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Concorde Sonic Boom  
User currently offlineFlyPrivate From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 105 posts, RR: 0
Posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 8419 times:

If a concorde is flying at 65,000 feet, above the speed of sound, and it flies over a jet at 35,000, will the people in the lower jet feel or hear the boom?

59 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePolymerPlane From United States of America, joined May 2006, 991 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 8391 times:

Yup, I would think so. I remember watching about SR-71, they said the only clue the enemy has of the SR-71 presence is by the sonic boom, and by then it's already hunderds of miles away.

But I do not know whether people inside the aircraft can actually feel it, because of the aircraft insulation.

One of the reason concorde was doomed is because of sonic boom across the land. That is why it can only fly above water and desert.

Cheers,
PP



One day there will be 100% polymer plane
User currently offlineJetBlueAtJFK From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 1687 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 8168 times:

Well I don't know if they would feel it that much becuause of all of the insolation on the plane but I think they have to head a little something.

B6jfk airplane 



When You Know jetBlue, You Know Better
User currently offlineBa757gla From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2006, 760 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 8105 times:

surely them concorde has flown over land supersonic !1 i see miltary jets high up going pretty fast !1

User currently offlineRichardPrice From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 8085 times:

Quoting FlyPrivate (Thread starter):
If a concorde is flying at 65,000 feet, above the speed of sound, and it flies over a jet at 35,000, will the people in the lower jet feel or hear the boom?

Potentially, depending on other factors such as noise proofing, other noise sources etc.

Quoting PolymerPlane (Reply 1):
One of the reason concorde was doomed is because of sonic boom across the land. That is why it can only fly above water and desert.



Quoting Ba757gla (Reply 3):
surely them concorde has flown over land supersonic !1 i see miltary jets high up going pretty fast !1

Yes, Concorde has flown supersonic over land, it did it fairly frequently over Canada on both the round the world trips and the final delivery flights to the museums.

This is a good example of Concordes double boom:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=annkM6z1-FE


User currently offlineBa757gla From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2006, 760 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 8073 times:

that video is great . didnt know you could see concorde from ground level!1

User currently offlineDavid L From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 9541 posts, RR: 42
Reply 6, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 8066 times:

Quoting Ba757gla (Reply 3):
i see miltary jets high up going pretty fast !

But is "pretty fast" faster than the speed of sound? Do you hear sonic booms?

Quoting PolymerPlane (Reply 1):
That is why it can only fly above water and desert.

Could, not can.  Sad

Concorde did some supersonic test runs over the UK in the 1970s and I think Australia authorised supersonic flights over its interior but I don't know if any were ever made.

Cue GDB and Bellerophon...


User currently offlineBa757gla From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2006, 760 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 8061 times:

the miltary jets look to be going a lot faster than commercial flights. so if there were going supersonic the boom would happen over the atlantic/north sea then the jets would fly across the land at supersonic speed i dont know but thats what i think?

User currently offlineDavid L From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 9541 posts, RR: 42
Reply 8, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 8018 times:

Quoting Ba757gla (Reply 7):
so if there were going supersonic the boom would happen over the atlantic/north sea then the jets would fly across the land at supersonic speed

Not quite sure what you're saying there. If they were supersonic over land then there would be a sonic boom over land.


User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13252 posts, RR: 77
Reply 9, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 7987 times:

Plans to extend the run to SIN, to MEL, was stopped before they ever happened, by enviromental protests, despite any route being over barely inhabited outback and at most, a 3 x weekly service.

BA Concorde did indeed supercruise over Canada, on average from the mid 80's to 2000, several times a year, not included any segment of a round the world charter.
OAG did it for the very last time, for it's delivery to Seattle.


User currently offlineVc10 From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2001, 1412 posts, RR: 16
Reply 10, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 7963 times:

Generally the old girl only flew supersonic over land which was of the sandy desert variety or the cold snowy variety. The only inhabited piece of land which was constantly flown over supersonic from almost the beginning to the end of Concorde's career, was Sable Island in the North Atlantic which tended to get the full Mach 2 bang everyday. A group of us went there one day to experience this bang and would you believe it, BA cancelled that days service.

Australia gave permission for supersonic proving flights over it's deserts ,but would not give permission for schedule supersonic flights.

As to whether you would hear a supersonic bang inside an aircraft which Concorde was overflying, I presume you would and in the early days of Concorde operation the crews were told to keep a look out for other aircraft that they might fly over at supersonic speeds and broadcast a warning over the radio. This was more to do with the fear though that the supersonic
shock wave could interfere with the subsonic aircraft's pitot and static system.
It never seemed to be a problem and the warning procedure was dropped after a year or so.

I could be wrong,but most of the round the world charters routed through New York and then a further subsonic leg to their initial destination in the mid west or Pacific coast. The Toronto flights were routed supersonic across the Canadian northern Arctic deserts.

Just as an aside even the Concorde's flight Tashkent to Moscow had to be done at subsonic speeds

Anyway be happy little vc10


User currently offlineRichardPrice From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 7934 times:

Quoting Vc10 (Reply 10):
I could be wrong,but most of the round the world charters routed through New York and then a further subsonic leg to their initial destination in the mid west or Pacific coast. The Toronto flights were routed supersonic across the Canadian northern Arctic desert

According to the round the world charter video I have, the JFK to Vancouver segment was done supersonic, travelling north from JFK and then looping over the northern territories rather than travelling direct to Vancouver.


User currently offlineDavid L From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 9541 posts, RR: 42
Reply 12, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 7934 times:

Quoting GDB (Reply 9):
Plans to extend the run to SIN, to MEL, was stopped before they ever happened, by enviromental protests, despite any route being over barely inhabited outback and at most, a 3 x weekly service.



Quoting Vc10 (Reply 10):
Australia gave permission for supersonic proving flights over it's deserts ,but would not give permission for schedule supersonic flights.

Well, I was in the ballpark  Smile. Cheers, guys.


User currently offlineVC10 From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2001, 1412 posts, RR: 16
Reply 13, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 7889 times:

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 11):

According to the round the world charter video I have, the JFK to Vancouver segment was done supersonic, travelling north from JFK and then looping over the northern territories rather than travelling direct to Vancouver.

Richard,

As I said I could have been wrong on this, especially if the charter you are referring to is an Air France one, but I do not remember BA doing one as even the trip to Seattle some 20 years ago was routed through New York and subsonic to Seattle, and time was important on that trip. The Canadians were quite sensitive about allowing supersonic flight over their territory, but on a one off you could be correct.

littlevc10


User currently offlineRichardPrice From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 7725 times:

Quoting VC10 (Reply 13):
As I said I could have been wrong on this, especially if the charter you are referring to is an Air France one, but I do not remember BA doing one as even the trip to Seattle some 20 years ago was routed through New York and subsonic to Seattle, and time was important on that trip. The Canadians were quite sensitive about allowing supersonic flight over their territory, but on a one off you could be correct.

It was the BA 1999 round the world charter, and the route wasnt specially agreed with Canadian authourities for that trip, it was a route taken many times before and was only possible due to the skill of Concorde crews navigation (after all, they went supersonic up the centre of the Red Sea on these trips as well):

JFK to Vancouver
Vancouver to Kona
Kona to Nadi
Nadi to Sydney
Sydney to Guam
Guam to Bangkok
Bangkok to Madras
Madras to Nairobi
Nairobi to Aqaba
Aqaba to Venice
Venice to Lisbon
Lisbon to JFK

The JFK to Vancouver segment was done flying north over Montreal, then going supersonic while looping out over Hudson Bay, Churchill and into Vancouver.


User currently offlineByronsterk From Netherlands, joined Jul 2005, 155 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 7631 times:

Could the pepole inside concorde hear it?


Helicopters can't fly, there just so ugly the earth repells them...
User currently offlineRichardPrice From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 7537 times:

Quoting Byronsterk (Reply 15):
Could the pepole inside concorde hear it?

No, it was on the outside of the shockwave they were producing (the boom people hear is the leading edge of that shockwave).


User currently offlinePolymerPlane From United States of America, joined May 2006, 991 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 7509 times:

Quoting Byronsterk (Reply 15):
Quoting Byronsterk (Reply 15):
Could the pepole inside concorde hear it?

No, it was on the outside of the shockwave they were producing (the boom people hear is the leading edge of that shockwave).

Just an addition, since you travel twice the speed of sound, the sound wave from the sonic boom could never reach you Big grin

Cheers,
PP



One day there will be 100% polymer plane
User currently offlineBravoGolf From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 539 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 7325 times:

Quoting Ba757gla (Reply 3):
surely them Concorde has flown over land supersonic !

A number of years ago Concorde was at the EAA Oshkosh Show. They flew passengers, at $500 I believe, north to Hudson Bay. and return When they entered Canada, they went supersonic. They dropped to subsonic when they returned to the US. If I remember correctly, they flew two trips a day for several days and were sold out almost immediately.


User currently offlineDavid L From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 9541 posts, RR: 42
Reply 19, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 7293 times:

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 16):
Quoting Byronsterk (Reply 15):
Could the pepole inside concorde hear it?

No, it was on the outside of the shockwave they were producing (the boom people hear is the leading edge of that shockwave).

And remember that the shockwave that causes the sonic boom doesn't just exist at the moment the aircraft breaks the sound barrier, it's present during the whole supersonic portion. To someone moving at the same speed as the aircraft it would sound like the "boom" except it would go on for hours, not just a fraction of a second


User currently offlineMax Q From United States of America, joined May 2001, 4778 posts, RR: 19
Reply 20, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 7256 times:

I can tell you personally that, yes you can feel AND hear the bang(s) as Concorde used to fly overhead.

Returning to NY a few years ago from London she overflew us just off the south west coast of Ireland.

In the Cockpit we were able to see and hear her very well, as well as feeling a noticeable vibration.

She is missed very much.



The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
User currently offlineMorvious From Netherlands, joined Feb 2005, 707 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 6899 times:

I remember that BAW DvD of the concorde on the flight to and from NYC.

After takeoff from London, they were routed to the Bristol channel where they could start accelerate to sonic speeds.
I also thought that the NYC routes were always sonic over the ocean, and not over land??



have a good day, Stefan van Hierden
User currently offlineVC10 From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2001, 1412 posts, RR: 16
Reply 22, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 6818 times:

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 14):
It was the BA 1999

Richard , if you mean it was a BA charter in 1999 then I have an excuse as I retired in 1998, and so would have no personal knowledge as to what happened post 1998. If the flight was prior to 1998 then I take your word for it, but I never heard about it

Quoting BravoGolf (Reply 18):
EAA Oshkosh Show

Have just checked with with a friend of mine who crewed the Oskosh trips in 1985 and 1988 and yes they did do trips from Oskosh but none were supersonic. Does this mean they never did them at a later date and the answer is I do not know ,but I have to say that if they did then the passengers got a very good deal as $500 sounds extremely cheap for a supersonic flight

Nice talking to you all Littlevc10


User currently offlineRichardPrice From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 6703 times:

Quoting Morvious (Reply 21):
I remember that BAW DvD of the concorde on the flight to and from NYC.

After takeoff from London, they were routed to the Bristol channel where they could start accelerate to sonic speeds.
I also thought that the NYC routes were always sonic over the ocean, and not over land??

Yes they were, which was why they were routed over the Bristol Channel - they could start the supersonic acceleration and climb while still in UK airspace, route south of Ireland and just keep going. Concorde also didnt keep a set altitude, it was allowed to climb as it burnt off fuel, which is why you see greater altitudes on longer segments.

Concorde then decelerated to arrive at JFK.

If Concorde was routed further south out of the UK, it would have had added an extra 30 minutes or so to the trip while it cleared Lands End in Cornwall.


User currently offlineCanuckpaxguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 5880 times:

I have a question -
I thought Concorde only made a boom once it accelerated past the sound barrier, so there would only be one "boom" once it hit its supersonic speeds.

Is that case, or would one hear the boom any time Concorde flew past them at supersonic speeds?

G


25 David L : Hmm, good question. Oh, wait a minute...
26 SFOerik : Yes, you can feel the sonic boom inside Concorde. The pilot announces when to expect the subtle yet detectable 'double speed bump' as I would call it.
27 David L : Those "bumps" are the reheats being lit, two at a time. That happens when you're subsonic and about to accellerate towards Mach 1. In the cabin, the
28 David L : Look at it this way: if the sonic boom only happened as the aircraft passed Mach 1, you'd be able to take off from JFK, fly out to sea a bit, go supe
29 Dl757md : I know the range of Concorde was severely limited at subsonic speeds. Did it have trans-continental range such as JFK-YVR for a wholly subsonic fligh
30 Post contains images CptSpeaking : The shockwave is always there...the boom is just as it travels by you. Think of a cone extending in all directions from the plane (I know this isn't
31 S12PPL : Why wouldn't you be able to see the Concorde from the ground???
32 Post contains images Lehpron : Yes, as one would get closer to the source, the 'boom' will get louder and stringer. But unlike things on the ground, the airplane absorbs little imp
33 Post contains images Sovietjet : Why were there environmental protests? How does a sonic boom hurt the environment?
34 AlexPorter : When Concorde was flying supersonic, could people at the front of the cabin hear the engines? I would think that the noise would stay behind, but sinc
35 Max Q : I am certainly no Concorde expert, but I do not think they flew higher than 60,000 feet.
36 Newark777 : You would still be able to hear them through the cabin. Harry
37 RichardPrice : The record held by a Concorde was 68,000ft, and in operational flight they regularly flew over 60,000ft on longer segments. Noise pollutes quite a lo
38 UAL777UK : You cannot hear the boom inside the cabin but you can feel a little bump as you go through the sound barrier. For me, the only way i knew i was flying
39 Post contains images FlySSC : Air France had planned a very special Charter flight for the Millenium : Celebrate 3 times the new Millenium : 1) Celebrate the new year 2000 in CDG.
40 EGTESkyGod : I'm told that the only noise heard in the cabin was the air conditioning system working away, and the air whistling past the windows. I so badly want
41 Post contains images FlySSC : True. But you could also hear the sound of the engines, very low, but louder than all other rear mounted engine aircraft like the MD80, F100, or even
42 Post contains images EGTESkyGod : Now you're just trying to make me jealous............ and it's working!!!!
43 Vc10 : yes it.s range subsonic was less than that at supersonic, but as the airlines gained more experience with the aircraft many things were done with it
44 Post contains images David L : Yes... but I thought that was implied. No! The two bumps you feel have nothing to do with the sound barrier.
45 Bellerophon : RichardPrice ...and in operational flight they regularly flew over 60,000ft on longer segments.... Not correct. Maximum permitted altitude was 60,000
46 RichardPrice : On the Round the World charters, they regularly flew above 60,000ft as the fuel burnt off on the longer segments - the pilots just let the aircraft c
47 Post contains links Starlionblue : According to http://www.concordesst.com/performance.html: - Maximum operating altitude 60,000Ft According to the certification sheet http://www.conco
48 RichardPrice : If I remember, and if I get time, later tonight after I finish work, I shall post a video of a Concorde pilot being interviewed on the 1999 charter s
49 Diesel1 : I recall in the early 70s Concorde carrying out test flights where the intention was to go supersonic to find out what the impact was on those on the
50 UAL777UK : Well whatever, it must have been the afterburners cutting in, I am afraid i am not clued up that much on the technicalities. As to the noise of the e
51 Ba757gla : iif i remember corectly concorde flew supersonic between LHR-EDI but this was over the north sea . i dont understand this as this distane is only 400
52 EGTESkyGod : I think I'm right in saying that it was similar to the 'Round the Bay' flights they did, ie: they went supersonic in a loop over the North Sea so tho
53 GDB : The Oshkosh we did, I think in was 1997, not sure of the speed of the 'round the bay's as part of that charter'. 60,000 was the max altitude, usually
54 Sovietjet : So how do military jets regularly fly supersonic and there isn't such protests over it?
55 Post contains images Lehpron : Granted. I worry about simplified explainations as people end up using pieces of what we say and any other misconception they failed to include in ou
56 Bellerophon : RichardPrice ...On the Round the World charters, they regularly flew above 60,000ft... Still not correct. They did not. 60,000 ft was the maximum cert
57 FlySSC : The record altitude reached by a Concorde is 68.000ft. It was in June 1973, during a test flight, by André Turcat on board Concorde 001 F-WTSS . As
58 PolymerPlane : I would think so, since the noise you hear in the cabin is mostly from the engine sound travelling through the airframe. Although it does not matter,
59 S12PPL : Ummm...Contrails?
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