FCKC From France, joined Nov 2004, 2142 posts, RR: 3 Posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks ago) and read 8823 times:
According to ATW , the 20 unidentified 777-300ERs on Boeing website have been bought by Qatar Aw (so no A340-600HGWs) , and the order for 1 747-8 is a VIP plane destined for a Middle Eastern customer , who can be The State of Qatar.
Slz396 From Belgium, joined Oct 2001, 2462 posts, RR: 21 Reply 3, posted (3 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 8453 times:
If confirmed, that means negotiations between Emirates, Airbus and Qatar fell through and Emirates will thus convert their 20 A346 on order to a reasonable number of A380s (8 to 10 would seem fair?) or face having them delivered by the end date of the firmly signed contract (possibly as white tails).
PanAm_DC10 From Australia, joined Aug 2000, 3081 posts, RR: 89 Reply 4, posted (3 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 8103 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW COMMUNITY MANAGER
Quoting Tifoso (Reply 2): I believe the breakdown is 14 773ERs and 6 LRs
According to Boeings site you are correct sir. The only question which remains as to whether this is for QR is that their original LoI announced at Le Bourget included the 772F. This order contains no 772Fs but in all probability it is for QR givent their A346/B777 order was "imminent" and this looks like one for Farnborough.
Quoting Slz396 (Reply 3): Emirates will thus convert their 20 A346 on order to a reasonable number of A380s (8 to 10 would seem fair?) or face having them delivered by the end date of the firmly signed contract (possibly as white tails).
Slz396 you make a valid point and this may well be the case if your assessment is indeed correct. However, I don't believe that they would go so far as to have white tails delivered. EK have indicated they are prepared to give Airbus the time needed to define the A350/A370 but at the same time have spoken positively on the 787. Perhaps the deposits for the A346HGW could be used to negotiate for the new Airbus model as it becomes more defined. They have the money to buy and I've no doubt that Airbus would accommodate them if need be. There could be more than just one option available to them.
Atmx2000 From United States, joined Oct 2004, 4576 posts, RR: 43 Reply 5, posted (3 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 8091 times:
Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 1): See, I posted a few times that I am fed up with QR and they finally firm up their order after all. I guess they didn't like my disgust with them.
Oh, you really have a high opinion of yourself don't you. It's obvious QR was concerned with my bashing of their baffling fleet planning decisions, but yours? Ha! No way.
Quoting Tifoso (Reply 2): I believe the breakdown is 14 773ERs and 6 LRs.
Quoting FCKC (Thread starter): According to ATW , the 20 unidentified 777-300ERs on Boeing website have been bought by Qatar Aw (so no A340-600HGWs) , and the order for 1 747-8 is a VIP plane destined for a Middle Eastern customer , who can be The State of Qatar
It makes sense for QR, without fuel hedges, to go for the 777, but I thought they were planning on ordering 777Fs as well.
ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
Wedgetail737 From United States, joined Aug 2003, 4010 posts, RR: 4 Reply 6, posted (3 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 8006 times:
So perhaps we'll see a press release soon? Or will they wait until the big airshow this summer?
Slz396 From Belgium, joined Oct 2001, 2462 posts, RR: 21 Reply 7, posted (3 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 8006 times:
Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 4): EK have indicated they are prepared to give Airbus the time needed to define the A350/A370 but at the same time have spoken positively on the 787. Perhaps the deposits for the A346HGW could be used to negotiate for the new Airbus model as it becomes more defined. They have the money to buy and I've no doubt that Airbus would accommodate them if need be. There could be more than just one option available to them.
Oh absolutely. With Airbus aiming more at the 777 than the 787 with their redesigned A350, I could very well see Emirates order both the 787-8/-9 AND A350-900/-1000, the first one to replace the A332 with, the second one to replace their 772s and 773s with...
Atmx2000 From United States, joined Oct 2004, 4576 posts, RR: 43 Reply 8, posted (3 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 7935 times:
Quoting Slz396 (Reply 7): Oh absolutely. With Airbus aiming more at the 777 than the 787 with their redesigned A350, I could very well see Emirates order both the 787-8/-9 AND A350-900/-1000, the first one to replace the A332 with, the second one to replace their 772s and 773s with...
It wouldn't be to replace the 777s, as they would be very young. It would be for capacity expansion.
ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
ANother From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 9, posted (3 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 7912 times:
Quoting FCKC (Thread starter): nd the order for 1 747-8 is a VIP plane destined for a Middle Eastern customer , who can be The State of Qatar.
Next time you fill up your gas/petrol tank - take a moment to remember where you money is going! With Qatar in the lead now, how much longer until we see a A380 executive jet from another Emir or Sheik?
Slz396 From Belgium, joined Oct 2001, 2462 posts, RR: 21 Reply 10, posted (3 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 7897 times:
Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 8): It wouldn't be to replace the 777s, as they would be very young. It would be for capacity expansion.
You'd think so, but given the fact Emirates has declared not even built A340-600s 'machina non grata' because of their fuel/payload/range disadvantage against the 773s, it is not unthinkable to see these 777s being replaced even before halfway down their usefull live by yet another type of plane which outdoes them on all fronts be a similar margin as they have done to the A340NG before.
Boeing767-300 From Australia, joined Sep 2001, 633 posts, RR: 0 Reply 11, posted (3 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 7798 times:
Quoting Slz396 (Reply 7): Oh absolutely. With Airbus aiming more at the 777 than the 787 with their redesigned A350, I could very well see Emirates order both the 787-8/-9 AND A350-900/-1000, the first one to replace the A332 with, the second one to replace their 772s and 773s with...
Slz396 Dreams are free there is no doubt about that but dreams aside I love the way after 18 months of Airbus floundering around redesigning the A350 and the market telling them they got it so wrong are now going to 'announce a 773ER killer'
Whatever you are smoking it must be good stuff. The A370 is going to out perform or at least equal the 773Er on 40K less power. An isn't the A346 OEW significantly heavier than the larger 77W.
All this announcement will confirm is that the A346/5 is well and truely DEAD and is probably why the A350 is being redone as a larger type A340 replacement. I doubt Airbus can tackle both 787/777 with one plane but good luck to Airbus. You seem to forget that the 777Xs came significantly years after the original 777 release. How about 1990 launch 1995 772 1996 772ER 1998 773 and the 773ER 2004 and LR 2006. Remembering that 773ER ws delayed several times it took about 10 years from launch 1990 to get 77W to the market.
This 773 Killer you keep referring to have you a rough idea of when it could possibly hit the market and at what cost??
Seems like 2014/5/6 won't be too far off and neither will Y3...........
Maybe there will be some announcement at Farnborough. I for one are suprised by this order (Qatar 20 777) and believe it is indicative of Airlines needing the right product and tiired of the uncertainty of Airbuses widebody product lineup for the next ten years. A345/6 can't cut and nobody knows wher A is heading with A350.
FCKC From France, joined Nov 2004, 2142 posts, RR: 3 Reply 12, posted (3 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 7671 times:
ANother
I guess one rich Middle Eastern state will buy an A380VIP , as Airbus said recently they are very closed to get their first A380VIP order.
But , i am still thinking the very first to buy an A380VIP will be the Sultan of Brunei , has he said himself at the FIDAE show at the begining of this year , he will replace its 744 by 1 new A380VIP.Will see.......
Anyway as the state of Qatar has the habit to paint their planes in the QR livery , we will see 1 747-8 in full QR cs !!!!!!!!! Great !!!!!!!!!
EI321 From Iraq, joined Jul 2009, 0 posts, RR: 0 Reply 13, posted (3 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 7489 times:
Quoting Boeing767-300 (Reply 11): Whatever you are smoking it must be good stuff. The A370 is going to out perform or at least equal the 773Er on 40K less power. An isn't the A346 OEW significantly heavier than the larger 77W.
Where are you getting this info? From what ive seen, the A370-1000 will have either 2 new design engines or the engines from the 748.
Quoting Boeing767-300 (Reply 11): Maybe there will be some announcement at Farnborough. I for one are suprised by this order (Qatar 20 777) and believe it is indicative of Airlines needing the right product and tiired of the uncertainty of Airbuses widebody product lineup for the next ten years. A345/6 can't cut and nobody knows wher A is heading with A350.
What exactly is the right product? QR stalled the 777 order to see if Airbus would develop the A340E or not. Obvioulsly there will be a large version of the A370 instead, but QR need planes sooner than 2013+ so they settled with the 777s.
Quoting Boeing767-300 (Reply 11): All this announcement will confirm is that the A346/5 is well and truely DEAD
Just like the 787 launch confirmed the 767 is dead. Just like the 748 launch confirmed the 744 is dead. Just like the A330 launch confirmed the passenger A310/A306 were dead. Whats your point?
MCOflyer From United States, joined Jun 2006, 8009 posts, RR: 16 Reply 14, posted (3 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 7363 times:
Pretty good news for Boeing and Qatar. I hope they like the 773ER as EK does. The 772LR should be great for them b/c of its range. I heard PIA was having some issues with it, but cant remember what those were.
Jacobin777 From United States, joined Sep 2004, 13323 posts, RR: 69 Reply 15, posted (3 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 7172 times:
Quoting EI321 (Reply 13):
Just like the 787 launch confirmed the 767 is dead. Just like the 748 launch confirmed the 744 is dead. Just like the A330 launch confirmed the passenger A310/A306 were dead. Whats your point?
You forget to add however, the 747's and 767's together sold thousands of frames..how many frames did the A345/A346 sell for the invesment dollars added?
Ikramerica From United States, joined May 2005, 18437 posts, RR: 60 Reply 16, posted (3 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 6915 times:
Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 5): Oh, you really have a high opinion of yourself don't you. It's obvious QR was concerned with my bashing of their baffling fleet planning decisions, but yours? Ha! No way.
Let's share the credit and leave it at that.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
11Bravo From United States, joined Feb 2005, 1526 posts, RR: 15 Reply 17, posted (3 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 6872 times:
Quoting EI321 (Reply 13): Just like the 787 launch confirmed the 767 is dead. Just like the 748 launch confirmed the 744 is dead. Just like the A330 launch confirmed the passenger A310/A306 were dead. Whats your point?
I wouldn't say it's "just like" any of your examples. You are citing cases where OEMs have replaced their own aircraft with newer models.
If this order is indeed for QR, it's more like what we saw at Air Canada where a major, and heretofore loyal, Airbus customer has decided to buy Boeing aircraft for its fleet renewal and expansion plans. That is a sea change for QR and it's a serious loss for Airbus and the A340 program.
Zvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10187 posts, RR: 71 Reply 19, posted (3 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 6415 times:
Quoting Slz396 (Reply 3): If confirmed, that means negotiations between Emirates, Airbus and Qatar fell through and Emirates will thus convert their 20 A346 on order to a reasonable number of A380s (8 to 10 would seem fair?) or face having them delivered by the end date of the firmly signed contract (possibly as white tails).
There are many other ways this could play out. Another obvious one is that EK could forfeit their A340 deposits. However, if EK want their money back, wouldn't Airbus refund it (probably without interest) to keep their biggest WhaleJet customer happy?
Another possibility is that EK could probably defer the A340 orders indefinitely (decades even) until Airbus produce something that EK want. Anyway, without knowing how the cancellation clause in the contract reads, we can only speculate on what is possible, not what is probable.
Legoguy From Ireland, joined Jun 2006, 3160 posts, RR: 51 Reply 20, posted (3 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 6337 times:
Im new here so please don't flame me.
How many a340-600s did Qatar order? I they only ordered one or two,what was the point? Surely they would needed a good few A340's for commonality reasons
Having said that, the new Qatar colours look great
Can you say 'Beer Can' without sounding like a Jamaican saying 'Bacon'?
Stitch From United States, joined Jul 2005, 15992 posts, RR: 64 Reply 21, posted (3 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 6337 times:
I was under the impression EK was putting their A346HGW deposits towards more A380s, but since they just converted their two A380F orders to passenger variants, perhaps they feel 45 (?) is enough for now and want to see what the "A370" brings to the table, since EK's current expansion rate would require new planes throughout the 2010s, supporting a 787 order (2010-2015) and an A370 order (2015-2020).
AirMailer From United States, joined May 2006, 405 posts, RR: 0 Reply 23, posted (3 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 6183 times:
Quoting FCKC (Thread starter): According to ATW , the 20 unidentified 777-300ERs on Boeing website have been bought by Qatar Aw (so no A340-600HGWs) , and the order for 1 747-8 is a VIP plane destined for a Middle Eastern customer , who can be The State of Qatar.
If that's the case, then it seems like someone was right last week when they said that this was just 'Boeing's Buy 20 777s Get a Free 747-8' deal.
Slz396 From Belgium, joined Oct 2001, 2462 posts, RR: 21 Reply 24, posted (3 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 6145 times:
Quoting Zvezda (Reply 19): There are many other ways this could play out. Another obvious one is that EK could forfeit their A340 deposits. However, if EK want their money back, wouldn't Airbus refund it (probably without interest) to keep their biggest WhaleJet customer happy?
Another possibility is that EK could probably defer the A340 orders indefinitely (decades even) until Airbus produce something that EK want. Anyway, without knowing how the cancellation clause in the contract reads, we can only speculate on what is possible, not what is probable.
You talk about deposits, but I think that is just part of the issue here.
Remember this is a firm contract, not some kind of LoI, MoU or option deal, so you can't be much more committed to taking the planes than that, can you?
If you order a new car at your local dealer and somewhere between the date of signing the purchase agreement and you actually getting your car, you find a fabulous second hand car which gives you the same comfort for less money, I don't believe for a minute you can just hop in at your local car dealer and tell them: okay, let's just void this contract, or shelve it till I need a new car.... He has your signature on a legally binding document and there will be no cheap or easy way out of it for you: you are going to either take that car or pay for a considerable sum in damages to him.
If things would be so easy at Airbus, I'd suppose Boeing would have used it to void/defer the ex-SQ A340s for which they didn't find takers in time, don't you think? How many were delivered as white tails to them? Anybody remember? I recall reading here (I know not a good and reliable source) Boeing deferred them till the end date mentioned in the contract and then Airbus giving Boeing notice they would soon exercise the put clause in the purchase contract inviting them to settle the bill.
OldAeroGuy From United States, joined Dec 2004, 2818 posts, RR: 61 Reply 25, posted (3 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 6050 times:
Quoting Slz396 (Reply 24): If things would be so easy at Airbus, I'd suppose Boeing would have used it to void/defer the ex-SQ A340s for which they didn't find takers in time, don't you think?
How many A380's did Boeing have on order?
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
26 11Bravo: If you are a rent-a-car fleet manager and you have 45 other cars on order from that dealership, I think you could expect to receive some deference.
27 Slz396: Sorry? You've quoted me correctly... just where does it say A380???? With all the A380s equally firm on order and thus enforceable just like the A340
28 Legoguy: Maybe abit off the topic but I read somewhere that boeing offered to by airbus aircraft off an airline they were trying to sell planes to. What would
29 AirMailer: Trade it. I would guess to a Lease Corp.
30 11Bravo: Airbus isn't going to get all hard-assed about this A346 order with EK. That would just be stupid. They would be creating an adversarial relationship
31 Brendows: You're probably thinking of the A340-300s SQ were operating. Boeing sold SQ a load of T7s, and in turn Boeing bought the A340s from SQ. The A340s was
32 EI321: Of all the aircraft you mention, these have been poor selling varients and successful varients. The 747 as a programme has sold very well, except for
33 Jacobin777: granted the A345 and A346 come from the same line, and some of the development costs are amortised in the development cost of say the A330, A340, etc
34 AA777: Supposedly not having enough range/ bad fuel consumption because of take offs from high locations in Pakistan..... I believe Boeing sort of dismissed
35 OldAeroGuy: Just my oblique way of saying that EK has a lot more leverage on Airbus than Boeing does. I doubt the Airbus will take EK to task over cancelled A346
36 Jacobin777: I think it was a case of bad journalism, as well as the fact their are some PK pilots who fly Airbus planes and would love to see PK's Boeings fail f
37 Glideslope: Doubtful, unless the operators are looking for 2020 delivery slots given Airbus' current state.
38 Kaitak: Airbus has today announced a further delay in A380 production, which will see only 9 acft (compared to a planned 26) being delivered in 2007. Now, whe
39 ANother: Try http://www.atwonline.com/news/other.html?issueDate=6%2F13%2F2006 top two lines
40 Hinckley: In fact, in the US you can just void a new car contract and walk away - at anytime until you take actual ownership of the vehicle. I don't mean to be
41 BoeingFever777: Awesome... WAY TO GO BOEING & QR! More work for the guys up in BFI! They will have their own new updated Airforce1.
42 Zvezda: I think that's just been the A.net speculation of what might occur. That's not analogous to what I wrote. If one were to go back to the car dealer an
43 AA777223: That's impossible! There is no way an aircraft the size of a 773ER, even with EXTENSIVE use of composite is going to fly the same distance as the 777
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