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A330 Dual Flame Out  
User currently offlineAirbuspilot From Belgium, joined Apr 2000, 416 posts, RR: 2
Posted (8 years 3 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 22956 times:

There are some rumours floating around on the net that an international carrier last week had a dual engine flame out somewhere over china on a brand new A330.

The incident happend in heavy rain during descent...

Any more news available?

84 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDogfighter2111 From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2004, 1968 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (8 years 3 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 22855 times:

Hey,

I really doubt this, as the Press and ofcourse members of A.net would be on to it within 5 hours of the incident. Not much get's past the people in here.

Thanks
Mike


User currently offlineATLFlyer323 From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 614 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (8 years 3 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 22840 times:

Have to agree with DogFighter here I would think that we would have heard about it. If it is true though and no one on A.Net happened to have posted it then I'm going to be excited to hear what happened, keep us posted if you do find anything out.

~Brandon



Everyday, the fluffy temptation of wheat!
User currently offlineDtw9 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1156 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (8 years 3 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 22468 times:

Here you go,


DATE: 01.06.2006 LOCAL TIME: evening LOCATION: Shanghai-Intl AP (ZSPD) COUNTRY: China
AIRLINE: Qatar AW TYPE: Airbus A330-202 REGISTRATION: A7-ACJ C/N: 746 AGE: 0 y + 1 m
OPERATION: ISP FLIGHT No.: - FROM: Shanghai TO: Doha VIA: -
OCCUPANTS: PAX: - CREW: -
FATALITIES: PAX: 0 CREW: 0 OTHER: 0
INJURIES: PAX: 0 CREW: 0 OTHER: 0
DAMAGE TO AIRCRAFT: minor / none
After take off, the aircraft suffered a double engine flameout due to unknown reasons. However the pilots managed to restart both engines and returned safely to Shanghai.
SOURCE(S): PPRuNe


User currently offlineABQopsHP From United States of America, joined May 2006, 850 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (8 years 3 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 22438 times:

Holy cow! Reminds me of the AirTransat A330 incident over the Atlantic, back in 2001.


A line is evidence that other people exist.
User currently offlineYWG From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 1146 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (8 years 3 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 21813 times:

All I can say is wow....that's at the point where you start to get a little scared.


Contact Winnipeg center now on 134.4, good day.
User currently offlineJetdeltamsy From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 2987 posts, RR: 8
Reply 6, posted (8 years 3 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 21409 times:

Quoting ABQopsHP (Reply 4):
Holy cow! Reminds me of the AirTransat A330 incident over the Atlantic, back in 2001.

Or of Pan Am 759 in Kenner, LA back in July 9, 1982. All 3 engines were "snuffed out" when the aircraft flew into a "wall of water". The Cockpit Data Recorded indicated the pilots tried to restart the engines without success, killing all but one lap child on board and eight poor souls sitting in their homes.

I drove by heading home about 3 minutes after it went down. While I couldn't see the crash site, the flames and smoke were beyond anything I have ever seen before.



Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
User currently offlineUA777222 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 3348 posts, RR: 11
Reply 7, posted (8 years 3 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 21339 times:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Stal Guillaume



Not even an offical pic of the aircraft in the DB. Wow, must be that new.

Best.

Matt



"It wasn't raining when Noah built the ark."
User currently offlineKLM685 From Mexico, joined May 2005, 1577 posts, RR: 19
Reply 8, posted (8 years 3 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 21264 times:

So this means that such severe rain probably caused both engines to flame out?! :S It must have been VERY scary

I wonder what was their altittude in order to make such a succesful engine restart.



KLM- The Best Airline in the World!
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31679 posts, RR: 56
Reply 9, posted (8 years 3 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 21264 times:

Was there Turbulence/Bad weather.
regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineKaddyuk From Wallis and Futuna, joined Nov 2001, 4126 posts, RR: 26
Reply 10, posted (8 years 3 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 20872 times:

Quoting KLM685 (Reply 8):
I wonder what was their altittude in order to make such a succesful engine restart.

Altitude doesnt helps start engines, airspeed does... However if you've got altitude, you can turn that into airspeed if required...



Whoever said "laughter is the best medicine" never had Gonorrhea
User currently offlineKLM685 From Mexico, joined May 2005, 1577 posts, RR: 19
Reply 11, posted (8 years 3 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 20677 times:

Quoting Kaddyuk (Reply 10):
However if you've got altitude, you can turn that into airspeed if required...

precisely that's my question.



KLM- The Best Airline in the World!
User currently offlinePilotaydin From Turkey, joined Sep 2004, 2539 posts, RR: 51
Reply 12, posted (8 years 3 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 19592 times:

Quoting Kaddyuk (Reply 10):
Altitude doesnt helps start engines, airspeed does... However if you've got altitude, you can turn that into airspeed if required...

you're contradicting yourself....


I don't know the procedure in the Airbus, in the 737 you don't nose dive whatsoever in a double flamout, you set clean speed for max glide, and if your N2 is below 15% then you use a started assist to restart the puppies, otherwise you can switch your ignition to both and raise the start levers....

I don't know what the equivilant of continuous ignition is in the bus, but if you don't turn it on during heavy precip you get high ice build up, or flameout



The only time there is too much fuel onboard, is when you're on fire!
User currently offlineAirIndia From United Arab Emirates, joined Jan 2001, 1641 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (8 years 3 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 19592 times:

Quoting Kaddyuk (Reply 10):
Altitude doesnt helps start engines, airspeed does

How does airspeed help restart engines?


User currently offlineRichardPrice From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (8 years 3 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 19555 times:

Quoting AirIndia (Reply 13):
How does airspeed help restart engines?

Spins the fan and compressors.


User currently offlineTedTAce From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (8 years 3 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 19508 times:

Quoting AirIndia (Reply 13):
How does airspeed help restart engines?

Less energy required to get them going again.


User currently offlineTurbulence From Spain, joined Nov 1999, 963 posts, RR: 20
Reply 16, posted (8 years 3 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 18941 times:

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 9):
Was there Turbulence/Bad weather.
regds
MEL

I was not there, I swear it...  Wink

Anyway, it must be very scary... But, if the report is accurated, there's no word (hehehe... number?) on occupants, was it a test flight? a delivery one? positional?

Enjoy turbulence!!!


User currently offlineFlywithjohn From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 122 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (8 years 3 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 18523 times:

This only a joke no need to start one tghe A and B wars but thats why I don't like Airbus AIrcraft that being said if the weather was so bad I wonder why they were not gorund delayed?


Always Blue Sky's.....
User currently offlineBuckFifty From Canada, joined Oct 2001, 1316 posts, RR: 19
Reply 18, posted (8 years 3 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 18440 times:

Quoting Kaddyuk (Reply 10):
Altitude doesnt helps start engines, airspeed does... However if you've got altitude, you can turn that into airspeed if required...

That's incorrect, actually. Air density at higher altitudes usually will prevent a windmilling start. However, depending on the temperature, it can still be done. Yet windmilling starts usually have a max guaranteed altitude, for the 330 it is somewhere in the region of 28,000'. So the lower you are, the better chance of you getting a relight, with the ignition on and a high airspeed (300kts +)

The other option in this scenario is an APU assisted start (since there are no engines operating). However, APU as a bleed supply on the 330 is ineffective above 22,500'. Therefore, if the windmill start is ineffective (i.e. in heavy rain), then you'll have to go even lower to get things going again.


User currently offlineOlympicbis From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (8 years 3 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 18341 times:

Quoting Flywithjohn (Reply 17):
thats why I don't like Airbus AIrcraft

Variants of the engines which power this kind of Airbus aircraft are often to be found on 767s and 747......


User currently offlineOHLHD From Finland, joined Dec 2004, 3962 posts, RR: 25
Reply 20, posted (8 years 3 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 18341 times:

Quoting Turbulence (Reply 16):
Anyway, it must be very scary... But, if the report is accurated, there's no word (hehehe... number?) on occupants, was it a test flight? a delivery one? positional?

It was a pax QR flight .


User currently offlineFlywithjohn From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 122 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (8 years 3 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 18300 times:

Quoting Olympicbis (Reply 19):
Variants of the engines which power this kind of Airbus aircraft are often to be found on 767s and 747......

refer to line before that

Quoting Flywithjohn (Reply 17):
This only a joke no need to start one the A and B wars



Always Blue Sky's.....
User currently offlineBuckFifty From Canada, joined Oct 2001, 1316 posts, RR: 19
Reply 22, posted (8 years 3 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 18199 times:

Quoting Flywithjohn (Reply 17):
This only a joke no need to start one tghe A and B wars but thats why I don't like Airbus AIrcraft that being said if the weather was so bad I wonder why they were not gorund delayed?

If one does not turn on ignition during torrential rain, no matter what the aircraft, it will flame out. Boeings, Gulftreams, Airbii, all included. However, this is not to say that what happened actually was for this reason. But pilot error certainly cannot be discounted.

That said, on the 330, if a flame out is detected and the engines are running, the ignition will turn themselves on automatically. An automatically relight will commence regardless of pilot actions. That said, it's best to put the switch to IGN just to confirm that an auto start will happen.

Quoting Pilotaydin (Reply 12):
I don't know the procedure in the Airbus, in the 737 you don't nose dive whatsoever in a double flamout, you set clean speed for max glide, and if your N2 is below 15% then you use a started assist to restart the puppies, otherwise you can switch your ignition to both and raise the start levers....

I don't know what the equivilant of continuous ignition is in the bus, but if you don't turn it on during heavy precip you get high ice build up, or flameout

We'll only go back to green dot (best glide) speed if the windmill assisted relight doesn't work. Generally speaking, if you have four engines (on the 340), it is much better to attempt a windmill start, as you can get all four going at the same time. With a bleed assisted start, not only will you use significant altitude, but bleed from the APU is generally only sufficient to start one engine at a time.

With two engines, I would use the same procedure. However, the aircraft should have been pointed at the nearest airport by this time.


User currently offlineFlywithjohn From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 122 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (8 years 3 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 18107 times:

Quoting BuckFifty (Reply 22):
If one does not turn on ignition during torrential rain, no matter what the aircraft, it will flame out. Boeings, Gulftreams, Airbii, all included.

I learned the same things in school like I said read the first four words I personally don't mind airbus of boeing I like McDonnell Douglas so I like my MD10 MD11 but not so much the DC10
I wonder why I had to say it you just can't do that in todays world somebody always takes it serious.



Always Blue Sky's.....
User currently offlineBuckFifty From Canada, joined Oct 2001, 1316 posts, RR: 19
Reply 24, posted (8 years 3 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 18054 times:

Quoting Flywithjohn (Reply 23):
I learned the same things in school like I said read the first four words I personally don't mind airbus of boeing I like McDonnell Douglas so I like my MD10 MD11 but not so much the DC10
I wonder why I had to say it you just can't do that in todays world somebody always takes it serious.

Just stating the facts, really, not intended to rebuke you in anyway.

That said, however, it was really quite a lame joke. It has absolutely no relevancy whatsoever to what is being discussed here. Perhaps some tact would have been useful in order not to get yourself flamed.


25 Post contains images Solnabo : Air Transat´s A330 ran out of fuel, not a flame out, the world longest glider flight on a pax a/c to the Azores Micke//SWE
26 Aerosol : Spec: Contaminated jet fuel? I heard they have issues with this problems in China.
27 Flywithjohn : not rebuke just trying to keep a A&B war from starting besides nothing wrong with a good flaming but still why did they take off if the weather was s
28 Post contains images David L : So the joke is that you don't like Airbus aircraft because they can suffer the same fate as other types? I don't get it.
29 Breiz : BuckFifty, just for the fun of it, the latin plural of Airbus would have been Airbi (if second declension) or Airbus (if fourth declension). Airbii w
30 BuckFifty : We have very little information as to what the circumstances were. Torrential downpours don't have to happen around the airfield, they could happen e
31 Post contains images David L : Yes, one of my pet peeves, too! Same with virus - viri. Sorry, BuckFifty, it didn't devalue your posts, certainly not as much as very poor punctuatio
32 BuckFifty : Oh no, not at all. I don't ever profess to be a grammatical genius. I do pride myself at never having to use the a.net spellchecker however...
33 Post contains images David L : Just to be clear, my punctuation comment wasn't aimed at you.
34 Post contains links Jbond : s/n 746 is A7-ACI, not ACJ http://www.planepictures.net/netshow.php?id=488245 seen last sunday at MAN too. A7-ACJ is s/n 760 in full n/c (never fly)
35 David L : I asked that question in another thread... ... and now I know the amswer. Cheers!
36 United787 : From the aviation safety network on PanAm 759: PROBABLE CAUSE: "The airplane's encounter during the lift-off and initial climb phase of flight with a
37 Post contains images A380Heavy : And the english translation of this is what exactly? - I think we need a grammar check as well as a spell check on this forum.
38 Post contains links Breiz : This is one of several occurrences linked to volcanoes: http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstra...ews%2fScience%2fTopics%2fVolcanoes Here is another one
39 Killjoy : Perhaps people would take your "jokes" less seriously if you learned to write legibly instead of having everyone spend a minute interpreting each sen
40 David L : Just out of interest, Flywithjohn, on what aircraft type are you an "FO for major cargo company"?
41 Post contains images Kaddyuk : Where in my reply did i say "nose dive"? I said you can exchange altitude for airspeed... the RATE at which you can do this is up to the pilot... Nic
42 Post contains links BuyantUkhaa : Airbus comes from the word "bus" which on its turn is short for the Latin word "omnibus" meaning "to everyone". As this is the dative plural of the w
43 Post contains images David L : Possibly just preventing anyone from interpreting it that way. You know what this place can be like! Guilty... but it's out of character, honestly.
44 Breiz : Thanks, BuyantUkhaa, I had forgotten about the "omnibus". Good reminder.
45 Pilotaydin : you don't need to....is there any other way to gain airspeed without thrust, at altitude? and your reply didn't talk about rates at all..
46 Post contains images David L : I agree but my view is that if someone wants to pretend "Airbus" is the nominative of a genuine noun, they shouldn't insert an extra "i". Being wrong
47 DAYflyer : The A-330 is a perfectly safe aircraft, Im sure there is a logical explination.
48 Post contains images MERLIN : Was Kaddyuk talkin bout starting?? Dude honestly if u r a B-737 pilot,u wwud have learnt this even before u actually start flying..wht kaddyuk really
49 Pilotaydin : if he did not mean rate? what are you talking about...he said it's not altitude that you need to start engines, it's airspeed, well how do you get th
50 BuckFifty : Yes. Altitude does figure into starting an engine. So yes, it helps. And what are you talking about?
51 Dennys : this A330 should be stopped . And exchanged for A340s . 4 jets are safer . denn
52 Pilotaydin : that's Virgin's marketting plan isn't it?
53 Post contains images David L : I'll see your 4 engines and raise you another 4... A340s and 747s should be banned. 8 engines are safer. And so on...
54 A320ajm : I would like to know the chances of both engines failing on any A330? Anybody any ideas?
55 Post contains links StevenG : Here's one example. It's in the same area which in the news these days for last week's devastating earthquake and the volcano Merapi which is about t
56 Post contains images Morvious : Thanks for this wonderfull information! Sounds smart enough.. Its good to have a hardware backup, just in case the software failes
57 Mlglaw : With reference to the discussion of the plural of airbus, I find it strange that aircraft are referred to in the feminine; however, the latinistas are
58 Post contains images David L : Aaaarghhh! Even wear it's very hot?
59 Post contains images Stretch : Wow, all I came in here to read about was a A330 flame out. Instead I'm seeing more flaming of posts in regards to grammar, spelling etc. Can we not s
60 Post contains images Scbriml : And it's Latin grammar!
61 Post contains images Breiz : Hei, come on. You get Latin grammar lessons for free, in addition to all the aviation stuff. Good deal I would say
62 Deltadude : no he's not.....read it CAREFULLY
63 Pilotaydin : i did...in the end altitude DOES help start the engines by being the provider of airspeed.... what's the problem here?
64 Glydrflyr : Back in the day, when I flew a Piper J3 Cub (N8863H), I would get it up to about 5,000 ft., even though it took just about all day, shut the engine of
65 PlaneHunter : Simple answer: no. PH
66 Post contains images Lightsaber : Nicely said. From my windmilling engineering days... there are two primary concernts: 1. Altitude (density, temperature) and 2. Mach number The relig
67 AR385 : Sometime in the early 90's a Delta airlines 767 taking off from LAX towards the ocean suffered a double flameout, at about 1000 ft. The F/O accidental
68 FlyPrivate : what altitude was he at when the flameout occured?
69 Flywithjohn : it's already in English I don't speak or write in habla bud My you never know what your going to learn on this website primarily MD-11 last if you do
70 Post contains images N600RR : Don't remember when it was (20 years +/-?), but an Eastern Air Lines L-1011 MIA-NAS had all 3 engines shut down. IIRC, the cause was faulty O-rings o
71 Brons2 : I will be sure to point out your comments on this thread to FedEx management, I'm sure they would be quite interested.
72 Post contains images MERLIN : Ok,you are right..this just got confussing .Neways Statements made are in no relation with the Airbus,but was in common. Yes Altitude does have direc
73 Flywithjohn : 1800-463-3339 you will however need my name to get anywhere....and on a side note fedex didn't teach me i learned that one in Florida although FDX re
74 Post contains links Brons2 : Send a comment to FedEx flight operations here: http://pilot.fedex.com/contact/index.shtml
75 BuckFifty : I guess I should say it, really. If you are really a pilot, your piloting sense is quite bad. I'll just copy and paste what I wrote from before. For
76 Milan320 : What exactly is that supposed to mean? Care to enlighten us? -Milan320
77 Toulouse : Only a joke, but must be said this is inly the second time this has happened to an Airbus. Now Airbus will have to study the matter closely and bring
78 CHRISBA777ER : Goodness how the rest of your countrymen must be embarassed to share a continent with you - the really smart, clever, intelligent, and helpful Boeing
79 Threepoint : Just a suggestion if I may: I think we're in unanimous agreement that flywithjohn has made some foolish comments and he may or may not be who he clai
80 Post contains links and images BuyantUkhaa : Grammar School ...and an interest in linguistics: Very briefly, a declension is a different form of the same word due to a different function in the
81 AR385 : You summary is essentially correct. But, thre's a catch. Engine #2 was the first to start showing trouble, so it was immediately shut down. Then they
82 David L : I'll second that. A doubt expressed here is one thing, the threat of whistleblowing is another matter entirely. Let's just say some of those 'in the
83 Post contains images N600RR : AR385, Thanks for fine tuning my fuzzy recollection of the incident, as well as the reference to the book (did not know about it).
84 Bahadir : Here's what Airbus has to say about it FROM : AIRBUS CUSTOMER SERVICES TOULOUSE > > TO : ALL A330 AIRBUS RESIDENT CUSTOMER SUPPORT MANAGERS > > OPERAT
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