Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
NW Considering A-380, 747-8, 744, Or 777 Freighter  
User currently offlinePITrules From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 3203 posts, RR: 5
Posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 11238 times:

From the June issue of Air Cargo World, on the subject of Northwest replacing their older 742 freighters:

"Northwest is considering such options as the A-380 freighter that first reaches the market in 2008, the 777 freighter that is slated for launch that year, 747-400 conversions to freighters from current passenger service as well as -400 production freighters, plus the 747-8 that reaches its first airline customer late in 2009. Industry sources say the 747-8 is the most likely candidate to fit into Northwest's Asia focused cargo network."


FLYi
33 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7063 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 11201 times:

Quoting PITrules (Thread starter):
Industry sources say the 747-8 is the most likely candidate to fit into Northwest's Asia focused cargo network."

I would agree on that, too.



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offline7E72004 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 3587 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 11180 times:

I would think one of the Boeing jets would be preferred. I am not trying to start an "A vs. B" thing but the 747 or 777 would be the more logical ones since the A380 may have trouble at some airports where NW has cargo service.


The next generation of aircraft is just around the corner!
User currently offlineNWDC10 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 11095 times:

I believe in the future, NW will order the 747-8 and when they retire their 747-400's they will just turn them into Cargo Freightors. Why would they buy a brand new a/c for cargo operations when they can buy brand new a/c for passengers and use their "retired" 747-400's for cargo operations.Robert NWDC10

User currently offlineStarrion From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1126 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 11033 times:

I think NWDC10 hit the nail on the head. That makes the most sense by far.


Knowledge Replaces Fear
User currently offlineTokyoNarita From Palau, joined Aug 2003, 570 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 10988 times:

Realistically, NW will go looking for used B747-400s to convert them to freighters to replace their classics. They may even convert their own as more A330s and B787s may become available. A lot of successful asian carriers will soon be looking to get rid of their B744s pretty soon for more efficient twins. I would say there will be plenty of B744s available for cargo conversions for a while at a reasonable price.

TokyoNarita.

[Edited 2006-06-12 22:51:07]

User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 84
Reply 6, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 10906 times:

Quoting NWDC10 (Reply 3):
Why would they buy a brand new a/c for cargo operations when they can buy brand new a/c for passengers and use their "retired" 747-400's for cargo operations.

There are a variety of reasons.

One is the nose door.
Another is that the 747-400BCF doesn't have the same uplift as a -400F.
Another is that 747-400s aren't just lying around.

N


User currently offlineFWAERJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 3749 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 10867 times:

Quoting NWDC10 (Reply 3):
I believe in the future, NW will order the 747-8 and when they retire their 747-400's they will just turn them into Cargo Freightors. Why would they buy a brand new a/c for cargo operations when they can buy brand new a/c for passengers and use their "retired" 747-400's for cargo operations.

I, too, see NW converting its pax 747-400s to freighters. OTOH, I see NW as more of a 777-300ER customer than a 747-8I customer. Remember, NW wants to right-size its Asian capacity, not increase it.



"Did he really need the triple bypass? Or was it the miles?"
User currently offlineBlueSky1976 From Poland, joined Jul 2004, 1884 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 10703 times:

First, NW would have to straighten out their Ch. 11 problem, then order new planes. But when they are ready to order, I'd say they'd go for 747-8i. As much as I'd rather see them ordering 777-300ER, with 748i they can use their existing maintenance and crews, so it would be more of an airframe-only investment instead of airframe + infrastructure + maintenance + training one.


STOP TERRORRUSSIA!!!
User currently offlineSeamefly From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 317 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 10586 times:

Would these purchases require another 195 millions pay cuts from the FA group?

User currently offlineAdipasqu From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 238 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 10586 times:

Quoting PITrules (Thread starter):
Industry sources say the 747-8 is the most likely candidate to fit into Northwest's Asia focused cargo network.

Am I the only one here that thinks NW's DC-9 fleet would make excellent conversions to DC-9C's in 40 or so years when NW finally starts to phase 'em out? Who needs new 748's when you could have 20 old DC9's do the same thing? (just in case you couldn't tell, my tongue is firmly planted in my cheek)



707 722 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739 741 742 752 753 762 763 764 D9S D10 319 320 321 M80 M82 M83 M87 M88 M90 SF3 ERJ CRJ
User currently offlineAirRyan From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 2532 posts, RR: 5
Reply 11, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 10512 times:

They are only seriously considered in the 747 advanced and will only use the others as a bargaining tool. I used to work down the hall from Steenlands office, right on the corner of domestic pricing and atlantic revenue management where so many evidently including some VP's would stop and congreate for numerous annoying (and sometimes informative) discussions. Suffice to say if they had the money they already would have ordered the 747 ADV and who knows, they may still be the launch customer for the passenger version, at least perhaps the US if nonetheless. NW definately sees the 748 as the perfect replacement for their 742's.

User currently offlineMCOflyer From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 8675 posts, RR: 15
Reply 12, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 10486 times:

Maybe Boeing will give them a deal if they launch the 787F. To me they would A) go for the 748
B) buy some 777F
C) launch the 787F.

I read in Airliner World that NW has converted the last of the 742's to F standadrs by IAI.

MCOflyer



Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
User currently offlineTokyoNarita From Palau, joined Aug 2003, 570 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 10466 times:

Quote:
Another is that the 747-400BCF doesn't have the same uplift as a -400F.

This is a good point, and I think it depends on whether if NW wants to keep the ANC cargo ops or the benefits of bypassing ANC. NCA and JAL both have picked up the 400Fs and now they are launching non-stops from NRT to Europe with almost full load.

TokyoNarita.

[Edited 2006-06-13 00:28:31]

User currently offlineMCOflyer From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 8675 posts, RR: 15
Reply 14, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 10446 times:

Whats the range of a 744F with a full cargo load? I would launch the 787F (if nobody already has). It would fit in perfectly w/ NW's 787 order.

MCOflyer



Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
User currently offlineBrendows From Norway, joined Apr 2006, 1020 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 10385 times:

Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 14):
Whats the range of a 744F with a full cargo load?

It should be about 4300nm on a standard day with CF6 engines with 0,85mach cruise.


User currently offlineBurnsie28 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 7545 posts, RR: 8
Reply 16, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 10059 times:

I won't put too much into this report, as a couple years ago Northwest PUBLICLY stated that they have no interest in the A380, its too big, and airports are too limited.

Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 8):
First, NW would have to straighten out their Ch. 11 problem, then order new planes

Wrong, just because your in Chapter 11 doesn't mean
1. You don't have any money
2. You cant order planes and other stuff

Being in Chapter 11 you can still order planes, esepecially if its vital to the airlines future and such.



"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
User currently offlineMCOflyer From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 8675 posts, RR: 15
Reply 17, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 9066 times:

I didnt know that. Is it possible ordering new 748F for cargo and 748 passenger planes? I presume if Boeing gave them a good deal they would order the 748 Passenger to replace current ones.


Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
User currently offlineFlyDreamliner From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2759 posts, RR: 15
Reply 18, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 7855 times:

Quoting NWDC10 (Reply 3):
I believe in the future, NW will order the 747-8 and when they retire their 747-400's they will just turn them into Cargo Freightors. Why would they buy a brand new a/c for cargo operations when they can buy brand new a/c for passengers and use their "retired" 747-400's for cargo operations.Robert NWDC10

NW has a few routes that support a full 744 on the pacific, but they are trying to expand to more American cities from their NRT hub, which means 787s pick up the slack, and there is less use for 747s. NW increasingly doesn't need the big jets as much. They'll always have a 747 fleet for their heavy pacific routes (NRT-MSP, NRT-DTW etc.), but don't expect it to grow greatly. Plus, 748 means NEW jets - and those cost money.

Quoting Starrion (Reply 4):
I think NWDC10 hit the nail on the head. That makes the most sense by far.

Anyone who knows NW know - what makes the most sense has almost nothing to do with what NW does most of the time.

Quoting Seamefly (Reply 9):
Would these purchases require another 195 millions pay cuts from the FA group?

Hahaha, they FA union already voted down the current paycut contract, they are the lowest paid FA's around, or atleast on any legacy. Don't count on it. There isn't much left in the way of pay to cut.



"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
User currently offlineWjcandee From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5162 posts, RR: 22
Reply 19, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 7518 times:

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 6):
Quoting NWDC10 (Reply 3):
Why would they buy a brand new a/c for cargo operations when they can buy brand new a/c for passengers and use their "retired" 747-400's for cargo operations.

There are a variety of reasons.

One is the nose door.
Another is that the 747-400BCF doesn't have the same uplift as a -400F.
Another is that 747-400s aren't just lying around.

N

Gigneil is of course correct. There's a good article from about 18 months ago that runs down which suppliers are doing what, that's pretty true today except that the big 757-conversion push hasn't yet happened; the demand is there but the supply isn't because of the renaissance that the 757 is enjoying in passenger service. http://www.atwonline.com/magazine/article.html?articleID=1082


Let me suggest two more issues:

(1) Availability of conversion slots, which Boeing has some control over by licensing additional contractors for conversion kits (like those kits Korean will ultimately use to convert some of its own 747-400s and maybe those of other carriers), but the ability to get "quick" conversions is limited, with many lines sold out for a few years.

(2) New vs used: Cargo is flown in two (essentially two, anyway) modes: high-utilization and low-utilization. On certain routes, carrying certain cargo, you're getting major-passenger-airline-like daily utilization of your assets. Under those circumstances, the higher capital cost of an all-new-aircraft acquistion pays off in the additional efficiencies or capabilities of the design, as well as typically-higher dispatch reliability and time between failures. On other routes, you're taking the thing, flying it to the hub with the night's business, sorting, reloading, and going back to the origin, and maybe you're doing that twice a day if you're lucky. The aircraft get to sit a lot. You can spend some time working on them while they're sitting without impacting schedules. Under those circumstances, the lower efficiency of the airframe is offset by lower capital cost of the airframe. With today's very-high fuel prices, the analysis changes a little, but it's still the basic tradeoff. So for most of the major "scheduled" cargo carriers, a mixed fleet is optimal. Newer aircraft that they're going to fly the crap out of, and older aircraft that will get to do some sitting around. UPS's fleet isn't a bad example of this. In the US, recent rumours are that DHL's two favorite aircraft are the 762 (which burns less fuel than a 727 and has a 2-person flight deck and one less engine, and carries basically the same load as a DC8 with two less engines and a 2-person flight deck on a lot less fuel) and the DC9. Interestingly, the aircraft that has the best dispatch reliability of all DHL US aircraft is the DC9. Flying 2 r/ts a day to the west coast, the 767s see very decent utilization, while the DC9s see significantly less. And each is well-suited to its mission.

Hope this helps.


User currently offlineNLINK From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 313 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 6207 times:

One interesting rumor that has been around is Airbus and PW offering NW a very good deal to launch the 330F, which would still work using ANC as a hub but I believe this aircraft is to small in my opinion.

User currently offlineTjwgrr From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 2443 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 6087 times:

Can't imagine a NW A380F. The A380F isn't suited for some of the large & heavy lift cargo NW currently carries.

Why do you think UPS is ordering both the A380F & the 744F?



Direct KNOBS, maintain 2700' until established on the localizer, cleared ILS runway 26 left approach.
User currently offlineMCOflyer From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 8675 posts, RR: 15
Reply 22, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 5576 times:

The A330F would work using the A333 fuselage. The A332 is way too small. Of course you need to add more fuel tanks in order to make it efficent.

MCOflyer



Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
User currently offlineChiGB1973 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 1615 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 5468 times:

I just wonder how you can consider all three as an and/or situation. Really, if you need an A-380, you need, what 2 or 3 777s. Since NW as the Asia cargo traffic, then the A-380 would be appropriate.

I do have to wonder what effect FedEx and UPS getting A-380s will have on NWs operation. Is NW hauling their cargo now that they will not be hauling in the future for these companies? I know NW has regular flights to ILN, but DHL has no intentions of getting the A-380 nor anything bigger than they have.

I tend to agree that passenger aircraft should take priority. How bad does NW need a nose loading aircraft. Maybe easier loading/unloading, but aside from huge cargo, the containers and nets side loaded would probably work fine. Not to discount the need for large air freight, but I am leaning towards converting what they have to freighters.

Have a good day guys!

M


User currently offlineTjwgrr From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 2443 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 5233 times:

Quoting ChiGB1973 (Reply 23):
I do have to wonder what effect FedEx and UPS getting A-380s

FedEx and UPS wont be doing this with the A380F:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Andrew Beckett
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Sven De Bevere




Direct KNOBS, maintain 2700' until established on the localizer, cleared ILS runway 26 left approach.
25 MCOflyer : I should memtion that China Eastern is replacing its A300's with A333. If a A300 can be converted to a freighter, an A333 can. When the A300's get old
26 Columba : At least Fedex has no need for the nose door capability. The A380F is just fine for them.
27 TOLtommy : Well not agreeing to a paycut will only guarantee that there won't be any new planes, and that the old ones might not be flying anymore as well. The
28 FlyDreamliner : My source is the Minneapolis Star-Tribune. There is an article almost every other week on this. Unless they are wrong, they say the NW F/A's would be
29 Post contains images UAMAYBACH1239 : The nose door will not be a factor when it comes to fleet replacement. 747-400 these planes are converted to fly just as if the were originally a car
30 DAYflyer : After today's announcement about the further A-380 delays, I bet it is off the table.
31 Gigneil : The only A330F design is based on the A330-200. The 333 just doesn't have the uplift. A 333F would be fine for the likes of FedEx, but not for anythi
32 Post contains links Wjcandee : I remember Boeing pitching that you get essentially the same cargo *volume* in the BCF as you do in the 744 freighter, but they didn't expressly pitc
33 Centrair : If talking only Cargo for NW, then I think a combination of 400BCF and 747-8F. Convert 744s they own and buy 748Fs to complement. The A380 would be ou
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
NW Future: 747-ADV's Or 777's? posted Sun Nov 13 2005 01:19:37 by AirRyan
Which Airport Has The Largest 744 Or 777 Traffic? posted Sat Jul 12 2003 09:56:02 by BOEING747400
Major Airlines Missing 744 Or 777 Fleets posted Fri Apr 11 2003 10:06:39 by BOEING747400
If Only I Owned A United 744 Or 777... posted Mon Dec 9 2002 08:40:59 by Redwarf
Air France: 744 Or 777 posted Mon Jul 23 2001 22:19:03 by AT
747-400 Or 777? posted Thu Feb 17 2000 21:22:28 by American_4275
LAX Domestic 747 Or 777 posted Fri Aug 4 2006 20:07:41 by IFEMaster
747 Or 777 posted Wed Apr 13 2005 20:01:18 by Adam727
How Many Old Color Schemes On JL 744 Or 747? posted Sat Oct 30 2004 01:25:31 by Ktachiya
PIA 747 Or 777 Into JFK Today (thursday 8th)? posted Fri Apr 9 2004 03:44:39 by MIAMIx707