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Why No WN Expansion In CLE?  
User currently offlineChrisjake From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 857 posts, RR: 1
Posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 4439 times:

i've heard in the past that Southwest is not happy with the landing fees at CLE. is this the sole reason they havent expanded there in quite some time?

it seems to me that markets like LAS and numerous Florida cities could support nonstop service on WN. CO has i think 4 nonstops CLE-LAS while WN only has 1, and you can pretty much call LAS a WN hub, even though they dont like to call it that. why not beef up that route with at least 1 more nonstop. IIRC, CLE-MCO was served nonstop at one time by WN. what happened to that flight?


chris


Well nothing's dead down here, just a little tired
18 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineJetBlueAtJFK From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 1687 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 4415 times:

Well they serve LAS PHX MDW STL BNA BWI all from CLE wich isn't bad but for a bigger city liek CLE I would expect more. I am sure they will add a day time LAS-CLE soon enough to get some good cash from the route some more but they probably are going to hold out until CLE caves in and gives them a break. This might be a while...

B6jfk airplane 



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User currently offlineN702ML From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 4415 times:

Quoting Chrisjake (Thread starter):
CLE-MCO was served nonstop at one time by WN. what happened to that flight?

I don't know that that flight was ever done on a regular basis. I am from CLE and started my airline career with Southwest in CLE...so I kind of keep track of Southwest service there.

I know that for a while Southwest operated nonstops to MCO but they were actually charter flights using our aircraft.

I do not even recall ever having Saturday only service to MCO.


User currently offlineChrisjake From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 857 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 4398 times:

Quoting N702ML (Reply 2):
I do not even recall ever having Saturday only service to MCO.

thats what it was....Sat only.

my OAG in Feb 2003 shows flight 2471 leaving CLE at 0810 arriving MCO 1040, flown with a 733. was this a weekly charter??

chris



Well nothing's dead down here, just a little tired
User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 4373 times:

The reason, as posted in the Cleveland Plain Dealer a few years back, as well as the Cleveland Free Times, is indeed the landing fees. They're pretty outrageous in CLE, and it almost drove CO out of CLE-it would have if former Mayor Mike White had run and won another term about 4 years ago.

WN from everything I've read in the past, just breaks even in CLE, and it simply isn't worth expanding the service they have here.

Fees, I believe, will be going down in the next few years, and it's a good be if they do, it'll spur some growth from both WN and CO.

One reason, besides availibility, you don't see a CO 762 on LGW, with the added cargo capacity, is the landing fees. They're just ridiculous. I'm not sure what they are right now, but they're very high.


User currently offlineN702ML From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 4338 times:

Quoting Chrisjake (Reply 3):
my OAG in Feb 2003 shows flight 2471 leaving CLE at 0810 arriving MCO 1040, flown with a 733. was this a weekly charter??

Okay so we DID do Sat Only flights for a while. My mistake. Sat Only service comes and goes on so many routes its hard to keep track of.

No...the CLE-MCO charters I am referring to...were much earlier than that. Like...1996-1997.

We also had CLE-LAS charters at the time. I believe those flights operated as a redeye LAS-CLE-ROC on Friday night and then returned ROC-CLE-LAS on Saturday. We checked bags in at the Southwest counter, but the charter operator actually assigned seats at one of the gate podiums.

I also recall that the people who got assigned to the "Lounge seats" got free drinks on the flight because the charter company felt they would be uncomfortable on long flights.


User currently offlineGoCOgo From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 701 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 4282 times:

The fact that WN only has 4 gates can't help, either, and I doubt they want to divide their operation from the end of B the common use gates on A.

Quoting Chrisjake (Thread starter):
CO has i think 4 nonstops CLE-LAS

Indeed, using the 757-300 on some, the highest capacity domestic equipment CO is using for scheduled service these days. There will be twice daily 753s on the LAS-CLE segment upcoming. With CO filling those, I'm surprised that WN can't offer another LAS flight or 2.



"Why you fly is your business, how you fly is ours"
User currently offlineHPAEAA From United States of America, joined May 2006, 1024 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 4256 times:

From working at Cle, it was the landing fees that was driving away mainline traffic... that and the cost for real estate was huge, its just a very expensive airport all around, hopefully they can lower those fees and attract some new service... I know HP almost pulled out in 2003 because of the costs.


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User currently offlineATLAaron From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 1020 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 4244 times:
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I am from Cleveland and for a city that certainly is not booming I think they better reconsider their fees. I did not know their fees were that out of control though, but it makes sense because I recall as soon as mayor Campbell was elected she had to fight very hard to get CO to stay.

User currently offlineHPAEAA From United States of America, joined May 2006, 1024 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 4240 times:

Quoting ATLAaron (Reply 8):
I recall as soon as mayor Campbell was elected she had to fight very hard to get CO to stay.

That was a big part of what kept HP, when CO negotiated a reduction in landing fees, everyone else got spillover reductions...



Why do I fly???
User currently offlineIowaman From United States of America, joined May 2004, 4312 posts, RR: 6
Reply 10, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 4133 times:
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Quoting Chrisjake (Thread starter):
CLE-LAS while WN only has 1, and you can pretty much call LAS a WN hub, even though they dont like to call it that. why not beef up that route with at least 1 more nonstop.

Well, CLE-LAS just recently went daily n/s on WN, so I wouldn't expect to see a second daily for a while.

Quoting GoCOgo (Reply 6):
The fact that WN only has 4 gates can't help, either, and I doubt they want to divide their operation from the end of B the common use gates on A.

4 gates and about 20 daily flights (a couple less I believe)? WN in CLE is no where near full utilization. WN usually can do 10 flights per gate and in some cases such as OAK 12-13 flights per gate. WN has plenty of gate space to expand in CLE.



Next fights: WN DSM-LAS-PHX, US PHX-SJD. Return: US SJD-PHX, WN PHX-MDW-DSM
User currently offlineJoeman From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 690 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 4036 times:

Quoting HPAEAA (Reply 7):
From working at Cle, it was the landing fees that was driving away mainline traffic... that and the cost for real estate was huge, its just a very expensive airport

Does anyone know why? Real estate in the area is moderate and the construction projects to date seem moderate as well in comparison to the huge expansions that have taken place elsewhere.


User currently offlineSteeler83 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 9112 posts, RR: 18
Reply 12, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 3981 times:

How does CLE compare to PIT? Doesn't PIT have high landing fees or not as high as up in CLE?

Cleveland is losing people like Pittsburgh is, but Cleveland has about 100,000 more residents up there still. Pittsburgh is not really booming either, but in a few years the city should look a bit different from what it looks like today.

Allegheny County's population is expected to grow to over 1.3 million residents by 2020 according to the Post-Gazette and Tribune Review.

Southwest even stated that they are very happy with their service at PIT and hope to add more frequencies and destinations soon, according to both newspapers...



Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
User currently offlineCentPIT From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 990 posts, RR: 3
Reply 13, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 3885 times:

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 12):
Southwest even stated that they are very happy with their service at PIT and hope to add more frequencies and destinations soon, according to both newspapers...

I have no doubt WN will add some PIT flights soon, but it probably won't be anything major.


As for this topic, CLE I imagine is very similar to PIT with air traffic. The only thing that I see stopping WN in CLE is Continental Airlines. In the future however, I would imagine PIT will have more daily flights from WN than CLE does today. WN obviously doesn't have very much interest in CLE. Hasn't WN been serving CLE for close to ten years now? Just my opinion!



Pittsburgh International: US Airways---160 daily departures! (52 destinations)
User currently offlineN702ML From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 3883 times:

Quoting CentPIT (Reply 13):
Hasn't WN been serving CLE for close to ten years now? Just my opinion!

Service began in February 1992. February 13, I believe. Initially there were 6 daily flights to MDW and 4 to STL.

[Edited 2006-06-07 00:27:40]

User currently offlineLuvfa From United States of America, joined May 2005, 439 posts, RR: 5
Reply 15, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 3848 times:

Its the landing fees in CLE that is helping the fast growth at CAK

User currently offlineSteeler83 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 9112 posts, RR: 18
Reply 16, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 3829 times:

Quoting Luvfa (Reply 15):
Its the landing fees in CLE that is helping the fast growth at CAK

And the oppressive former US hub at PIT as well... Sorry, had to state that  Wink



Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
User currently offlineCentPIT From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 990 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 3797 times:

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 16):
And the oppressive former US hub at PIT as well... Sorry, had to state that

I think PIT is better off now than CLE! CO is keeping just enough flights out of CLE so that no other airlines really think of much expansion, especially Low Cost carriers like WN.



Pittsburgh International: US Airways---160 daily departures! (52 destinations)
User currently offlineSteeler83 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 9112 posts, RR: 18
Reply 18, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 3778 times:

Quoting CentPIT (Reply 17):
I think PIT is better off now than CLE!

I think so, too pal. The US hub essentially kept all the LCCs at bay. FL probably would have had a stronger presence there if not for the US hub. FL started service to several markets out of PIT when the US hub was at its zenith. Destinations offered were MDW, JFK, PHL, ATL, MCO, and FLL. There was one more, but I forget which one it was. The only service that remains now of FL is ATL, MCO, and Saturday only FLL... That is quite sad...

But, that was due to the US hub. Now that it is gone, WN is in town, B6 will be here by the end of the month, O&D is considerably rising... I still wish that FL could have built up their presence a little at PIT. I guess they had a window of opportunity to do so when US closed its hub. Other airlines are starting to pounce on PIT to fill in the holes...



Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
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