Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Long Haul In Economy  
User currently offlineWunalaYann From Australia, joined Mar 2005, 2839 posts, RR: 25
Posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 4320 times:

Ok.

This subject has been discussed countless times. But I am trying to test the "market" at the moment.

I am wondering about the sustainability of current travel conditions in economy class on long haul flights. I define long haul as 8 hours and beyond, non-stop.

Even on the finest airlines, I find travel conditions terrible. I know, everything has a price. And this is my point. A return ticket MEL-CDG costs an average of AUS$2,000, €1,250 or US$1,500. Roughly, with little seasonal variation.

I do not care about fancy food, supermodel F/As, soft drinks or toothbrush kits. But I do care about ROOM, width and length.

I am willing to pay AUS$3,000 for the same ticket, that is 50% more. 50%. Would I get, say, 35% more elbow and leg room? 35% more reclining angle?

A B777 can accomodate 10 abreast in 3-4-3 config. Could we do a premium economy in 2-4-2 (20% more room) or even 2-3-2 (30% more room), with the matching wider seats?

In a 772, you often find 250 seats in economy, at 10 abreasts. That is 25 rows. Cut it down to 20 (-20%), in a 8-abreast config. So that is 36% less seats (160 seats).

The airline gets 36% less potential revenue (not including the payload gains with fewer pax and their luggage), but gets paid 50% more for each seat.

That seems like a very good deal for all parties involved, to me.

Now of course if it does not exist, or if it is not so common, there must be a very good reason.

Fire away!!!  Smile

Cheers.

29 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8220 posts, RR: 8
Reply 1, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 4304 times:

Too many people traveling in the cattle car section don't have the spare money to pay the extra. When I was starting my business I couldn't justify paying more than the cheapest fare - and we're talking about between LAX & SYD. that extra 50% pays for a lot of hotel rooms - especially when you're talking about families with kids. In your example, a husband & wife worth two kids would be facing an extra AUS$4,000 - which almost covers the cost of a week at Disney World.

Some airlines, like BA, do recognize that there is a market for something a little better, but not all the way to Business. BA has World Traveler Plus, which is basically what you're talking about, and some other airlines have followed.


User currently offlineJeremy From United States of America, joined May 2001, 668 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 4279 times:

Yes, do try BA World Traveler Plus.
I flew PHL-LHR in Plus and it was fantastic! It was basically an economy service but with much more room.



You are now free to be sexually harassed and then terminated for filing a complaint--Southwest Airlines to me.
User currently offlineWunalaYann From Australia, joined Mar 2005, 2839 posts, RR: 25
Reply 3, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 4175 times:

Ok.

I was thinking that with the increase in frequent long distance travelling for personal and business purposes, combined with an ageing customer base in the western world, there would be a request for more room.

You point to more room with economy service. I think that is right. On the fine airlines serving the Kangaroo route (QF, SQ, BA, CX, EK, QR, MH, the Japanese, etc.), economy service is almost always brilliant. Genuine smiles, excellent IFE, good food, immaculate aircraft, fancy airports, etc.

So yes, I am checking World Traveler Plus on BA, will let you know!

In any case, the idea of a three-class config. like economy, premium economy and super business could probably score a few points...

Who are the others that have followed BA's example?

Cheers.


User currently offlineWunalaYann From Australia, joined Mar 2005, 2839 posts, RR: 25
Reply 4, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 4172 times:

Ok.

World Traveler Plus is not operated on MEL-LHR.

Great.

Any suggestions?  Smile


User currently offlineReyes27 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 4155 times:

I was quite impressed with BR's deluxe economy service, well with the extra $300 on a $1350 USD ticket between PHX-HKG

User currently offlineAntskip From Australia, joined Jan 2006, 927 posts, RR: 6
Reply 6, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 4109 times:

A search using travel.com.au suggests you could travel business class for A$3,800 with TG?

User currently offlineVHXLR8 From Australia, joined Feb 2005, 500 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 4035 times:

Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 4):
World Traveler Plus is not operated on MEL-LHR.

Most possibly because BA doesn't operate MEL-LHR anymore  Sad
You could always do world traveller plus SYD-LHR; the add-on MEL-SYD sector is oftn included in the fare.


User currently offlineEI747SYDNEY From Ireland, joined Oct 2005, 703 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 3928 times:

Why dont you try the Gulf Air prices, I know they have business at a very reasonable price.

Rob  Smile



''Live life on the edge, Live each and every day like it's your last, Hell you only live once''
User currently offlineManchesterMAN From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 1224 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 3923 times:

Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 3):
Who are the others that have followed BA's example?

VS
NZ
TG
BD
BR



Flown: A300,A319,A320,A321,A330,A340.A380,717,727,737,747,757,767,777,DC9,DC10,MD11,MD80,F100,F50,ERJ,E190,CRJ,BAe146,Da
User currently offlineCarpethead From Japan, joined Aug 2004, 2953 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 3879 times:

Quoting WunalaYann (Thread starter):
A B777 can accomodate 10 abreast in 3-4-3 config.

More typical layout for a 777 is 9-abreast. 3-3-3 or 2-5-2.
I don't recommend any 777 with 10-abreast with flight time over 2-hours and that's even if you are skinny.

Some airlines such as NZ and NH offer a premium economy class with additional elbow space and leg-room. UA offers economy plus without tacking too much on the travel bill.


User currently offline6thfreedom From Bermuda, joined Sep 2004, 3325 posts, RR: 20
Reply 11, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 3828 times:

Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 4):
Great.

Any suggestions?

air nz... LHR via AKL and LAX?


User currently offlineNZ8800 From New Zealand, joined May 2006, 425 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 3818 times:

You could try with NZ's premium economy, MEL - AKL - LAX - LHR.

Flight NZ6 MEL-AKL dep 1200 arr 1720, flight time 3h20, lunch served, 744.

4h25min layover at AKL.

Flight NZ2 AKL-LAX dep 2145 arr 1440, flight time 11h55min, dinner and breakfast served, 744.

Flight continues two hours later. NB: NZ have special arrangements with the US Department Of Homeland Security for passengers transiting LAX on flights NZ1 and NZ2.

Flight NZ2 LAX-LHR dep 1640 arr 1100 flight time 10h20min, dinner and breakfast served, 744.

Those flights operate from MEL seven days per week.



MDZWTA ~ Mobile Disaster Zone When Travelling Abroad
User currently offlineAntskip From Australia, joined Jan 2006, 927 posts, RR: 6
Reply 13, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 3447 times:

Quoting NZ8800 (Reply 12):
You could try with NZ's premium economy, MEL - AKL - LAX - LHR

A 3 1/2 hour NZ domestic-standard flight to AKL, and another 4 1/2 hrs sitting around at the airport there there before you really begin the journey itself is one heck of a price for a cattle premium to the wrong destination (London, not Paris) for the same number of dollars as Business class on TG to Paris.


User currently offlineNZ8800 From New Zealand, joined May 2006, 425 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 3418 times:

Oops - right you are Antskip - read that one wrong - sorry!


MDZWTA ~ Mobile Disaster Zone When Travelling Abroad
User currently offlineHKGKaiTak From Australia, joined Jun 2005, 1050 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (8 years 2 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 3345 times:

Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 3):
So yes, I am checking World Traveler Plus on BA, will let you know!

I too was quite impressed with BA's World Traveller Plus when I flew SYD-LHR couple months ago (see my posts in the Trip Reports forum). It was a lifesaver for such a long flight but 24 hours in a plane is still 24 hours in a plane.

Yet I'm not convinced it's worth the money they're charging over discounted economy (disclaimer: I travelled on a discounted travel agent ticket)

VS also flies SYD-LHR with premium economy, so that's worth looking into for you if you're willing to transit in SYD.



4 Engines 4 LongHaul
User currently offlineWunalaYann From Australia, joined Mar 2005, 2839 posts, RR: 25
Reply 16, posted (8 years 2 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 3306 times:

Thanks for all the information guys.

No worries for transit in Sydney.

I have heard that TG's business was one of the cheapest, if not the cheapest.

My point was that there could be something between cattle and business.

EK does operate its 777 in 3-4-3 config. I can tell you that out of (unfortunate) first-hand experience. Excellent service, though.

But I do not follow. You guys say BA does not operate MEL-LHR anymore. So how do I book a ticket on BA? Will they charge MEL-SYD $500?

And is BA's frequent flyer system good and affordable (unlike QF's)?

Many many thanks again for your help!


User currently offlineGoodmanr From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 297 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (8 years 2 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 3300 times:

SQ from NYC has a ton of room in Y


USAirways - Chairmans Gold
User currently offlineAntskip From Australia, joined Jan 2006, 927 posts, RR: 6
Reply 18, posted (8 years 2 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 3287 times:

I tried the BA site for premium cattle, but it seemed to say they didn't have it on this run. Do they? But VS does - @ A$3,700. But both go to LHR, not CDG. The intial post puts up some interesting points - and suggests maybe there is a place in the market for premium cattle from MEL to Europe/UK. The positive experience of premium for NZ and BA seem to be show it is an interesting growth area. Maybe NZ could expand it further...?

User currently offlineStar_world From Ireland, joined Jun 2001, 1234 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (8 years 2 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 3277 times:

Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 16):
So how do I book a ticket on BA? Will they charge MEL-SYD $500?

The best advice is to just book BA SYD-LHR and find another airline to take you from MEL-SYD. You should be able to get a fairly competitive fare on that segment. Likewise for the return. You'll probably find that you can book "BA" MEL-LHR but this will be a QF codeshare on MEL-SIN (or BKK) and then either BA or QF to LHR. You want to make sure you're on BA metal to get the option of booking WT+.

Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 16):
And is BA's frequent flyer system good and affordable (unlike QF's)?

BA and QF are both in oneworld. Some time ago BA changed the entry rules for their FF program so that anyone based in Australia would have to register with QF instead, so I don't believe you can even register for BA's Exec Club program. In any case, that's probably a good thing - the BA program is notoriously bad unless you're flying on full-fare tickets; if you book discount economy you get 25% miles and 0% elite qualifying miles. This wouldn't be the case in WT+ but, like I already said, that's probably irrelevant.


User currently offlineWunalaYann From Australia, joined Mar 2005, 2839 posts, RR: 25
Reply 20, posted (8 years 2 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 3271 times:

Maybe the costs of reconfiguring some aircraft is simply prohibitive for airlines to offer this premium economy on too many routes...

I also forgot to mention that with increasing obesity in western countries, the issue of room might become more accute in the next few years. Being a politically-sensitive subject, maybe this argument belongs on the non-av forum but I am just trying to gauge trends...

Thanks again for all the answers!


User currently offlineWarreng24 From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 707 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (8 years 2 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 3268 times:

UA has "EconomyPlus"

Same service as regular economy, same seat width, but slighty more seat pitch (leg room).


User currently offlineCairo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (8 years 2 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 3177 times:

Long haul in economy is torture. If the plane is full you don't even get assured use of an armrest - you just have to sit there with your arms in your lap praying to God that you will get there faster without going completely inane. Anyway, thats the way it affects me. If you are hungover or over 5 foot 10 tall or unable to sleep in uncomofrtable positions or just naturally irritable, forget it.

Wunala, I've been toying with your idea and the issue for a while and a couple of things have I determined:

1. the human body takes up the exact same amount of space regardless of the position it is in. Lie down or sit in a seat - it takes the same amount of space. You just have to figure out a way to configure a coach cabin in a way where everyone can lie down.

2. Food, drinks, and even IFE I think most coach flyers could live without if they could just lie in a sleeping position.

My solution:
http://kugelfisch.schucan.com/picture/Japan/Nagasaki-capsule_hotel-Gakudo.jpg


This is a Japanese capsule hotel where Tokyo businessmen pass out after a night of binge drinking. Cozy, isn't it? A bit like a morgue, I know, but I'd rather get in one of those than seat 61E in the God forsaken back of United Economy. It could be done with the same pax load as conventional seating.

Or, if you stack them 3 high, like in the navy...and you took out the overhead bins, my calculations are that you could use these and INCREASE the number of pax carried versus traditional coach seating.


Give me that over 'economy' seating anyday!

International airlines are horribly uninnovative and it will take aggressive free thinking to start a 747 or A380 centered airline that finally eliminates economy-torture-seats once and for all. Join me in my crusade!

Cairo

[Edited 2006-06-19 07:53:02]

User currently offlineWunalaYann From Australia, joined Mar 2005, 2839 posts, RR: 25
Reply 23, posted (8 years 2 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 3105 times:

Interesting view...  Smile

Very convenient when you travel with your wife/gf...  Wink Ok, let's move on.

Unfortunately more seriously, I have checked for World Traveller + on BA's Australian website for SYD-LHR and it is not available on that route!!!!!!!!!

And VS's premium economy goes well into the $3800s...

Are you sure BA offers WT+ on SYD-LHR?

Cheers.


User currently offlineAntskip From Australia, joined Jan 2006, 927 posts, RR: 6
Reply 24, posted (8 years 2 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 3024 times:

Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 23):
I have checked for World Traveller + on BA's Australian website for SYD-LHR and it is not available on that route!!!!!!!!!

exactly what I found...Australia is not well served with super-economy...other than business class, you might be best travelling economy in short hops, and spending your dollars on the way...


25 HKGKaiTak : They definitely do on BA9/10 and BA15/16. Any other flights with BA flight numbers are operated on QF metal which obviously don't have a premium econ
26 Star_world : Every BA longhaul a/c is equipped with WT+. As mentioned above, make sure you're not looking at the QF codeshares.
27 Antskip : Thanks for that! One can be easily deceived when airlines (including BA) do not make it clear that one is booking on another airline - one reason I v
28 Post contains images WunalaYann : Got it! Now the question is the dinero... Ouch. $3850
29 HKGKaiTak : Ouch indeed! Well at least that's with taxes, but still about $1500 more expensive than your discounted Y with BA ... but they fill up that cabin, so
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Austrian Long-haul In Summer 2007 posted Wed Nov 15 2006 23:34:42 by Jimyvr
Going Long Haul In The Center Row posted Fri Nov 7 2003 01:03:41 by ORBITJFK
Favourite Aircraft For Long Haul In Y Class? posted Thu Aug 21 2003 14:37:12 by Gulfair
Describe The First Time You Went Long-haul In C/F posted Tue Sep 24 2002 07:46:23 by Zrs70
UA Long-haul Gets Economy Plus. posted Mon Jan 29 2001 01:03:18 by Jiml1126
Legroom In Economy On AA Long Haul... posted Sun May 28 2006 12:14:34 by Gilesdavies
SQ Long Haul Service In Economy posted Tue Jul 20 2004 12:21:50 by Cragley
China Airlines To Place Long-haul Order In 07H1 posted Fri Nov 24 2006 22:16:01 by Jimyvr
LH To Place Long Haul Order In Dec. Won't Cut A380 posted Thu Sep 21 2006 16:28:55 by NYC777
PEA System In Varig Long Haul Flights posted Sun Feb 26 2006 17:07:18 by Jrosa