What is interesting from this article is that the Fozzie concept could be a preview of the successor to the Boeing 737. Thanks to improvements in propfan designs since the 1980's, improved aerodynamics and 787-derived structural design, we could see such a plane with the same cruise speed and seating capacity as the 737-300 but with 25+ percent lower fuel burn. This could be the plane airlines like Southwest, Ryanair, and even EasyJet could buy after 2015 to replace their oldest short-range jets.
DrExotica From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 174 posts, RR: 0 Reply 1, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 27023 times:
Very interesting article. Thanks.
Using an unducted fan, the cruise speeds are supposed to be ~500 mph. The additional hour on a transcontinental flight should be palatable for the Southwest flyer (keeping in mind that most of their flights are much shorter).
RoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 7210 posts, RR: 50 Reply 2, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 27004 times:
It is good that they are still being creative when designing new planes. You never know when an unconventional design will be more efficient. The reason why planes look the way they do now has a lot to do with convention. We have experience with the current designs, know they work, and have come close to perfecting them. But still there are other designs that could provide for similar or better efficiency if they are optimized correctly.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
RayChuang From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 7489 posts, RR: 6 Reply 3, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 26989 times:
Quoting DrExotica (Reply 1): The additional hour on a transcontinental flight should be palatable for the Southwest flyer (keeping in mind that most of their flights are much shorter).
Actually, the Fozzie concept is EXACTLY type of plane Southwest Airlines, Ryanair and EasyJet are looking for--not the highest top speed but with high fuel efficiency for high-frequency short-hop flying. It would certainly be perfect for short-range flying Ryanair or EasyJet does in Europe or intra-California and intra-Texas flying that Southwest does.
RoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 7210 posts, RR: 50 Reply 4, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 26901 times:
Quoting RayChuang (Reply 3): Actually, the Fozzie concept is EXACTLY type of plane Southwest Airlines, Ryanair and EasyJet are looking for--not the highest top speed but with high fuel efficiency for high-frequency short-hop flying.
It would be interesting if it came to market and to see how the public takes to an unducted fan. It is similar to a turboprop in that it is a more efficient way to get power from the engine turned into kinetic energy, but only works at slower speeds. But since it doesn't look like a turboprop, then the public might be ok with it.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
N328KF From United States of America, joined May 2004, 6197 posts, RR: 4 Reply 5, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 26855 times:
RayChuang From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 7489 posts, RR: 6 Reply 8, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 26316 times:
An open letter to Airbus Industrie/EADS:
Now you you've seen some of the concepts Boeing has studied for future, far more fuel-efficient airliners, how about admitting that the A350/A370 should be an all-new clean sheet design and come up with something really radical that could get a lot of business?
Keesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 9, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 26252 times:
Quoting RayChuang (Reply 8): An open letter to Airbus Industrie/EADS:
Now you you've seen some of the concepts Boeing has studied for future, far more fuel-efficient airliners, how about admitting that the A350/A370 should be an all-new clean sheet design and come up with something really radical that could get a lot of business?
"Payload Driven Aircraft"... passengers have to pedal?
Quoting RayChuang (Reply 8): An open letter to Airbus Industrie/EADS:
Now you you've seen some of the concepts Boeing has studied for future, far more fuel-efficient airliners, how about admitting that the A350/A370 should be an all-new clean sheet design and come up with something really radical that could get a lot of business?
As Keesje says, all manufacturers have concept designs on paper. Whether any of them ever see the light of day is another matter.
Tjc2 From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2006, 141 posts, RR: 0 Reply 11, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 25123 times:
Quoting David L (Reply 10): "Payload Driven Aircraft"... passengers have to pedal?
Yup, ever seen Chicken Run?
It would be really good seeing something going completely against the grain of the conventional aircraft. It's a pity this kind of airframe is so proven!
The only time I made a mistake was when I thought I was wrong...
AirlineAddict From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 399 posts, RR: 1 Reply 12, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 3 days ago) and read 24561 times:
Why do the Green Team concepts seem like derivatives of the DC-9/MD-80/MD-90, especially Fozzie? It looks like the MD-80 with the Ultra-high bypass engines.
ComeAndGo From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 899 posts, RR: 0 Reply 13, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 23985 times:
BoomBoom From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 14, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 23585 times:
Quoting Keesje (Reply 9): Yes! Something like this might work:
I think that met the same fate as the A350; versions I, II, III, and IV. Except of course, Boeing didn't sign firm contacts for 100 of them before pulling the plug on thier customers.
MCIGuy From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 1919 posts, RR: 0 Reply 15, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 23562 times:
Quoting Parapente (Reply 6): Quoting Parapente (Reply 6):
If Airbus is going to "beat" Boeing with their "new" A370 then perhaps they need to think "out of the box" in this manner
Out of the box thinking happens on both sides.
It allows you to identify directions, focus research, find new solutions, mislead the competition.
Some of the findings are incorporated in more conventional designs.
Is it just me, or does "Pro-Green" look like a giant A-10?
CWFan From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 83 posts, RR: 0 Reply 16, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 23489 times:
I don't understand why "Fozzie" isn't a serious consideration for the Y1/737 replacement. If you could shave what -- 20-30% off your fuel bill, won't a ton of the LCCs buy hundreds? Say you mate the open-rotor and Pi tail with full composite construction -- maybe you could get above 20% improvement in operating economics. At, say $80/barrell oil, that's like buying petrol for $65/barrel. How's that not an unbelieveably attractive consideration?
What's the hang-up with Fozzie? Man, they should turn these suckers out. If 2000nm flights go to $400 in the near future, I'd gladly fly for an extra 45 min or 1 hour to pay less.
BHMBAGLOCK From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 2694 posts, RR: 6 Reply 17, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 23489 times:
Quoting Parapente (Reply 6): If Airbus is going to "beat" Boeing with their "new" A370 then perhaps they need to think "out of the box" in this manner
The article clearly stated that Boeing is keeping an eye on innovations from Airbus as well;
Quote:
The Boeing documents include assessments of very similar research projects that its rival Airbus has sketchily mentioned at scientific conferences.
Quoting David L (Reply 10): "Payload Driven Aircraft"... passengers have to pedal?
No, each passenger gets a yoke mounted to the seat back in front of him/her. That way, when the pilots die from bad fish you won't even have to leave your seat to save everybody's lives.
Seriously, these are interesting to see. The one thing that grabs me is the fact that not one of these concepts has an under-wing engine mount. Don't know if this is an indication that they're going to try to keep low to the ground or are just looking at alternatives.
Rheinbote From Germany, joined May 2006, 1873 posts, RR: 52 Reply 18, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 23430 times:
These configurations have been re-visited over and over for the past 30 years, predominantly by the academia. While they are nice study objects for sharpening the skills of students, their practical merits are somewhat limited.
Kermit: CG/loadability almost impractical, long-coupled canards limiting in field performance. Noise isn't that much of an issue to give an arm and a leg for.
Fozzie: empennage layout is a structural nightmare, both statically and dynamically. CG/loadability marginal at best.
Honeydew: minimum drag speed of delta wings is a pitfall. Remember the attempted Concorde return-to-base?
Beaker: folding wings? come on... How about laminar flow instead?
Pro-Green: obviously 'smudged' from an A330 (ab)using a CAD tool. I'd call it 'the mother of interference drag'. How about rotor-burst? Crash-worthiness?
Payload-driven Aircraft: in terms of configuration design, the X-48B makes much more sense. Why would you want to use vertical tails with a flying wing like that?
Simple Fyling Bus: obviously 'smudged' from an A318 (ab)using a CAD tool. Is that a V-tail?
Scouseflyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2006, 3052 posts, RR: 11 Reply 19, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 23375 times:
"But since it doesn't look like a turboprop, then the public might be ok with it."
I don't know one of my colleagues cancelled a flight with VLM when she found out that the plane had props rather than jets - I asked her why and she reckoned that "cos they're old they're not safe"........................................
Azstagecoach From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 149 posts, RR: 0 Reply 20, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 21640 times:
MCIGuy From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 1919 posts, RR: 0 Reply 21, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 21521 times:
I see definite shades of Sonic Cruiser in "Kermit".
RayChuang From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 7489 posts, RR: 6 Reply 22, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 21292 times:
Quoting Rheinbote (Reply 18): Fozzie: empennage layout is a structural nightmare, both statically and dynamically. CG/loadability marginal at best.
That would be true with yesterday's technology, but thanks to 787-style composite structural materials and fly-by-wire systems, such issues can be overcome on the Fozzie design airplane. A Fozzie design 737 successor would be snapped up by Southwest Airlines, Ryanair and EasyJet in huge numbers.
Agree that in the end of the day "the tube with wings" mostly comes out as most practicle as SC went Yellow Stone. Airlines want low CASM, purchasing conditions and low risk. Not innovation / prestige (well, most of them..)
Rheinbote From Germany, joined May 2006, 1873 posts, RR: 52 Reply 24, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 21166 times:
Quoting RayChuang (Reply 22): thanks to 787-style composite structural materials and fly-by-wire systems, such issues can be overcome on the Fozzie design airplane.
Oh, did I miss something lately? I wasn't aware that basic laws of geometry, mechanics and gravity have been altered by the 787.
Neither composites nor FBW will do anything to solve the problems inherent to that concept of integrating propfan powerplants into the empennage.
Aloha717200 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4278 posts, RR: 19 Reply 25, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 21153 times:
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