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US And HP Fleets  
User currently offlineTcfc424 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 517 posts, RR: 2
Posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 3705 times:

I apologize if this has been discussed ad nauseum here since the merger of HP and AWA, however I did try searching but could not find anything regarding this, and after passing AUS today for the first time in a while, it sparked my interest.

Have HP and US integrated their fleets regarding city pairs, routing, etc or have they primarily maintained the structures pre-merger?

Perhaps to clarify, would it be unusual to see a US aircraft parked at AUS, whereas pre-merger the only service was from HP? I only noticed HP aircraft today, but I was driving, so I had to watch the road somewhat...of course being able to see the aircraft at the terminal while on 183 is quite tempting...

Any info would be appreciated, and flames will be directed to the complaint department at 1-800-***-**** promptly. (haha)

Mike S. in AUS

24 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineHPRamper From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4037 posts, RR: 8
Reply 1, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 3702 times:

For the most part, the routes have stayed separate, but there are some selected routes that have gone from HP to US and vice versa.

User currently offlineAtrude777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5692 posts, RR: 52
Reply 2, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 3702 times:

In STL US Airways and America West have completely merged, everything is all US Airwasy except the ATC sign on the arrival and departures I think.

AWA and US Airways aircrafts over lap their routes at STL.

Alex



Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
User currently offlineM180up From El Salvador, joined May 2006, 403 posts, RR: 5
Reply 3, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 3690 times:

the certificates are still separate, so you wont see a US airplane operating a HP route yet or the other way around, until the certificates are merged it will be possible


Werner from SAL
User currently offlineMCOflyer From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 8664 posts, RR: 15
Reply 4, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 3679 times:

Heres what I know about the A/C sitution.

The 767's will get new interior's and will stay. Heard a rumor AVIOD will be installed.
US will buy any used ETOPS 757 w/ RR engines
The 737's will recieve new paint jobs
A330's will be delivered in 2008

I've seen HP aircraft in ORF, CLT, and PHL. So yes the transition has began. A US pilot told me a 737 is in new c/s. Can anyone confirm? I know once the 333's go in for m/x, they will recieve it.

MCOflyer



Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
User currently offlineMCOflyer From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 8664 posts, RR: 15
Reply 5, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 3679 times:

Same for MCO. I meant to say US is looking for more used 757's with ETOPS. The crews really like them.

MCOflyer



Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
User currently offlineAlexPorter From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 3662 times:

HP is operating PDX-PHL now.

User currently offlineHAL From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 2558 posts, RR: 53
Reply 7, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 3537 times:

There were a few switches in the routes for the sake of efficiency, i.e. LAS-MIA going to US, while HP picked up a daily PHL-SEA and PHL-PDX. But except for some senior management positions, they are completely separate airlines, and will remain so until there is a combined seniority list and contract for the pilots, and the FAA signs off on the combined certificate. That means the FAA has to agree to a new training program for pilots & F/A's, manuals, procedures, and everything else that will make two airlines into one. It is impossible (and illegal) for a US pilot to fly an HP plane or HP pilot to fly a US plane (or route either). You may see one of the HP planes in AUS that is painted in the new US colors, but until the airlines merge under one operating certificate next year, it won't be a US plane or crew.

HAL



One smooth landing is skill. Two in a row is luck. Three in a row and someone is lying.
User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26376 posts, RR: 76
Reply 8, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 3536 times:

Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 2):
In STL US Airways and America West have completely merged, everything is all US Airwasy except the ATC sign on the arrival and departures I think.

The ATC sign for the combined airline is going to be Cactus.

Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 4):
The 767's will get new interior's and will stay. Heard a rumor AVIOD will be installed.

Avoid what?  Silly I think you meant AVOD



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineHPLASOps From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 3497 times:

Quoting HAL (Reply 7):
There were a few switches in the routes for the sake of efficiency, i.e. LAS-MIA going to US, while HP picked up a daily PHL-SEA and PHL-PDX.

Currently, LAS-FLL, PHX-MIA, LAS-MIA and LAS-RDU are being flown on east metal.

I believe March of 07 is the target date for full integration and certificate merging.


User currently offlineA330323X From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 3039 posts, RR: 44
Reply 10, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 3257 times:

Quoting M180up (Reply 3):
the certificates are still separate, so you wont see a US airplane operating a HP route yet or the other way around, until the certificates are merged it will be possible

You will and do indeed see plenty of US airplanes operating routes in the "traditional" HP system and vice versa. They have scheduled a number of such instances, to improve utilization. They have also covered for each other a number of times on an unscheduled basis, when one airline has a spare available, and the other airline has a cancellation or needs an extra section.

What you won't see are US crew operating HP planes, or vice versa.

Quoting HAL (Reply 7):
You may see one of the HP planes in AUS that is painted in the new US colors, but until the airlines merge under one operating certificate next year, it won't be a US plane or crew.

There's nothing at all stopping them from scheduling (or using on an unscheduled basis) US crew *and* US metal on PHX/LAS-AUS.

All that matters is that the crews and the airplanes are on the same certificate. The routes are completely irrelevant. (Aside from a few international routes for which only one carrier has operating authority, but even there they have nearly all their authorities aligned, except a very few instances where prohibited by bilateral.)



I'm the expert on here on two things, neither of which I care about much anymore.
User currently offlineCa2ohHP From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 954 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 3150 times:

Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 4):
The 737's will recieve new paint jobs

That was the original plan, but because of much higher than estimated maintenance costs, retirement will be moved up significantly. US is currently in preliminary talks with Airbus and Boeing on a replacement for the 733's and 734's.


User currently offlineFCYTravis From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 1191 posts, RR: 6
Reply 12, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 3061 times:

Quoting A330323X (Reply 10):
There's nothing at all stopping them from scheduling (or using on an unscheduled basis) US crew *and* US metal on PHX/LAS-AUS.

Wouldn't the lack of SABRE-connected legacy-US terminals at AUS hinder the operation of the flight, because the computer systems are still separate? I know at PHX the US aircraft only use a few specific gates at the end of the low-B concourse that have been outfitted with US East SABRE computers, because they have to have access to US East systems.



USAir A321 service now departing for SFO with fuel stops in CAK, COS and RNO. Enjoy your flight.
User currently offlineHAL From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 2558 posts, RR: 53
Reply 13, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 3060 times:

Quoting A330323X (Reply 10):
The routes are completely irrelevant.

Actually not. According to the transition agreement between the company and the pilots, they can not have one carrier fly the other carrier's routes. AWA had a problem with aircraft availability one day last year on the PHX-LAX route and put a US plane & crew on it. You'd think the world had ended by the ruckus put up by the AWA pilots. The company agreed that they'd erred, and haven't done it again. It's a matter of protecting what you already have, and not letting management step all over you. Some may see it as petty, but given all that management has done to the AWA pilot group over the years, they needed that protection.

HAL



One smooth landing is skill. Two in a row is luck. Three in a row and someone is lying.
User currently offlineM180up From El Salvador, joined May 2006, 403 posts, RR: 5
Reply 14, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 2952 times:

Quoting A330323X (Reply 10):
You will and do indeed see plenty of US airplanes operating routes in the "traditional" HP system and vice versa. They have scheduled a number of such instances, to improve utilization. They have also covered for each other a number of times on an unscheduled basis, when one airline has a spare available, and the other airline has a cancellation or needs an extra section.

What you won't see are US crew operating HP planes, or vice versa.

sorry, this is what i was trying to say, guess my words weren't so clear, they are already operating some od the routes of the other airline, but I was trying to mean a US metal operating a flight scheduled as HP, or HP crew operating a US flight



Werner from SAL
User currently offlineUSAir734 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 57 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 2864 times:

It is happening, here in ALB we've had some HP CRJ's operating flights to Phillie

User currently offlinePgtravel From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 446 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 2810 times:

Quoting USAir734 (Reply 15):
It is happening, here in ALB we've had some HP CRJ's operating flights to Phillie

That's not an HP CRJ. That's a YV CRJ in HP colors. YV was a partner with both HP and the old US, so they can swap aircraft around their system however they want to.


User currently offlineUSAir734 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 57 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 2796 times:

Quoting Pgtravel (Reply 16):
That's not an HP CRJ. That's a YV CRJ in HP colors. YV was a partner with both HP and the old US, so they can swap aircraft around their system however they want to.

well, needless to say, we didn't get them prior to the merger


User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 18, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 2735 times:

Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 4):
A US pilot told me a 737 is in new c/s.

Dude, quit listening to those people!

Quoting Ca2ohHP (Reply 11):
US is currently in preliminary talks with Airbus and Boeing on a replacement for the 733's and 734's.

Get the 73G & 738, US!!! C'mon!!!



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineA330323X From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 3039 posts, RR: 44
Reply 19, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 2714 times:

Quoting HAL (Reply 13):
Actually not. According to the transition agreement between the company and the pilots, they can not have one carrier fly the other carrier's routes.

Then please explain to me how they've gotten away with scheduling and flying such routes as PHX-BOS/CUN/ORD/SEA, LAS-FLL/MIA/RDU/TPA, PHL-PDX/SEA, all with the "wrong" carrier's equipment and crews.

Here is the ALPA transition agreement, as I've posted a dozen times before. Please show to me the language that prohibits one carrier from flying the other carriers routes. (Hint: it's not in there.)

There is language that limits flying the other airline's routes to Hawaii/Europe/Caribbean, but nothing that limits domestic flying. Even the international flying is merely limited, and not prohibited; US will soon be flying PHX-CUN with US metal and US crews.

Quoting HAL (Reply 13):
AWA had a problem with aircraft availability one day last year on the PHX-LAX route and put a US plane & crew on it. You'd think the world had ended by the ruckus put up by the AWA pilots.

Actually, it was the flight attendants who freaked out--and they were wrong.

Quoting HAL (Reply 13):
The company agreed that they'd erred, and haven't done it again.

No. The company did say they wouldn't do it again, but they did not agree that they were in error, since they were not. The company pay-protected the affected HP crews, which was all they needed to do per the HP-AFA contract. Just because the HP AFA MEC filed a grievance does not mean that the grievance was sustained.

And since the AFA reached their transitional agreement, the company has indeed used one airline's aircraft to fly extra sections on the other airline's routes, though I'm not sure if they've covered for cancellations.



I'm the expert on here on two things, neither of which I care about much anymore.
User currently offlineHAL From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 2558 posts, RR: 53
Reply 20, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 2567 times:

OK, I erred in saying "routes". I meant "flights". If AWA is scheduled for flight 539 LAS-CLE but has a mechanical, the airline can't put US metal on the flight and run it. That is what they did in the PHX-LAX example, and that is what got the pilots so upset (yes, the pilots - I was one of them at the time, so don't lecture me on what happened).

HAL



One smooth landing is skill. Two in a row is luck. Three in a row and someone is lying.
User currently offlineA330323X From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 3039 posts, RR: 44
Reply 21, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2539 times:

Quoting HAL (Reply 20):
If AWA is scheduled for flight 539 LAS-CLE but has a mechanical, the airline can't put US metal on the flight and run it.

Yes, they can. Just because the HP employees complained doesn't mean they were right. US/HP pay-protected the affected crews, and that's all that was necessary. (Last year, when a deicing boom fell on a US A330 in PHL, US wet-leased a First Choice 763 to fly PHL-LGW for a few days. What happened here was even less controversial than that, as the HP code was never placed on these flights.)

From the HP ALPA contract, there are two relevant sections. If you can find something in the contract that says otherwise, please point it out.

The first relevant section is on scope:

The Company may only engage in Subcontracted Revenue Flying under the
following circumstances: Subcontracted Revenue Flying may be engaged in
for a period not in excess of ninety (90) days per occurrence during the term
of this Agreement when (i) such Subcontracted Revenue Flying is necessary
to accomplish the needs of the service of the Company, and (ii) the Company
determines that it does not have sufficient or appropriate aircraft, or sufficient
or appropriately trained Pilots, available to perform the Subcontracted
Revenue Flying, and (iii) the Company does not furlough any Pilot as a direct
result of such engagement in Subcontracted Revenue Flying. Provided,
however, said ninety (90) day period may be extended by mutual agreement
of the parties. It is understood and agreed that nothing in this Subsection
1.D.1.b. will prevent the Company from furloughing Pilots for economic
reasons independent of or unrelated to its engagement in Subcontracted
Revenue Flying.


That section isn't even technically relevant to what happened then, as HP did not place its code on the US flights. The US flights were run as US extra sections, and HP merely signed its tickets over to US, as if it were rebooking its pax on any other airline. But even had HP placed its code on the flights and wet-leased the planes from US, it would have been allowed under this section.

The other relevant section is on scheduling:

A lineholder who is rescheduled or rerouted shall receive pay and credit for
the actual pairing flown or the originally scheduled pairing, whichever is
greater.


HP did indeed pay-protect the affected crews without argument.

Quoting HAL (Reply 20):
That is what they did in the PHX-LAX example

There were about 7 flights that US operated that day. PHX-DCA/LAX/PHL/PIT if I recall.

Quoting HAL (Reply 20):
and that is what got the pilots so upset (yes, the pilots - I was one of them at the time, so don't lecture me on what happened).

The pilots merely complained; the flight attendants filed a grievance. (I'd bet that the reason the pilots didn't grieve it is because they knew there was nothing to grieve.)



I'm the expert on here on two things, neither of which I care about much anymore.
User currently offlineOakjam From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 182 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 2419 times:

At OAK the newly painted HP aircraft have the US Airways NC as I flew out of there 1 month ago. There I saw the new US airways colors on a flight to PHX. I wonder if they have the new colors on aircraft to Los Cabos and Las Vegas?

User currently offlineHAL From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 2558 posts, RR: 53
Reply 23, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 2220 times:

A330323X,

The point I was trying to make was that it was the transition agreement, not the ALPA contract that the company was abusing. Here is an excerpt from a recent letter from the HP union to the pilots. It explains the problem better than I have:

SYNERGIES: “WHAT THE TA ALLOWS”



In a recent issue of “About US” the company presented an article on synergies being implemented this summer. The main point made was that the company is shifting East flying onto routes traditionally flown by the West side system. Management continues with the assertion that this adjustment to the schedule provides opportunity to the West side system to re-enter and develop new markets. We have heard your concern about the announced flying and are all concerned with ensuring our contractual rights are protected.



What are the facts? The fact is that the Transition Agreement language protects only “known and announced” flying between points west of the Mississippi to Hawaii and east of the Mississippi to European and Caribbean destinations. The language cannot be interpreted otherwise as the intent of the negotiators was to only protect this high-value flying and allow for the Company to get a “taste” of potential synergies to be attained after the integration is completed.



What your MEC sees as a violation of the TA are the repeated attempts by the company to replace East or West side aircraft and crews on flying currently scheduled on the HP or US code. A dispute under the TA exists on these continued attempts by the company to interchange flights when circumstances arise and we are currently in the process of selecting an arbitrator to hear this issue. The West side operation recently attempted just such a substitution with a proposed Phoenix-Charlotte flight in lieu of the regularly scheduled US flight. The captain on this flight rightly refused the assignment and your Reps will vigorously defend this pilot should the company decide to pursue the issue. Meanwhile, if you are asked to operate any flight which you know to be a substitute flight for a known US scheduled revenue flight you should contact the Duty Officer and ALPA representation. It is ALPA’s view that these flights are extra-contractual and until a satisfactory resolution is reached between all parties we must defend this position aggressively. Your Representative will advise you of your contractual rights. If you are unable to contact your ALPA Rep before the flight is scheduled to depart, fly the assignment provided it meets all FAA, Company and contractual parameters ( i.e. flight is to an approved America West regularly scheduled destination etc.)


HAL



One smooth landing is skill. Two in a row is luck. Three in a row and someone is lying.
User currently offlinePVD757 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3411 posts, RR: 17
Reply 24, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 2092 times:

I clearly heard a US management type say that HP cannot operate into cities that were previously US (east) only stations due to the reservations systems not being compatible yet - not so much so due to the labor agreements.

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