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Emirates Response.......  
User currently offlineCPairDC10 From Germany, joined Feb 2006, 78 posts, RR: 0
Posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 11135 times:

Report from Bloombergs web site.....makes sad reading

Emirates, Largest A380 Customer, `Considering' Options on Delay
June 14 (Bloomberg) -- Emirates, the largest customer for Airbus SAS's A380, said it's ``considering its position'' after the European planemaker delayed delivery of the 555-seat aircraft by another six months.

Emirates, which ordered 45 of the world's largest passenger plane, will receive the first one in October 2007, rather than April, the Arab carrier said today in an e-mailed statement.

That's a year later than originally scheduled when the Dubai, United Arab Emirates-based carrier ordered the planes. A spokeswoman for Emirates wouldn't say if options included seeking compensation from Toulouse, France-based Airbus.

Airbus will push Emirates's ``patience'' if delivery of the aircraft is delayed again, Tim Clark, president of the carrier, said in December.

``We can forgive six months but I don't think we'll forgive much more than that,'' Clark told journalists at the opening of Emirates' new passenger lounge at Paris's Charles de Gaulle airport on Dec. 6.

Clark and Emirates Vice Chairman Maurice Flanagan were in a meeting today when their offices were called. Emirates said yesterday delivery of the planes will be delayed again. Airbus confirmed the delay later in the day.

Any bets on the end of the programm before the plane is in service ???

75 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePlaneHunter From Germany, joined Mar 2006, 6643 posts, RR: 78
Reply 1, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 11095 times:

Quoting CPairDC10 (Thread starter):
Any bets on the end of the programm before the plane is in service ???

No, the A380 program won't die, not even after the latest delay...  Yeah sure


PH



Nothing's worse than flying the same reg twice!
User currently offlineScoliodon From India, joined Oct 2005, 217 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 11064 times:

Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 1):
No, the A380 program won't die, not even after the latest delay...

 checkmark 



JFK-LGA-EWR-DTW-IND-PHX-CLE-SFO-LAS-SEA-ORD-MCO-MIA-DFW-ATL-CDG-FRA-BOM-MAA-DEL-TRZ-DXB-CLT-CVG-DEN-MSP
User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 3, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 11051 times:

Quoting CPairDC10 (Thread starter):
Any bets on the end of the programm before the plane is in service ???

I think it could turn out to be the 'end' of bigger things than just the A380. A lot could depend on what happens to EADS' shares over the next few days.



"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineToulouse From Switzerland, joined Apr 2005, 2754 posts, RR: 58
Reply 4, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 11051 times:

Quoting CPairDC10 (Thread starter):
Any bets on the end of the programm before the plane is in service ???

Please don't tell me you'd be silly enough to bet money on the programme ending before EIS! What have you been smoking to post this? Have a happy day, and keep away from the bookies for your own sake!



Long live Aer Lingus!
User currently offlineAstuteman From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 9837 posts, RR: 96
Reply 5, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 11011 times:
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Quoting NAV20 (Reply 3):
A lot could depend on what happens to EADS' shares over the next few days.

Presumably, the avoidance of your hypothesized $100m per frame loss on 20 lost frames production will see EADS shares skyrocket........
A


User currently offlineJustPlanes From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 885 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 11011 times:

Won't this make it real though on Airbus to convince Emirates to go with the A350/A370? in the event they were still considering this aircraft...

User currently offlineFXramper From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 7127 posts, RR: 87
Reply 7, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 10956 times:

Can EK legally tell Airbus they don't want the A380 cause it's taking so long and order another a/c?

User currently offlineTedTAce From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 10932 times:

I'd love to join the chorus of Airbus bashers, but the reality is that would be a foolish decision. Now obviously AB is going to pay a price for not delivering what they told their customers to expect, but to w/o the company arbitrarily is not sensible. They have way too many acomplishments to let this large bump bring it to an end, to say nothing of what the EU would do to ensure that Airbus is around long after the last 380 is retired. Is this bad, yes, but it's not the end.

User currently offlineCPairDC10 From Germany, joined Feb 2006, 78 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 10845 times:

OK its not the end , but it dosent look good does it when they want to launch the 370 , then deliver the 380 a year late !! when the largest customer happens to be one of the richest and maybe most influetial in the world today ?

Hope this doesnt happen to the 370 programm as id love to see this ordered in large numbers......maybe if AB qet it right.

Just heard on the German news that the new delay has come from a problem with the electrical installation , anybody else heard this ??


User currently offlinePolymerPlane From United States of America, joined May 2006, 991 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 10796 times:

Quoting FXramper (Reply 7):

After more than 1 year delay, I think they can. There should be in the contract, a provision that describe the liability of the manufacturer, and the penalty on not meeting those target. I do not know if it is a valid comparison, but I think when Eclipse500 changed the engine and delay the launch by 1-2 years, it stated that those changes were ground for termination.

Cheers,
PP



One day there will be 100% polymer plane
User currently offlineIwok From Sweden, joined Jan 2005, 1107 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 10776 times:

Quoting CPairDC10 (Reply 9):
OK its not the end , but it dosent look good does it when they want to launch the 370 , then deliver the 380 a year late !! when the largest customer happens to be one of the richest and maybe most influetial in the world today ?

Someone's head needs to roll for this... Probably no chance that it will be old Noel..

I have a real hard time understanding why the wiring is the issue... There must be some other problem lurking. What is it that Airbus does'nt understand about wiring? I mean, they have made a bunch of new planes recently , 345, 346, 320 with similar systems to whats in the 380.

What is so special about the 380 wiring that's going to lead to further delays and over $2B in losses?

-iwok


User currently offlineAeronut From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 137 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 10706 times:

Quoting Iwok (Reply 11):
Someone's head needs to roll for this... Probably no chance that it will be old Noel..

I have a real hard time understanding why the wiring is the issue... There must be some other problem lurking. What is it that Airbus does'nt understand about wiring? I mean, they have made a bunch of new planes recently , 345, 346, 320 with similar systems to whats in the 380.

What is so special about the 380 wiring that's going to lead to further delays and over $2B in losses?

-iwok

I tend to agree, although wiring, and espcially wiring for IFE systems comes much much later in the design of the aircraft. In the 6 years the plane has been developing, these systems have probably changed,and the customer' specs have changed also.

Often, people think that if something is wrong, just fix it and move on. In aviation, a simple electrical backshell could have a lead time of 52 weeks!


User currently offlineManni From South Korea, joined Nov 2001, 4221 posts, RR: 23
Reply 13, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 10690 times:

Quoting FXramper (Reply 7):
Can EK legally tell Airbus they don't want the A380 cause it's taking so long and order another a/c?

I dont know the answer to your question, and I'm not having a shot at it either, no doubt many others will.  Wink

However, consider this,

If EK cancels the order, what will they get instead? Something similar sized is not on offer, if you go slightly smaller you have the 748i (EK being interested in a stretched A380, I doubt they would want to go smaller). The 748i, will not go into commercial service for atleast another 4 years. By cancelling the A380 EK would only make the damage to themselfes bigger, as it will take them even longer before they can take delivery of any other aircraft they will order instead of the cancelled A380's.



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User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 60
Reply 14, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 10690 times:

Quoting Iwok (Reply 11):

Someone's head needs to roll for this... Probably no chance that it will be old Noel..

your telling me...

fair use excerpt:

"Shares of European defense company and Airbus parent EADS fell 18% on Wednesday after the European plane manufacturer said its production program for the A380 superjumbo is being slowed down"

http://www.marketwatch.com/News/Stor...eid=38882%2E1451563889%2D877916650


hopefully the stock will recover.......but I think shareholders in EADS need to have the management of this company re-evaluated..

I certainly think Gustav Humbert will do a good job at Airbus though...



"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlineNudelhirsch From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 1438 posts, RR: 19
Reply 15, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 10613 times:

There won't be massive cancellations. This is all about compensation.

Airlines knew from the beginning how many seats the plane would have, and that is what they planned on. They did not just go shopping for the best deal, like a soccer mom at a grocery store.

They planned a huge share of their future development on the 380 and they will not just cancel that.

For Airbus, of course, there is a rough patch ahead to cough up the compensations they might have to pay.

Yet, the latest delay was due to production difficulties, not the plane. It could well be that a supplier went belly up or bailed out, or delivered crap, whatever. Could well be that Airbus can reclaim the compensations from suppliers.

A program's death, after building 15 frames, doing world wide flying? Ridiculous, childish comment. That only flames up the annoying A<>B nonsense.



Putana da Seatbeltz!
User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 60
Reply 16, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 10576 times:

Quoting Nudelhirsch (Reply 15):
There won't be massive cancellations. This is all about compensation.

I don't see cancellations either, but it is a credibility train wreck..especially when SQ and EK were deciding between the 787 and A350/A370.....



"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlineNudelhirsch From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 1438 posts, RR: 19
Reply 17, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 10534 times:

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 16):
I don't see cancellations either, but it is a credibility train wreck..especially when SQ and EK were deciding between the 787 and A350/A370.....

So where is their big 787 order? It is nowhere. This is not about the credibility like if your last Mercury or Buick was bad, you'll never buy one again. Planes are a notch more complex than that. If SQ and EK are clever, they'll wait half a year and see what happens. Everything else is just an attempt to squeeze out money...

Airbus has for more than 30 years proven enough credibility. This time something went wrong, but Boeing is not always right either... The 748 is not exactly selling well... A few freighters and a VIP plane that obviously was part of a 777 deal... Boeing loses some credibility if they can only sell the 748i as part of a 20 frame 777 deal.

Too many people here treat that business like a consumer business. But in fact it is vastly different.



Putana da Seatbeltz!
User currently offlineAlanUK From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 10516 times:

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 14):
"Shares of European defense company and Airbus parent EADS fell 18% on Wednesday after the European plane manufacturer said its production program for the A380 superjumbo is being slowed down"

I find that crazy, would share holders (and airlines) prefer to start deliveries of a plane that isn't quite fit to fly?

Airbus isn't delaying the project for fun, it is doing it to ensure things work well when it flies! We don't want a rushed A380 to have an accident within a week of service now, do we?


User currently offlineJoni From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 10516 times:

Quoting CPairDC10 (Thread starter):

``We can forgive six months but I don't think we'll forgive much more than that,'' Clark told journalists at the opening of Emirates' new passenger lounge at Paris's Charles de Gaulle airport on Dec. 6.

It sounds like Emirates intends to claim compensation for the late deliveries - and sounds like they didn't demand compensation for the earlir six-month delay.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 3):

I think it could turn out to be the 'end' of bigger things than just the A380. A lot could depend on what happens to EADS' shares over the next few days.

Umm, this is still just a delay in delivering planes, not even delay in EIS. Let's see how you react when final 787 delays become known.

Quoting FXramper (Reply 7):
Can EK legally tell Airbus they don't want the A380 cause it's taking so long and order another a/c?

They can cancel their order, but that will incur cancellation costs. However they likely do have clauses in the contract that enable Emirates to claim financial compensation for the delays.


User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 60
Reply 20, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 10516 times:

Quoting Nudelhirsch (Reply 17):

So where is their big 787 order? It is nowhere. This is not about the credibility like if your last Mercury or Buick was bad, you'll never buy one again. Planes are a notch more complex than that. If SQ and EK are clever, they'll wait half a year and see what happens. Everything else is just an attempt to squeeze out money...

Who says they won't be making a decision soon? SQ have mentioned they will, not to mention, SQ and EK were waiting to see what Airbus brought to the table..

Quoting Nudelhirsch (Reply 17):
Airbus has for more than 30 years proven enough credibility. This time something went wrong, but Boeing is not always right either... The 748 is not exactly selling well... A few freighters and a VIP plane that obviously was part of a 777 deal... Boeing loses some credibility if they can only sell the 748i as part of a 20 frame 777 deal.

Care to explain why SQ and EK have ripped on Airbus regarding the A350 as well as EK basically cancelling their A346HGW order?



"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlineElVen From Greece, joined Apr 2006, 33 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 10496 times:

My feeling is that Emirates will go ahead and accept the planes plus options since all their planning is already done for this very special aircraft.

It will not be a simple story to just cancel and order and receive something else instead. Emirates like Quantas and other carriers have invested heavily in soft and hard infrastucture in order to be able to accept and incorporate in their fleets the A380.

Now are they going to ask for compensation? offcourse they will, their biggest challenge though it will be to find the adequate number of aircraft to bridge the planned capacity requirement because as much as 20 550 seat long range aircraft will be missing from the system for one year.

This is less of a problem for SQ and QF as they can delay the retirement of the 744's from their fleets the same applies to LH and AF. Etihad and QR will have the same problems as EK to meet their plans.

...On the technical side

Wiring is not an easy item to cope with. Lots of research was done during the last years to limit the weight of the cables without making any compromises in the quality and specifications.

A large aircraft like the A380 is sensitive to flactuations of the weight of the wiring as it takes just too much of it. The delays might have being caused by a manufacturing shortage/problems in ultra-light hi tech cables.

Lets not forget that Boeing just for this reason is considering WiFi connections per seat for the entertainment system.That concerns at this stage the B787 project but i am sure that it will be extended to other A/c (777,747) if the suppliers manage to meet the requirements.

Just my opinion
ElVen


User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 60
Reply 22, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 10428 times:

Quoting AlanUK (Reply 18):

I find that crazy, would share holders (and airlines) prefer to start deliveries of a plane that isn't quite fit to fly?

no..but shareholders expect anticipated results based numbers and figures given from Airbus management....and if they can't come through, then the stock should naturally take a hit....

obviously I'm glad that Airbus is taking the proper steps in dealing with this issue, as no one in their right mind would want to see a defective plane....

" Only nine of the aircraft are likely to be delivered in 2007, seriously affecting the financial results of the parent group, EADS said in a statement.
The group warned that operating profit would be cut by "about 500 million euros" ($625 million) per year between 2007 and 2010. "

www.marketwatch.com

that kills the P/E (price to earnings ratio of a stock)....



"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlineAntskip From Australia, joined Jan 2006, 910 posts, RR: 6
Reply 23, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 10428 times:

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 20):
EK were waiting to see what Airbus brought to the table..

EK are not going to make Pan Am's mistake of remaining "loyal" to one plane maker. They will buy both the B787-10 and the A370, both a generation more able than the initial B787, two generations better than the trashed A350.
They are in no rush. When the right plane is available, at the right price, they will order a stack of them. They have plenty of B777's and A380's already in the pipeline.


User currently offlineCarpethead From Japan, joined Aug 2004, 2910 posts, RR: 3
Reply 24, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 10407 times:

Even in industrial terms, a one year late delivery is totally unacceptable whatever the reason.

I wonder if EK (Tim Clark) is calling up Boeing now for more and/or accelerated deliveries on the 773ERs and RFP on the 748 for deliveries in 2010.


25 Jacobin777 : that wasn't my point....at this point in time, the A370 isn't defined, and the previous A350 was sub-standard according to EK.. EK will buy the best
26 PolymerPlane : No, the shares tumbles because of the lower than expected earnings. That's how stock market works. Cheers, PP
27 AlanUK : Than I wonder how much lower the earnings would be if the A380 crashed into the sea outside of Singapore airport, killing of 555 onboard, because a m
28 PolymerPlane : It will tumble even further. I am confused what you are trying to say. I thought you were asking why the stock tumbles 18%. Of course it tumbles. If
29 Post contains images AlanUK : PP, Thanks for the explanation, it's clear to me now. I just feel that sometimes, share holders put money and profit before safety and long term compa
30 PolymerPlane : The one thing you should remember, the share holders does not actually run the company. The management is the one who make day to day decision on run
31 Post contains links and images Jacobin777 : fair use excerpt: "Boeing Wins Singapore Airlines Order for 20 787-9s (Update4) June 14 (Bloomberg) -- Boeing Co., the world's second- largest commer
32 Post contains images Lumberton : Be careful what you ask for! SQ has already spoken. Farnborough is right around the corner....
33 DeltaDC9 : 748 - 19 in 6 months. Also they have a 63 plane backlog due to thier efforts to sell out 744 productions slots that was so successful they announced
34 PlaneHunter : No, the company won't go out of business... PH
35 Post contains links DAYflyer : If your largest and most important customer says you've got 6 months, thats how much life your program has left. Airbus as a whole would survive thou
36 Post contains images NASOCEANA : 100% agree!
37 DL021 : Well, they killed Concorde. How many in service vice how many initially ordered? I believe that was answered already. But the really big point has be
38 JAAlbert : It would be nice to see what the "370" actually is before we get excited about it's success. Right now we have no firm information on this proposed a
39 JayinKitsap : Airbus has indicated that 15 380 frames are built (their press release) including the static and fatigue frames, so that leaves 13 built and 5 flying
40 Post contains images SKA380 : I dont know if there's anything special about the wirings, but from what i hear around the contractors is that they are simply short of people. We ha
41 BoomBoom : And if they can get it right for the first nine, why not the rest?
42 DEVILFISH : The market certainly would not. And instead of earnings, you would be talking of losses and looking at huge liabilities. And you couldn't put the bla
43 Tockeyhockey : the a380 was the wrong plane at the wrong time, born out of ego and nationalistic pride more than a sensible business strategy and good engineering. i
44 AirMailer : Quick Nudelhirsch, ask for something else!! Ask for a successful, economical Concorde replacement!!
45 NYC777 : Dude what delays? Boeing isn't about to pull an Airbus. Do you have any verifiable sources, links, etc. that says the 787 is being or going to be del
46 FCKC : We can all understand the nervosity of all airlines being affected with A380 EIS delay , but these airlines should not forget they already got a huge
47 Rheinbote : You better start praying now...
48 Katekebo : Are you on Airbus management team? Your post certainly sounds like something that could come from them. These airlines should be grateful to Airbus f
49 AndesSMF : Wiring issues can be an absolute nightmare. Any wiring problems can be very difficult to trace, and a small short circuit can be very difficult to fin
50 WingedMigrator : I'm curious about this. The harness connections are not aluminum to aluminum. The pins and sockets are plated (probably copper, nickel, then gold) so
51 787engineer : Although planes are more complex, Airbus's credibility has still taken a hit from the A380 and A350 situations. The airlines will still buy the best
52 Katekebo : Copper wire is softer and more flexible. A harness made of a bunch of copper wires running together can be installed, pulled out for repair or modifi
53 SeeTheWorld : It's one thing to HAVE delays, it's quite another to HIDE delays. Had Airbus management been on top of this from a crises management point, the past
54 AndesSMF : That's one answer. The other is this: "Because aluminum conductors slowly creep under the pressure of wiring device terminals, a few residential inst
55 NYC777 : Since you're a Boeing engineer I very pleased to hear that from you. There's nothing worse then under estimating your competitor. Airbus made that mi
56 Post contains links DeltaDC9 : All I know is that aluminum wiring was the cause of a multitude of house fires when it was introduced in home construction. Based on the following in
57 Mptpa : It all depends on what the wording in their contract under "Indemnity" and "Termination". It is not a cut and dry assuption to make without knowing t
58 DTWAGENT : This is sounding just like the L-1011 vrs DC-10 production back in the 1960's or 1970's. Lockeed had to keep pushing back the delivery dates and they
59 ScottB : The EADS share price before yesterday's announcement reflected Airbus's ability to deliver the A380 to its customers on the previously firm schedule
60 Parabolica : I have to agree that most of the information points to a very dark skys over Toulouse, and indeed many European capitals. The delays in this flagship
61 BHMBAGLOCK : Capitalism does put profits high on the priority list. Remember though that profits are what pay for safety programs and benefits. Go back and look a
62 Willyj : While this new delay may affect some aircraft sales, the L-1011 and the DC-10 were very similarly sized aircraft - the A380 and the 748i are not. As
63 AndesSMF : Yes, the 747 was delayed, but not by a year. And the program delay for the 747 was never the aircraft itself or a wiring issue. It was only an engine
64 Post contains links BoeingBus : Emirates reconsidering? empty threat or are they for real? Burried in an AP article... "Emirates Airlines, another sought-after buyer, said it was rec
65 Ikramerica : It may be true for EK and QF, but honestly, I don't think it is true for even SQ that they "want" a plane of that size but rather want a plane with t
66 ER757 : I don't think they'd seriously consider cancellation. What would they get instead? The 748? Probably not - they'll be getting A380's before the EIS o
67 Phollingsworth : The problem with the delays is further compounded by the long-term effect on program viability (note: if Airbus/EADS was not protected by loan garunte
68 FlyDreamliner : It might not die, but it's odds of ever seeing profitability appear increasingly slim. Reminds me a lot of L-1011. EADS hurt the markets in general.
69 Areopagus : So, how much weight is being saved on the A380 by using aluminum wiring rather than copper?
70 FlyDreamliner : However much it is, it isn't worth it right now. Anyone who lived in the United States through the late 70s/early 80s knows better when it comes to a
71 BoeingBus : huh? whats wrong with aluminum? never heard this but I guess I was too young...
72 Lumberton : There is speculation that the 20 UFO 777s posted on Boeing's web site last week are for QR, but that hasn't been confirmed. To the best of my knowled
73 Post contains images 787engineer : Hey, until Airbus annouces they are no longer going with the current a350, it is still very much alive. All this "new A350" or "A370" stuff is a lot
74 AirMailer : If not a cancellation of A380s, maybe just extremely reduced prices to those that are affected. I wonder if any of the airlines will take delivery of
75 Sllevin : The fact that EK looked to deferring the A346's signals to me that perhaps their growth willing merely be huge instead of incredible.. They may well s
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