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TWA Service To Berlin  
User currently offlineUSPIT10L From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 3295 posts, RR: 7
Posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 3242 times:

Hi all. With the search function broken, I thought I'd give this question a stab. Sorry if it's been posted or asked before. What airport did TWA use in Berlin? I have a January 14, 1990 system timetable from TWA that has Berlin-Frankfurt nonstop service twice a day. The flight numbers were TW931 and TW933, with TW931 changing aircraft in FRA and then going to JFK. There are no flight routings in the back of the book and there is no airport offices listing in the timetable either. Just route maps, general information and flight schedules. Anyone know out there? Thanks in advance.


It's a Great Day for Hockey!
19 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineLaxintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26013 posts, RR: 50
Reply 1, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 3224 times:

Tegel,

Not listed as that is the only airport US carriers used by that time. Remember Berlin was a divided city for several decades.

TW also operated a BRU-TXL flight using 721s for a little while.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineUSPIT10L From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 3295 posts, RR: 7
Reply 2, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 3222 times:

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 1):
Not listed as that is the only airport US carriers used by that time. Remember Berlin was a divided city for several decades.

But what about the IGS services from PA? Those weren't sold until 1991, and they were all from THF.

Thanks for the info.



It's a Great Day for Hockey!
User currently offlineAntonovman From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2001, 722 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 3209 times:

"But what about the IGS services from PA? Those weren't sold until 1991, and they were all from THF."
they werent, the majority were from TXL, PanAm did buy out a small airline called Templehof Airlines I think and got their ATR's but that didnt last long


User currently offlinePanAm747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4242 posts, RR: 8
Reply 4, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 3193 times:

After WWII, the three powers in West Berlin allowed only one airline from each of the countries to serve West Berlin - Air France, BEA, and Pan Am. No other airlines were able to serve West Berlin.

After the fall of the Berlin Wall, the city was no longer a "Special Military Zone". The rules that limited air service no longer applied. Airlines were free to begin service as they wish - that is why TWA tried Brussells-Berlin (as a tag-on).

I wonder if the problems of the small size of Berlin's airports have kept airlines from establishing large amounts of service. With the crowding of FRA and the opening of BBI, maybe the situation will change.



Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
User currently offlineLaxintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26013 posts, RR: 50
Reply 5, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 3175 times:

Quoting USPIT10L (Reply 2):
But what about the IGS services from PA? Those weren't sold until 1991, and they were all from THF.

All the Pan Am IGS services using B727s & Airbus equipment operated from Tegel. PA moved to Tegel in the mid 70s.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineCedarjet From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 8165 posts, RR: 54
Reply 6, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 3163 times:

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 5):
All the Pan Am IGS services using B727s & Airbus equipment operated from Tegel. PA moved to Tegel in the mid 70s.



Quoting Antonovman (Reply 3):
the majority were from TXL, PanAm did buy out a small airline called Templehof Airlines I think and got their ATR's but that didnt last long

Where are you getting your information?! Templehof always got plenty of Pan Am flying, and not with piddly ATRs either.

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fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
User currently offlineLaxintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26013 posts, RR: 50
Reply 7, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 3142 times:

Quoting Cedarjet (Reply 6):
Where are you getting your information?! Templehof always got plenty of Pan Am flying, and not with piddly ATRs either.

Like I said... Pan Am IGS moved to Tegel in the mid 70s.
Just look at the date of your pictures at THF.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineVV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7681 posts, RR: 17
Reply 8, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 3142 times:

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 4):
After WWII, the three powers in West Berlin allowed only one airline from each of the countries to serve West Berlin - Air France, BEA, and Pan Am. No other airlines were able to serve West Berlin.

This arrangement did not last until the fall of the Berlin wall. I recall seeing Dan Air aircraft at TXL on a journey from London to the Leipzig Spring Fair via Checkpoint Charlie in the Berlin Wall in the mid 80s. This is confirmed below:

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User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9658 posts, RR: 31
Reply 9, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 3100 times:

I do not remember the exact year when the BE and PA ops moved to TXLbut it was in the early to mid 70s.

Before that, PA had 727 serivice to THF and BE had Bac 1-11s, I have been on both many times. AF always used TXL and at times, the 2 daily Caravelles ORY-DUS-TXL were the only scheduled services at that airport.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently onlineHB-IWC From Indonesia, joined Sep 2000, 4513 posts, RR: 72
Reply 10, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 3082 times:

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 1):
TW also operated a BRU-TXL flight using 721s for a little while

And also a TXL-BRU-JFK service, all the way with B767. I took it twice from BRU to JFK and the flight originated in TXL as a same aircraft service. It was early 90s.


User currently offlineIADLHR From Italy, joined Apr 2005, 735 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 3035 times:

In May, 1994 I flew TW from IAD-CDG-TXL-CDG-IAD Just the other day I ran across some old notes from that trip. Anyway, one way, cant remember which way it was there was one stop IAD-CDG-TXL. Cant remember which leg that was. On the other leg it was a change @ CDG. Sorry I cant be more precise.
If I remmber correctly, it seemed that prior to my trip TW was more or less experimenting where to stop in Europe on the way to TXL. It so happened that when my trip took place it was @CDG.


User currently offlineMats From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 633 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 3014 times:

I remember seeing a TWA flight at Tegel in 1992. I think it was an L1011 (probably an L15). I'm 90 percent sure it was a Lockheed, not a 767. The flight was to JFK via Copenhagen.

User currently offlineUSPIT10L From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 3295 posts, RR: 7
Reply 13, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 2882 times:

Quoting IADLHR (Reply 11):
In May, 1994 I flew TW from IAD-CDG-TXL-CDG-IAD Just the other day I ran across some old notes from that trip. Anyway, one way, cant remember which way it was there was one stop IAD-CDG-TXL. Cant remember which leg that was. On the other leg it was a change @ CDG. Sorry I cant be more precise.
If I remmber correctly, it seemed that prior to my trip TW was more or less experimenting where to stop in Europe on the way to TXL. It so happened that when my trip took place it was @CDG.

IIRC, TW tried to build a hub at CDG around '93 or '94. I remember seeing a map of CDG1 in a TWA schedule around that time. TW's history has fascinated me ever since AA bought them in 2001. They were the first major airline to fly to PIT, starting service way back in 1930. They were also the first to open a reservations center and fly transatlantic from PIT, running PHL-PIT-LGW in the summer of 1981, the year I was born. Thanks for the replies, I should've posted on this stuff sooner.



It's a Great Day for Hockey!
User currently offlineTWACaptain From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 29 posts, RR: 3
Reply 14, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 2820 times:
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I was one of the pilots on the TWA IGS operation in 1989 so I can hopefully answer your question with some expertise. TWA operated from 2-3 gates at Tegel (TXL) using a fleet of four 727-31s at any one time (they were rotated back to the USA on a regular basis). Although the schedule did vary seasonally, at various times, TWA operated 5x daily TXL-FRA, 3x TXL-HAM, 2x TXL-NUE, 2x TXL-STR, 3x TXL-MUC. Additionally, flights were also operated to AMS, BRU, CDG, GVA and ZRH although most of these routes didn't last very long.

During the closing days of the IGS, it was decided that the 727-31s were too expensive to operate in Europre and three DC9-30s were en route to TXL to replace them when someone at headquarters realized the aircraft leases precluded them from being operated outside of the continental US and they had to call the aircraft back before they left Gander for Europe.

Hope this helps.

Glenn



TWA-Gone, but not forgotten...
User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7088 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 2809 times:

Tegel was the main airport in West-Berlin. Untill 1990 they were only a few airlines operating from Tegel:
-Pan Am (and Pan Am Express)
-British Airways
-Air France
-TWA
-Dan Air
-Air Berlin USA
-EuroBerlin France (AF and LH cooperation)

Tempelhof was the Military Airport for the US, Gatow was used by the British Army and Tegel North was used by the Frensh Military.
Tempelhof was the main airport untill Tegel was opened in the 1970s (I believe it was 1974).

Quoting Antonovman (Reply 3):
PanAm did buy out a small airline called Templehof Airlines I think and got their ATR's but that didnt last long

Tempelhof Airways was a small regional carrier operating from Tempelhof using Nord 262 and later Saab 340 aircraft and had no connection with Pan Am
Express as far as I know

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It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineTriStar500 From Germany, joined Nov 1999, 4695 posts, RR: 42
Reply 16, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2768 times:

Quoting Mats (Reply 12):
I think it was an L1011 (probably an L15).

You were most likely on an L1011-50 or -100, since TW did not operate the -500.



Homer: Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9658 posts, RR: 31
Reply 17, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2742 times:

Columba has compiled a good list of airlines serving Berlin. Add Modern Air, (operating CV990s) and it is complete.

TWA's services were short lived indeed. They came at a wrong time (LH gained full access after the 4 + 2 treaty was signed) and with the wrong aircraft, I did not hear the story about the DC9s but it completes the picture, Wonder how much money they lost on this adventure.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7088 posts, RR: 4
Reply 18, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2712 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 17):
I did not hear the story about the DC9s

I remember seeing a TWA MD 80 once but it also could have been a Dc 9 - it is around 20 years ago.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 17):
Add Modern Air, (operating CV990s) and it is complete.

Yes, I did not add Modern Air because I felt it played only a minor role in Berlin and I believe they were not around in the late 80s anymore.

Can somebody please tell me what happened with the EuroBerlin France 737s ?
Were they LH/AF owned aircraft or leased ones ?



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineAA717driver From United States of America, joined Feb 2002, 1566 posts, RR: 13
Reply 19, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 2640 times:

Like TWACaptain said, the DC9's (or MD80's for that matter) never operated in Europe.

I flew the JFK-BRU-TXL route in Jan '91 and later did JFK-AMS-TXL a couple of times after than (notably on the day that Carl Icahn was forced out of TWA).

TWA had a CDG hub for a long time before the '93-'94 time frame. It was not uncommon to arrive at CDG and find a couple of 767's, a couple of 747's, three or four L1011's and a 727-131 or two there.

I missed out on the pilot base there...  Sad TC



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