TTailSteve From United States, joined May 2006, 57 posts, RR: 0 Posted (2 years 3 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 4270 times:
When Delta bought alot of PAs assets and routes should they have purchased their logo and name as well? Would it have been or would it be today even advantages to re-brand their international operations under the Pan American name?
The name has little value in the US today but back when PA and Delta were talking about a merger and Delta injected cash in PA the name still had value. Also, I travel internationally frequently and I would say the Pan Am name is still well know in alot of foreign countries. The Delta name and widget has little value or meaning to many outside of the US, even in countries Delta serves currently.
Most American carriers didn't have much name recognition outside of the TWA and Pan Am brands even into the early 1990s. I had a friend who knew friend who's cousin (just kidding I really did have a friend who worked for American Airlines in the Pubic Relations dept in the late 80s and early 90s. His job at one point was to advise the company VPs and such about local customs so as not to offend when traveling for business, he spoke several languages as well) He told me on more than one oaccasion when calling or even visiting a foreign country in person to talk about starting service when he and his party would say "Hi we are with American Airlines." often times the response was which one: Pan Am or TWA?
I alwasy found this interesting that no one ever capitalized on the Pan Am and TWA legacy and trademark. Of course AA is to aggogant to consider it and I know the Pan Am name bounced around several times but never was used even close to its full extent.
GQfluffy From United States, joined Apr 2005, 2715 posts, RR: 4 Reply 1, posted (2 years 3 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 4255 times:
Yeah, here's a thought. TWA and Pan Am are dead, long gone, never coming back, etc. DL did the right thing and DIDN'T buy the Pan Am name, regardless of how well-known the name is in other countries. Same with AA. I just don't understand why people can't leave well enough alone...
Dtwclipper From United States, joined Oct 2003, 6491 posts, RR: 29 Reply 2, posted (2 years 3 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 4234 times:
Quoting TTailSteve (Thread starter): Would it have been or would it be today even advantages to re-brand their international operations under the Pan American name?
No, by the time Pan Am I died, it was a tarnished brand, and a target of international terrorism.
People were avoiding Pan Am in droves, and if Delta had taken over the name, they would have had a huge image problem.
In spite of the fact that I am a Pan Am history fan, we need to understand what Pan Am was like in the 80's. It was a run down company, a shadow of it's former self, and trying desperatly to survive on its former glory!
Flying PA in the late 80's was always a challenge...delays, mechanicals and slipshod service.
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TymnBalewne From United States, joined Mar 2005, 470 posts, RR: 0 Reply 3, posted (2 years 3 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 4210 times:
Quoting GQfluffy (Reply 1): I alwasy found this interesting that no one ever capitalized on the Pan Am and TWA legacy and trademark.
Actually, that's a pretty good observation. America West took the USAirways name based on the fact that it was more well-known.
Delta at the time wasn't a global presence and Pan Am was. I guess for DL and PA, (I believe) it wasn't a merger so DL didn't have the rights to the PA name. I can't see a company buying another company's name from a bankruptcy court just because the name has a greater global reach. Had DL and PA actually merged, then, yes, I could see the surviving entity taking the PA name.
AA and TW was a merger of sorts. My completely uninformed guess is that AA's name was already well known around the world and TW had very bad publicity in the wake of TW800 so it probably wasn't a good time to take the TW name. If the merger had occurred during times of better publicity for TW then I would think it would feasible that the TW name survive.
Steeler83 From United States, joined Feb 2006, 6072 posts, RR: 10 Reply 4, posted (2 years 3 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 4210 times:
There is another airline out there flying around with the PanAm name and logo. I do think it is neat to still see planes flying around with the PanAm livery on it, but the fact that it really is not PanAm just makes that rather laim. It is some airline apparently making some lame-ass attempt to increase its credibility somehow. "We're John-doe Airways, but we fly with the PanAm livery so you'll think we're a great airline..." Umm... whatever...
The only airline that should use the PanAm livery is PanAm, and PanAm is gone. So, unfortunately, the PanAm livery should probably just be retired, rendered historic, etc and not be used again IMO...
TTailSteve From United States, joined May 2006, 57 posts, RR: 0 Reply 6, posted (2 years 3 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 4146 times:
Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 2): No, by the time Pan Am I died, it was a tarnished brand, and a target of international terrorism.
People were avoiding Pan Am in droves, and if Delta had taken over the name, they would have had a huge image problem
Any airline that is owned by an American (or British or Israel for that matter) company is a target of terrorism no matter what the name. Extremest terrorists hate Americans and would like to see nothing more than dead American bodies regardless of the name on the plane.
Pan Am was the target of only 1 successful terrorist attack in the late 80 and early 90s so I'm not really sure you could say they had an endemic problem. Also, the reason there was a bomb on the Pan Am plane was most likely baggage transferred onto the plane from another flight that was not a Pan Am flight.
Delta did have, however, a huge image problem with regard to international flying after taking over many of Pan Ams routes. People didn't fly Delta internationally which is evidenced by the fact many of the destinations were cancelled shortly after Delta started flying them and only now is Delta even starting to re-build its international division. How many destinations did Delta have the rights to an never used them or only serviced them for a short period of time?
I would argue it was Delta's lack of being known as an international airline hurt it more than if they had flown those routes under the Pan Am name with increased customer service and cleaned-up airplanes. Its better to be known with some bad publicity than to be not known at all. People forget easily and any service problems Pan Am had, perceived or real, could be addressed and corrected. At least they had a name that was well know. I can guarantee you if you did a poll in early 90's Pan Am would have name recognition and Delta would have much lower in any in many many many international markets.
Many people even when they complain about something will choose a company with a name they know over one they do not. There is an intrinsic value in being known even with come bad publicity than being totally unknown.
Jetdeltamsy From United States, joined Nov 2000, 2922 posts, RR: 6 Reply 7, posted (2 years 3 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 4146 times:
At the time (REMEMBER...I say "at the time") of the acquisition, Delta enjoyed a significantly better reputation for quality service than Pan Am. Pan Am had been in decline for over a decade. The name, while recognized around the globe, no longer represented high quality...and the Delta brand did.
It was time for the Pan Am brand to die....IMHO.
Worked for too many airlines to list. Banktupcy after bankruptcy after bankruptcy.
CIDflyer From United States, joined Apr 2005, 1098 posts, RR: 2 Reply 8, posted (2 years 3 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 4055 times:
didn't Delta inherit some sort of hub in FRA after they bought some of the PanAm assets? I'm thinking they rand it for a majority of the 90's, but cannot remember. Whatever happened to the DL FRA hub?
DeltaSFO From United States, joined Nov 2000, 2488 posts, RR: 25 Reply 9, posted (2 years 3 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 4046 times:
Quoting CIDflyer (Reply 8): Whatever happened to the DL FRA hub?
Yes, Delta inherited it, but it's long gone. Some vestiges remain, however: Delta still operates a Flight Control center there which is a nice source of insourcing revenue.
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ClassicLover From Ireland, joined Mar 2004, 3337 posts, RR: 15 Reply 10, posted (2 years 3 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 4036 times:
Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 7): The name, while recognized around the globe, no longer represented high quality...and the Delta brand did.
True, Pan Am didn't mean high quality at the end. It doesn't mean that the people who worked for them didn't strive to the nth degree. I've read stories of low catering and crew (illegally) giving their crew meals so all the pax would have something to eat.
That said, people I know to this day can recognise the Pan Am logo over and above most other airlines.
I choose to fly oneworld, as a member of Qantas Frequent Flyer.
BR715-A1-30 From , joined today!, posts, RR: Reply 11, posted (2 years 3 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 3998 times:
Quoting TTailSteve (Thread starter): I really did have a friend who worked for American Airlines in the Pubic Relations dept in the late 80s
REALLY!?!?!?!? Ask him what THAT'S like...
Ok, as for the topic, I wish DL would have bought the name and logo.. If for nothing else, they would have been able to protect it from the vulchers who use it for worthless trash today. Pan Am was a symbol of America, and now they have been reduced to a bunch of railroad cars, and 727-200s that have outlived their gracefulness of the skies. (I'm not dogging the 727, just saying that the current Pan Am has disgraced what was once a very prestigious 727 fleet)
Dtwclipper From United States, joined Oct 2003, 6491 posts, RR: 29 Reply 12, posted (2 years 3 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 3991 times:
Quoting TTailSteve (Reply 6): Pan Am was the target of only 1 successful terrorist attack in the late 80 and early 90s
Here are a few others for starters.
Clipper Empress of the Seas 09/05/1986 Boeing B-747(N656PA)
Location: Karachi, Pakistan
383 Aboard / 16 Fatal
Hijacking. Sixteen passengers killed while on ground
Clipper Celestial 12/17/1973 Boeing B-707-321A(N407PA)
Location: Rome, Italy Time: 13:00
Route: Rome - Beirut
177 Aboard / 30 Fatal
Two phosphorus bombs thrown into the aircraft ready for departure. The terrorists were arrested and found guilty
MarkATL From United States, joined Jul 2004, 507 posts, RR: 8 Reply 13, posted (2 years 3 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 3914 times:
People like to romantisize the whole Pan Am experience. The bottom line was in 1991 the Pan Am name was very well recognized, yes, all over the world.....as an airline to AVOID! They were a shadow of the Pan Am that was under Juan Tripp. Their service and equipment were garbage. Their shoddy security was very publicly shown to be partially responsible for the 103 disaster. This was even after they started a highly publisized security fee (advertised for the safety of their passengers). The funds were actually diverted to general corporate funds. It was infact nothing more than a revenue enhancing "junk fee".
I know Delta passed passed up the opertunity for naming rights of the Pan Am (Met Life) building in NY. However, Pan Am's name was not for sale to Delta. They were going to make their last stand "where it all began" in Latin America. United was actually the surviving entity in the Pan Am story. Delta mearly bought some assets PRIOR to their demise.
"...left my home in Georgia, 'n headed for the "Frisco" Bay...
TTailSteve From United States, joined May 2006, 57 posts, RR: 0 Reply 14, posted (2 years 3 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 3909 times:
Quoting BR715-A1-30 (Reply 11): Quoting TTailSteve (Thread starter):
I really did have a friend who worked for American Airlines in the Pubic Relations dept in the late 80s
REALLY!?!?!?!? Ask him what THAT'S like...
That's why he quit workign there, he had a worker's comp claim from rug burn. That was a funny mistake on my part. Of course I mean public relations dept.
Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 12): Quoting TTailSteve (Reply 6):
Pan Am was the target of only 1 successful terrorist attack in the late 80 and early 90s
Here are a few others for starters.
Clipper Empress of the Seas 09/05/1986 Boeing B-747(N656PA)
Location: Karachi, Pakistan
383 Aboard / 16 Fatal
Hijacking. Sixteen passengers killed while on ground
I said late 80 early 90's not sure if 1986 counts as late 80's ut in my mind 86 is mid 80s. Not trying to split hairs but I am aware of Pan Am's history and terrorist incidents but I qualified my comment to late 80s and early 90s specficaly for this reason. I doubt many people remembered incidents earlie when the Locerbie incident occured.
Clipper Celestial 12/17/1973 Boeing B-707-321A(N407PA)
Location: Rome, Italy Time: 13:00
Route: Rome - Beirut
177 Aboard / 30 Fatal
Two phosphorus bombs thrown into the aircraft ready for departure. The terrorists were arrested and found guilty
There was also another where a bomb blew up in the cabin killing a japanese pax.
Well 1970 is petty far off late 80s and early 90s. I am again aware of these incidents howver I belive the majority of people didn't remember them when the Lockerbie crash occured.
Dtwclipper From United States, joined Oct 2003, 6491 posts, RR: 29 Reply 15, posted (2 years 3 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 3868 times:
Quoting TTailSteve (Reply 14): Well 1970 is petty far off late 80s and early 90s. I am again aware of these incidents howver I belive the majority of people didn't remember them when the Lockerbie crash occured.
Pan Am was seen as America abroad, and believe it or not was seen as a target. There were many corporations in the 80's that had a policy of not placing their employees on Pan Am, even before 103.
Pan Am could never recover, and their reputation abroad was even worse.
A revisionist history of Pan Am is what most people here like to remember, but that is not truth. I flew Pan Am regularly across the pond and Latin America in the 80's...it was a sad sight.
Now, in the 70's and before, that was a different story!
There are some excellent books on the downfall of Pan Am, I can suggest some of them to you which will give you an understanding of the truth behind the downfall of Pan Am.
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Vegasplanes From United States, joined Jun 2005, 661 posts, RR: 2 Reply 16, posted (2 years 3 months 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 3861 times:
Quoting TTailSteve (Reply 6): Delta did have, however, a huge image problem with regard to international flying after taking over many of Pan Ams routes. People didn't fly Delta internationally which is evidenced by the fact many of the destinations were cancelled shortly after Delta started flying them
DL also had a timing problem. When they bought the PA routes, the American economy was going into recession along with Gulf War reducing demand for international travel. Had they bought they routes say in the mid-80's when UA acquired PA's pacific division, DL probably would have minted money on those routes just as UA did in the pacific.
Dtwclipper From United States, joined Oct 2003, 6491 posts, RR: 29 Reply 19, posted (2 years 3 months 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 3789 times:
By the way, other than Texas International and America West, I can't think of any other airline mergers where the takeover targets branding was retained.
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