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Qatar Airways May Drop A350 For B787  
User currently offlinePanAm_DC10 From Australia, joined Aug 2000, 4211 posts, RR: 89
Posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 10308 times:
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More on the recent report carried by FI on QRs plans on the A350 and the delay in development. Qatar Chief Executive Akbar Al Baker spoke in an interview today. The following is a fair use excerpt from Bloomberg

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=conews&tkr=ba:US

``We're not going to wait forever,'' Qatar Chief Executive Akbar Al Baker said today in an interview at the International Air Transport Association meeting in Paris. ``If things don't happen in the timeframe we want to happen, then of course we'll look somewhere else.''

[snip]

``They've changed the rules of the game,'' Al Baker said, referring to Airbus. ``They now want to build a bigger airplane, with a larger capacity, a bigger cross section and they've not yet submitted to us or given us the proposal on what this airplane will do or when it will be delivered.''

[snip]

``We as an airline have a business plan. We need to grow. And when there are delays in deliveries, we have to then rethink our fleet strategy. If they don't have their game in order, then it is their problem.''

Airbus spokeswoman Barbara Kracht declined to comment on the Qatar CEO's remarks. ``We don't comment on our relations with customers,'' she said. Qatar Airways is the state-owned airline of the Persian Gulf country.

[END - Fair use excerpt]

I wonder what QR are thinking of letting go of their 2008 - 2009 B787 delivery slots now? Of interest is that he's spoken of the initial changes for the model though it appears no timeframe on specific's has been provided. This could also shorten the odds on QR being the 20 777 UFO order booked last week.

Regards, PanAm_DC10


Ask the impossible to achieve the best possible
41 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDAYflyer From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 3807 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 10242 times:

Well, I'd say that is a pretty specific warning to Airbus that they need to quit fooling around on the design and get things moving forward.

The comments Airbus made recently about "late customer input" about the A-350 design fiasco, and these comments from a large customer had better be sending alarm bells ringing throught Airbus HQ that something is terribly wrong and needs radical change.

This is the third time in as many months that we have seen very negative customer feedback IN PUBLIC directed at this program. First, ILFC. Second was GECAS. And now we have Qatar. Anybody see a pattern developing here??



One Nation Under God
User currently offlineAtmx2000 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4576 posts, RR: 37
Reply 2, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 10242 times:

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Thread starter):
I wonder what QR are thinking of letting go of their 2008 - 2009 B787 delivery slots now? Of interest is that he's spoken of the initial changes for the model though it appears no timeframe on specific's has been provided. This could also shorten the odds on QR being the 20 777 UFO order booked last week.

Given that QR is unhedged on fuel and that Airbus isn't offering a A346E, I wouldn't be surprised that that QR goes ahead with the 777.

As for going the 787 route, I think they will have to be really irked at Airbus to do so. It is a bit embarrassing for al Baker and company to have jumped on the A350 and then to have to have to change back to Boeing.



ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
User currently offlineEbbUK From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 10219 times:

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Thread starter):
I wonder what QR are thinking of letting go of their 2008 - 2009 B787 delivery slots now? Of interest is that he's spoken of the initial changes for the model though it appears no timeframe on specific's has been provided. This could also shorten the odds on QR being the 20 777 UFO order booked last week.

They are looking at the A350, that seems to be disappering so they go for the T7? Not at all likely.

Sorry


User currently offlineFlying Belgian From Belgium, joined Jun 2001, 2397 posts, RR: 9
Reply 4, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 10188 times:
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It also shows how dependant of the Gulf Region both A & B are.

We all knew that QR's A350 order was artificial.

FB.



Life is great at 41.000 feet...
User currently offlineLeelaw From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 10143 times:

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Thread starter):
`They've changed the rules of the game,'' Al Baker said, referring to Airbus. ``They now want to build a bigger airplane, with a larger capacity, a bigger cross section and they've not yet submitted to us or given us the proposal on what this airplane will do or when it will be delivered.''

Al-Baker said last month:

“The trouble is, Airbus has lost a year.” He says he expects Airbus to be able to show him a firm specification for the new design “by early June.”

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...o+uncertainty+over+twinjet's.html

Perhaps they've already shown him something he doesn't like, his indignance seems marginally more vociferous than a couple of weeks ago?  Smile


User currently offlineStarrion From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1128 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 10045 times:

Isn't it expected that QR would be left feeling a little embarassed? They committed to 60 widebody aircraft. That's a huge business call. A lot of people put their reputations on the dotted line and said "We think the A350 is the best aircraft for our airline." Then the industry leaders said that the A350 was not competitive with the 787. And Airbus agrees with them (not in so many words) and starts this redesign.

How much egg does that leave on the faces of the people at QR that opted for the "less-competitive" aircraft, especially after abandoning early slots for the "superior" aircraft. If I were them I would be more than "irked", I'd be steaming angry. The question is, do they go back to Boeing hat-in-hand and hope to get something (presuming that Boeing opens the second line) or do they stick with the latest iteration of the A350?

Not the best choices. If the Board at QR had any power, heads would be rolling.



Knowledge Replaces Fear
User currently offlineJAL From Canada, joined Apr 2000, 5092 posts, RR: 8
Reply 7, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 10007 times:

Would love to see them order the 787!


Work Hard But Play Harder
User currently offlineAtmx2000 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4576 posts, RR: 37
Reply 8, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 9904 times:

Quoting EbbUK (Reply 3):
They are looking at the A350, that seems to be disappering so they go for the T7? Not at all likely.

They had said they were going to buy at least 20 777LRs last summer, but Airbus talked them into reopening the competition by dangling fuel cost rebates/guarantees and/or the A346E earlier this year. If they are annoyed with Airbus, one way they can show it is to firm the 777 order.



ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
User currently offline11Bravo From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1722 posts, RR: 10
Reply 9, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 9852 times:

Quoting Starrion (Reply 6):
They committed to 60 widebody aircraft.

Yes and no. They never signed a firm order and the statement from Paris last year "... up to 60 A350..." was ambiguous and suggested some combination of orders and options.

Quoting Starrion (Reply 6):
Isn't it expected that QR would be left feeling a little embarassed?

They will feel a lot more embarrassed if they spend several billion dollars on an aircraft that doesn't meet their needs, or if they have to drastically alter their fleet procurement schedule because of the additional two year delay in EIS.



WhaleJets Rule!
User currently offlinePanAm_DC10 From Australia, joined Aug 2000, 4211 posts, RR: 89
Reply 10, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 9804 times:
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Quoting EbbUK (Reply 3):
They are looking at the A350, that seems to be disappering so they go for the T7? Not at all likely.

Sorry

EbbUK My comment was in specific reference to Qatar's "imminent" decision as to whether they'll take 20 x A346HGW or 20 x 777 Series as they stated at Le Bourget 2005 and later retracted the 777 commitment. They have been publicly speaking of this order too, the A346HGWs being those which EK have deferred. QR need interim lift, because;

``We as an airline have a business plan. We need to grow. And when there are delays in deliveries, we have to then rethink our fleet strategy. If they don't have their game in order, then it is their problem.''

I feel they will most likely stay with Airbus for their interim requirements but one cannot deny that QRs public stance has hardened considerably and the 777 was never 100% out of the equation.

Regards, PanAm_DC10



Ask the impossible to achieve the best possible
User currently offlineEK413 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 4987 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 9755 times:

I dont blame Qatar Airways considering cancelling its A350 order & going for B787's!
My opinion Airbus has really lost a lot of ground with this A350 and they know it too! Good luck to Airbus on securing the orders it currently has in its books for the proposed A350....

EK413



Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
User currently offlineEbbUK From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 9653 times:

Quoting Starrion (Reply 6):

Not the best choices. If the Board at QR had any power, heads would be rolling.

Because Airbus was dragged back to the drawing board, the QR board must pay the price for the re-design, not only in terms of the lost order but with their livelyhood as well? A bit steep old chap!

Quoting JAL (Reply 7):
Would love to see them order the 787!

No please no. 787 can go to Emirates, but please QR stay on the 'bus


User currently offlineBoeing7E7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 9535 times:

In a nutshell, they're saying we don't need a 777 replacement, we need an A330/340 replacement.

User currently offlineAtmx2000 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4576 posts, RR: 37
Reply 14, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 9500 times:

Quoting EbbUK (Reply 15):
Because Airbus was dragged back to the drawing board, the QR board must pay the price for the re-design, not only in terms of the lost order but with their livelyhood as well? A bit steep old chap!

He meant that if the board had any power they would fire someone in management who approved the A350 order. Not that the board would lose their jobs.



ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 15, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 9479 times:

Quoting Starrion (Reply 6):
How much egg does that leave on the faces of the people at QR that opted for the "less-competitive" aircraft, especially after abandoning early slots for the "superior" aircraft. If I were them I would be more than "irked", I'd be steaming angry. The question is, do they go back to Boeing hat-in-hand and hope to get something (presuming that Boeing opens the second line) or do they stick with the latest iteration of the A350?

Al Baker wanted the aircraft in 2010. If Airbus commits to the re-design, then the only new-build aircraft he will be able to get by 2010 will be 767s, A330s, 748s, A340s, 777s...not A350s or 787s. In other words, he won't get the latest and greatest period. I can't see him going to Boeing on the 787; but that's just an opinion. I wouldn't be surprised to see Messrs Forgeard, Leahy, and Al Baker at a joint press conference at Farnborough this July talking about how they've put the "misunderstanding" behind them. QR may buy 777s but I seriously doubt they'll go for the 787. But that is only an (uninformed) opinion....



"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineEbbUK From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 9479 times:

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 17):
He meant that if the board had any power they would fire someone in management who approved the A350 order. Not that the board would lose their jobs.

No one at QR should pay the price for the Airbus re-design, surely?


User currently offlineMptpa From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 546 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 9435 times:

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 2):
As for going the 787 route, I think they will have to be really irked at Airbus to do so. It is a bit embarrassing for al Baker and company to have jumped on the A350 and then to have to have to change back to Boeing

Well, I do not think Mr. Al Bakar will be in an embarassing position, as he signed up for the Original A350, not the re-invented new design that the "others" seem to want Airbus to make. Hence, he can always say "I wanted an A350 as it was sized, in the time frame as it was stated. And now, everything is off whack therefore I need to look elsewhere".

This also lends credence to the fact they may be backtracking to take B777 as there is no A346E on the horizon. May be they should dump the A380 and go for a few B748i (could they be the UFO for the 3 B747 (I do not know if this is 744, 744F, 748F ir 748I).... Hmmmmm....


User currently offlineAtmx2000 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4576 posts, RR: 37
Reply 18, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 9416 times:

Quoting EbbUK (Reply 19):
No one at QR should pay the price for the Airbus re-design, surely?

They chose an aircraft that the rest of the airline industry trashed. In the process they gave up their early 787 slots, which other airlines, like QF, snatched up. Now their expansion plans are set back by the delay of whatever Airbus ends up offering, and 787 availability is backed up into 2011 for the most part unless Boeing opens up a 2nd line. And Airbus might not even offer a competitive model in the 200-270 pax capacity range to replace the previous A358 design. So the choice of the A350 will have a negative impact on QR's plans.



ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
User currently offlineKappel From Suriname, joined Jul 2005, 3533 posts, RR: 17
Reply 19, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 9382 times:

Quoting Mptpa (Reply 20):
B777 as there is no A346E on the horizon

When would teh a370-1000 go into service? also 2012 or later. If it is 2012, then it shouyld not be that big of a problem, as the a346E was to enter service in 2011. And the a370-1000 will no doubt be a much more capable aircraft (less attractive probably, but that's a different issue  Wink )



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User currently offlinePolymerPlane From United States of America, joined May 2006, 991 posts, RR: 3
Reply 20, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 9382 times:

Quoting EbbUK (Reply 19):
No one at QR should pay the price for the Airbus re-design, surely?

No, but they are committing to a "fictitious" aircraft family, at a cost of throwing away early slots for a damn good airplane. That is a bad business decision IMO. Granted I am saying this after the fact that QR might drop A350 for B787 because of the timeline. But a lot of punishment in business world is after the fact. You do not get forgiveness because you did not know about it earlier. You just pay the price of making wrong decision.

Cheers,
PP



One day there will be 100% polymer plane
User currently offlineMptpa From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 546 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 9359 times:

Quoting Starrion (Reply 6):
Isn't it expected that QR would be left feeling a little embarassed? They committed to 60 widebody aircraft. That's a huge business call. A lot of people put their reputations on the dotted line and said "We think the A350 is the best aircraft for our airline." Then the industry leaders said that the A350 was not competitive with the 787. And Airbus agrees with them (not in so many words) and starts this redesign.

Perhaps they got a SWEET deal (read as 50% off extraordinary launch customer as Airbus had no really big carrier ordering A350 at that time, and they needed much needed press) to sign up based on preliminary details, hence, it was an LOI, not order or commitment.

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 11):
Yes and no. They never signed a firm order and the statement from Paris last year "... up to 60 A350..." was ambiguous and suggested some combination of orders and options.

They said "upto 60" even though Airbus put in as "60" in absolute terms, and June is here again!!

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 18):
Al Baker wanted the aircraft in 2010. If Airbus commits to the re-design, then the only new-build aircraft he will be able to get by 2010 will be 767s, A330s, 748s, A340s, 777s...not A350s or 787s. In other words, he won't get the latest and greatest period. I can't see him going to Boeing on the 787; but that's just an opinion.

Perhaps, Boeing is leaning towards getting all the ducks in a row to open up a second line sooner than noted many... Perhaps, they will have dual lines by 2009/2010 hence QR can get a few 787s before 2010. Or, Boeing is releasing some slots held for special purposes (read as "carrots" to entice new entrants such as EK, SQ, LH etc.)

I am just speculating here.


User currently offlineAtmx2000 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4576 posts, RR: 37
Reply 22, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 9292 times:

Quoting Mptpa (Reply 20):
Well, I do not think Mr. Al Bakar will be in an embarassing position, as he signed up for the Original A350, not the re-invented new design that the "others" seem to want Airbus to make.

As I have said before, he ordered an aircraft that was trashed publically by airlines and lessors. That's embarassing.

Also Leahy sweet talked him into selecting a large number A350s to order, and there is speculation that Leahy (and other Airbus execs possibliy) put Udvar-Hazy upto trashing the A350. That would make relations somewhat difficult.

Quoting Kappel (Reply 22):
When would teh a370-1000 go into service? also 2012 or later. If it is 2012, then it shouyld not be that big of a problem, as the a346E was to enter service in 2011. And the a370-1000 will no doubt be a much more capable aircraft (less attractive probably, but that's a different issue   )

The largest model was rumored to have an EIS of 2014. The middle model (300 pax) 2012. The smallest model somewhere in between (though I am skeptical about its viability).



ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
User currently offlinePanAm_DC10 From Australia, joined Aug 2000, 4211 posts, RR: 89
Reply 23, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 9292 times:
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Quoting Mptpa (Reply 24):
Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 11):
Yes and no. They never signed a firm order and the statement from Paris last year "... up to 60 A350..." was ambiguous and suggested some combination of orders and options.

They said "upto 60" even though Airbus put in as "60" in absolute terms, and June is here again!!

Mptpa Please do not attribute that quote to me sir as I did not nor have I questioned the number of A350s QR commited to in this thread. Please check your quote text function  Smile

Regards, PanAm_DC10



Ask the impossible to achieve the best possible
User currently onlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31249 posts, RR: 85
Reply 24, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 9243 times:
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It seems (at least to me) to be reasonable that with the A350 allowing growth on the lower end of the widebody market, QR would choose the A346HGW for growth on the higher end as it offered some levels of commonality.

Now that the A350 seems to be cancelled and the A370 will appears not to offer a plane on the lower end of the widebody market, QR may feel they have no real choice but to take the 787 to fill that need (should they feel A330s would put them at a disadvantage to 787-operating competitors). If that is indeed the case, then it also seems reasonable (again, at least to me) that they would decide on the 773ER for the same reasons.


25 Post contains images Zeus419 : Folks, earlier on in this thread in a post by Starrion, he made a point:- "Not the best choices. If the Board at QR had any power, heads would be roll
26 Kappel : I read that comment indeed, and even though I am usually a bit sensitive concerning muslim comments, I did chuckle when reading your joke. I thought
27 Mptpa : Well, this is what Airbus claims, and you know what their reputation has been in terms timeline. Basically, all manufacturers miss the dates one time
28 EbbUK : this is quite outrageous and deliberately inflammatory.
29 NYC777 : And quite true.
30 EbbUK : another one. the last time i reacted to other comments such as these, I got a 200 day suspension (reduced on appeal). I am biting my lip. but don't p
31 RedFlyer : I wonder if Boeing's decision on that 2nd line, which they stated was due to be made early this month, will be contingent on Qatar going with the 787
32 Post contains images BoeingFever777 : Wow... Didn't see this coming. Thought no matter what QR was going Airbus. It sounds from the article that Mr. Akbar Al Baker is dead serious about Ai
33 Post contains images SoBe : Lighten up, Francis
34 Jacobin777 : those slots went to QF and was one of many factors of QF's decision to go with the 787's
35 Post contains images NYC777 : Well you have to face the painful truth at one point.      [Edited 2006-06-06 03:42:56]
36 Airbus3801 : It would make no sense to the Airbus dominated business line to convert to the 787 and wait a long time for the A/C (that is if no 2nd line is opened
37 F22KA : Aye EbbUK, are you "shua" you aren't an eastern european soul wandering on British land? your way of thinking , which abounds here, is what keeps us b
38 EbbUK : There is a simple logical answer, the 787 cannot be all the plane to all the airlines in the world. QR and other successful airlines have discovered
39 Stitch : But if QR wants a widebody on the lower-end of the size scale, no matter how long they wait, no A370 meeting those specs will ever appear if what we
40 Ken777 : I believe that QR is waiting to see the answers to several important questions. The first will be the status of the 350 program. Is it going to contin
41 DAYflyer : The chickens have now come home to roost at an airline that was silly enough to "order" an airliner that wasn't finalized and was designed to meet a s
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