Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Crisis At Qantas Over A380 Delay?  
User currently offlineAerospaceFan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 15957 times:

According to a news report, Australia's national carrier has been thrown into "crisis" because of the latest delay of Airbus' A380 superjumbo and a high-ranking corporate executive has been dispatched to Toulouse with orders to seek the reasons behind the postponement.

The report says that Qantas will seek major compensation from Airbus as a consequence of the delay, which is expected to postpone its introduction of the A380 by up to 14 months.

See:

http://www.couriermail.news.com.au/story/0,20797,19533655-3122,00.html

[Edited 2006-06-20 20:21:09]

121 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDAYflyer From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 3807 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 15940 times:

Another added to the sad string of problems facing Airbus. ILFC snd MAS are considering cancellation of orders. Qantas would have the legal authority to do so as well I would think.

I wonder how much blood Qantas is going to want. Perhaps they will use the threat of cancellation to extract a major refund.



One Nation Under God
User currently offlineAerospaceFan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 15887 times:

I think there would be less attention to this matter if there hadn't been such a ballyhoo created by the grand unveiling of the A380 to begin with. For example, being associated with such a uniquely prestigious project could have made it more difficult for those directly in charge of the technical aspects of a matter to tell upper management that there were the possibilities for a major delay. Thus, there is something of a "snowball" effect -- attention leads to more attention, in a strange way, until now, everyone is fascinated by what increasingly appears to be a figurate train wreck.

This is aside from the effect of such association on upper management itself.

I note that previous Airbus products never created such a sensation.

It's time for everyone to step back and to try to solve this problem rationally.

[Edited 2006-06-20 20:30:10]

User currently offlineTVNWZ From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 2372 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 15843 times:

You will see every airline that ordered the plane now act SHOCKED! at the delay. They will all go to France huffing and puffing, demanding answers.

What they are really doing is renegotiating the deal. The deal is never done until they have to pay the invoice. And if all these problems (real and imagined) can give the airlines leverage to get a million off here, a million off there, over what is contractually owed then they will huff and puff.

Just business.


User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21511 posts, RR: 60
Reply 4, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 15815 times:

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 1):
Another added to the sad string of problems facing Airbus. ILFC snd MAS are considering cancellation of orders. Qantas would have the legal authority to do so as well I would think.

but it sounds like QF can't afford to cancel them because they need them and had planned for them more than any other carrier besides maybe EK.

Unlike SQ or LH or whoever, QF was planning on using them in a place where not just their capacity could be used, but where their PERFORMANCE was necessary (MEL to LAX).

One would imagine part of the reason QF is going to Toulouse is to make sure that part of the problem isn't performance shortfall. If it is, you can bet they will have to cancel and be the launch customer for the 748i, and now that they've waited on that already, the 748i will be a few months later EIS than when first offered last fall.

One has to wonder, too, if the rumored 748i stretch is not in direct response to customers asking Boeing to give them a plane closer to the A380 so they can cancel them and move on...

Will this also lead to QF firming up options on the 787 and leading Boeing to open the second 787 line as soon as they possibly can?



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineAtmx2000 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4576 posts, RR: 38
Reply 5, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 15815 times:

Quoting TVNWZ (Reply 3):

You will see every airline that ordered the plane now act SHOCKED! at the delay. They will all go to France huffing and puffing, demanding answers.

What they are really doing is renegotiating the deal. The deal is never done until they have to pay the invoice. And if all these problems (real and imagined) can give the airlines leverage to get a million off here, a million off there, over what is contractually owed then they will huff and puff.

Yup, lot's of drama here to get extract more concessions from Airbus.

But in the end its all going to be paid for by the taxpayers of the EU.  Wink



ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
User currently offlineAerospaceFan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 15769 times:

Quoting TVNWZ (Reply 3):
What they are really doing is renegotiating the deal. The deal is never done until they have to pay the invoice. And if all these problems (real and imagined) can give the airlines leverage to get a million off here, a million off there, over what is contractually owed then they will huff and puff.

That's a good point.

I do know that I want to fly on an A380 one day. The aircraft is a nice idea, an amazing achievement, and perhaps the wave of the future. The only question in my mind is precisely when that future is.


User currently offlineAither From South Korea, joined Oct 2004, 858 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 15769 times:

At least it's good to see the airlines wanting so much the A380 ASAP.


Never trust the obvious
User currently offlineNudelhirsch From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 1438 posts, RR: 19
Reply 8, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 15708 times:

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 4):
Unlike SQ or LH or whoever, QF was planning on using them in a place where not just their capacity could be used, but where their PERFORMANCE was necessary (MEL to LAX).

Unlike other airlines, LH needs the 380 as a cure against tight slot restriction on high density routes...



Too many of our people here see airlines like consumers. John Doe buys the special of the week at Walgreens because it is on sale. Airlines spending billions spend a little more time considering what they do.
The 380 is a new kind of animal, due to size, performance, ground handling, I am not saying it is a revolution or so, it is just significantly different from what we have seen so far.
So, are airlines now just sending their managers on a golf trip to Toulouse, and on the way back they just purchase 15 380s, because they are on sale right now?
QF needs the planes. SQ does. EK does. LH does. Otherwise they would not have committed to that investment, by making down payments, raising the $$ for the investment... They purchased the 380 because that is how they are planning to develop their fleet.

The only reason for QF to go to Toulouse is a discount. Either right now, or on a new deal. Business as usual. I am quite sure that Leahy is mentioning the new 32S concept and a possible discount while they are in Toulouse...

Reading all those 380-bashing threads, about airlines not willing to accept the delay and to bail out, that's plain ridiculous. Airlines are not in the business of instant gratification, they make long term plans.
On top of that, they are all launch customers. They new from the beginning that a delay might happen, hey are now just hoping for a quick $, either cash right away, or a good deal in the future.
Fairly unlikely that airlines are using a.net as a recruiting platform for new managers: "what? we have to wait 6 more months for the plane we plan our future with? let's get out of the deal..."



Putana da Seatbeltz!
User currently offlineNYC777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5750 posts, RR: 47
Reply 9, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 15684 times:

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 4):
One has to wonder, too, if the rumored 748i stretch is not in direct response to customers asking Boeing to give them a plane closer to the A380 so they can cancel them and move on...

I would think that Boeing can come in and actually play spoiler be taking away some of the A380 orders. But Boeing would have it's work cut out for it by migrating 787 technologies and engines to the 748I as well as doing a stretch that would make the airlines feel comfortable. Perhaps if GE and RR can do engines with an increase in thrust this will give Boeing an opportunity to give airlines and higher MTOW 748I that would have tremendous economics over the A380.



That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21511 posts, RR: 60
Reply 10, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 15656 times:

Quoting Nudelhirsch (Reply 8):
Reading all those 380-bashing threads, about airlines not willing to accept the delay and to bail out, that's plain ridiculous.

Happens all the time. What's ridiculous is dismissing it.

Airlines who are having problems unrelated to the A380 now have an out. Airlines that were relying on the A380 can now look elsewhere as their delivery slots get closer and closer to the availability of the 748i, for example.

I personally think the A380 might be the next MD11, with so many problems at the start that it ruined the program for the long term. But in service, many liked their MD11s, and as a freighter it is top notch. Though the A380 won't be as valuable a freighter conversion in my estimation...



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineAirMailer From United States of America, joined May 2006, 465 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 15656 times:

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 5):
Yup, lot's of drama here to get extract more concessions from Airbus.

But in the end its all going to be paid for by the taxpayers of the EU.

I hate to do this, but you have a point.

What you're saying is that some time late next year (or maybe the year after that), I may be taking a trip to Sydney, and technically it will have been indirectly subsudized by the EU taxpayers?

 duck 

I lived in D.C. for a long time. I know that the simple fact that someone could make that statement is not going to go over well at the ballot box.


User currently offlineAirMailer From United States of America, joined May 2006, 465 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 15580 times:

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 4):
but it sounds like QF can't afford to cancel them because they need them and had planned for them more than any other carrier besides maybe EK.

Unlike SQ or LH or whoever, QF was planning on using them in a place where not just their capacity could be used, but where their PERFORMANCE was necessary (MEL to LAX).

Maybe ILFC could purchase some 777-LR and short-term lease them to QF?

Just a thought.


User currently offlineTravelin man From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3495 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 15540 times:

Quoting Nudelhirsch (Reply 8):
Either right now, or on a new deal. Business as usual. I am quite sure that Leahy is mentioning the new 32S concept and a possible discount while they are in Toulouse...

I have a difficult time believing that Qantas will want to be on the "bleeding edge" of ANY new Airbus product offering in the future.


User currently offlineCM767 From Panama, joined Dec 2004, 654 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 15475 times:

Quoting Nudelhirsch (Reply 8):
On top of that, they are all launch customers. They new from the beginning that a delay might happen, hey are now just hoping for a quick $, either cash right away, or a good deal in the future.

Exactly, take into account launch discounts and add to that compensation for the delays. They will be fools to walk out now, my strong believe is that we would not see major cancellations on the A380.



But The Best Thing God Has Created Is A New Day
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21511 posts, RR: 60
Reply 15, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 15434 times:

Quoting AirMailer (Reply 12):
Maybe ILFC could purchase some 777-LR and short-term lease them to QF?

They can't get 772LRs before QF would get their 380s.

That's the problem. QF can't get 777s, 787s or 748is before they will get 380s, but they can get them at about the same time as they would be getting most of their 380s. They could take 346HGWs I guess, but I don't think they really improve on the performance issues the 744s now face



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineNudelhirsch From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 1438 posts, RR: 19
Reply 16, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 15378 times:

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 10):
Airlines that were relying on the A380 can now look elsewhere as their delivery slots get closer and closer to the availability of the 748i, for example.

Baloney! The only airlines that really come closer to the EIS of the 748 are the ones that receive the first deliveries. They would be stupid to cancel now.

The other airlines were planning on later slots and don't tell me they didn't have a clue about the 748 before it's official launch. They knew for a while that Boeing is working on something. Yet they bought the 380 and if the 748 was that much better for them than the 380, they would have switched a while ago, I could imagine Boeing is giving some nice discounts to finally get a launch customer for the 748. They would have switched by now, if they didn't, that's a statement for the 380.
BTW, neither the 787 nor the 748 are granted to be on time, we'll see how that turns out. Hopefully well, yet a lot can happen. Why risk another delay, just to satisfy some a.net people who want to see Airbus going down?



Putana da Seatbeltz!
User currently offlineAerospaceFan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 15342 times:

Quoting Nudelhirsch (Reply 16):
BTW, neither the 787 nor the 748 are granted to be on time, we'll see how that turns out. Hopefully well, yet a lot can happen. Why risk another delay, just to satisfy some a.net people who want to see Airbus going down?

Well, for that matter, we don't know that any "A370" would be on time, either, do we? And I don't need to point out that the A380 hasn't turned out to be. So this statement is a wash.

[Edited 2006-06-20 21:54:49]

User currently offlineNudelhirsch From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 1438 posts, RR: 19
Reply 18, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 15263 times:

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 17):
Well, for that matter, we don't know that any "A370" would be on time, either, would we? And I don't need to point out that the A380 hasn't turned out to be. So this statement is a wash.

No, we don't know about the EIS on time performance of 748, 787 and 350/370. But the 380 EIS is right around the corner, it's late but it's going to happen soon. So it's no wash. The 748 has some high performance goals to meet, delays can happen. Nobody can guarantee that it's EIS will not be delayed by 6-12 months, so why take another risk, buy a plane that is not 100% the class you planned your future with, and drop slots for a plane you got with a nice discount, including Airbus taking you to a golf ressort or whatever compensation they are offering right now? Sure worth a wait...



Putana da Seatbeltz!
User currently offlineDeltaDC9 From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 2844 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 15229 times:

Quoting Nudelhirsch (Reply 8):
On top of that, they are all launch customers. They new from the beginning that a delay might happen, hey are now just hoping for a quick $, either cash right away, or a good deal in the future.

They assumed a certain amount of risk for a certain amount of reward, it appears that amount of risk has been exceeded. Being a launch customer does not mean that anything can happen and it is OK and covered in the penalty clause, it means that if things go bad you get compensated, if things go really bad you can bail. Are we to that point? Possibly.

Quoting Nudelhirsch (Reply 16):
The other airlines were planning on later slots and don't tell me they didn't have a clue about the 748 before it's official launch. They knew for a while that Boeing is working on something. Yet they bought the 380 and if the 748 was that much better for them than the 380, they would have switched a while ago, I could imagine Boeing is giving some nice discounts to finally get a launch customer for the 748. They would have switched by now, if they didn't, that's a statement for the 380.

No one, not even Boeing, knew if they would offer the 748 until last year AFTER most 380 orders were places. Boeing has been tossing around ideas for a new 747 since the early 90's. Fleet planners can't make decisions on what Boeing might do, only on what Boeing is offering to sell at that time.

The last 6 months is not an indicator of what the future holds, the service life of the existing 744's is the indicator. Customers cancelling the 380 and going with thew 748 are just icing, but it is icing that Boeing does not NEED for the program to be profitable.

They cant just "switch" either, that is a completely ignorant statement.

The comment about discounts is laughable, Boeing does not have to sell one 748 passenger for the 748 to make money. That is the whole beauty of the program. Have they relied on passenger 744 sales for profitability? Nope.



Dont take life too seriously because you will never get out of it alive - Bugs Bunny
User currently offlineANstar From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2003, 5190 posts, RR: 6
Reply 20, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 15206 times:

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 15):
They could take 346HGWs I guess, but I don't think they really improve on the performance issues the 744s now face

Lets see if Airbus offer temporary capacity to meet QF's need in the interim. I wouldn;t be surprised if we see some A346 birds in QF livery for a 2 year period. (Obviously at not much expense to QF)


User currently offlineAerospaceFan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 15206 times:

Quoting Nudelhirsch (Reply 20):
the 380 EIS is right around the corner, it's late but it's going to happen soon. So it's no wash. The 748 has some high performance goals to meet, delays can happen.

It seems to me that this is not really a good argument, because you're merely conceding that Airbus has had a very bad track record in the last year concerning its delivery scheduling for the A380. There is no indication that, merely because Airbus has accumulated a delay of a year or more that contravenes its promises to several airlines, any development of any other aircraft by any other company is going to encounter the same delay. In fact, anything more than a two- or three-month delay in such deliveries has been quite rare in initial deliveries of large airliners of new design.

I am not aware that initial deliveries for the last few airliner designs by Boeing prior to the 787 -- i.e., the 757, 767, and 777 -- were delayed by up to 14 months. I'd have to check, but I think that they were initially delivered on time or nearly so.

Your argument, however, relies on the supposition that Boeing's 747-8 could be delayed significantly, which is made even more unlikely than it appears by the fact that the 747-8 is a stretch, and not a new design. The same supposition applies, with the same fault, to the 787, with the relatively minor modification that in that case, it is a new design; it, too, need not be delayed merely because the A380 has been.

So I really cannot agree with your conclusion in this respect.

[Edited 2006-06-20 21:50:53]

User currently offlineNYC777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5750 posts, RR: 47
Reply 22, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 15206 times:

Quoting Nudelhirsch (Reply 20):
No, we don't know about the EIS on time performance of 748, 787 and 350/370. But the 380 EIS is right around the corner, it's late but it's going to happen soon. So it's no wash. The 748 has some high performance goals to meet, delays can happen. Nobody can guarantee that it's EIS will not be delayed by 6-12 months, so why take another risk, buy a plane that is not 100% the class you planned your future with, and drop slots for a plane you got with a nice discount, including Airbus taking you to a golf ressort or whatever compensation they are offering right now? Sure worth a wait...

Because Boeing has a history of meeting performance and delivery goals, Airbus does not.



That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently offlineUSAF336TFS From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 1445 posts, RR: 52
Reply 23, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 15134 times:

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 17):
Well, for that matter, we don't know that any "A370" would be on time, either, would we? And I don't need to point out that the A380 hasn't turned out to be. So this statement is a wash.

Absolutely! And, as you correctly pointed out, none of us really knows if there will, in fact, be an A370. IMHO, with all the issues surrounding Airbus right now, the safest thing for them to do is produce the A350 in it's present form.



336th Tactical Fighter Squadron, 4th Fighter Wing, Seymour Johnson AFB
User currently offlineNudelhirsch From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 1438 posts, RR: 19
Reply 24, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 15111 times:

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 21):
They assumed a certain amount of risk for a certain amount of reward, it appears that amount of risk has been exceeded. Being a launch customer does not mean that anything can happen and it is OK and covered in the penalty clause, it means that if things go bad you get compensated, if things go really bad you can bail. Are we to that point? Possibly.

Sure. Now it went bad, so the compensations grow. Not a bad deal for airlines. Some airlines are capable of short notice fleet planning, so adapt...

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 21):
No one, not even Boeing, knew if they would offer the 748 until last year AFTER most 380 orders were places. Boeing has been tossing around ideas for a new 747 since the early 90's. Fleet planners can't make decisions on what Boeing might do, only on what Boeing is offering to sell at that time.

Is that an official statement from Boeing? If not, I highly doubt that. They started thinking about a counter-strike the moment Airbus launched the 3XX, or even sooner than that. Don't tell me that Boeing just quickly had the idea to give the 744 a makeover, that's nothing that a manager decides on a Sunday afternoon walk with his dog.

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 21):
The last 6 months is not an indicator of what the future holds, the service life of the existing 744's is the indicator. Customers cancelling the 380 and going with thew 748 are just icing, but it is icing that Boeing does not NEED for the program to be profitable.

Boeing needs a lot of icing on the 748i-cake. So far the icing has been quite thin though. Nobody changed from 380 to 748i either. Problem for Boeing is, the 748 is going to replace 744s which are still good. Tough one. But the 308 is a niche, SQ, QF, LH, they all operate 744s. EK has similar planes already. The 380 is not substituting anything and it cannot be substituted by anything right now. That's why the orders are pretty safe and that's why the 748i is not selling yet. Give it some years, a replacement for the 744 will be highly needed by SQ, QF, LH, BA, UA, CX, ANA, and many more... Right now the 744 is not due for replacement yet and that is what the 748 is.
Different scenario - go bigger AND smaller to replace the 744, quite possible with 777, 330, 340, 380... Is it happening? Not so far, LH is not phasing out the 744 for a while, and the other airlines aren't either.

Tough situation for the 748 (which is a very nice plane, no question!), but the 380 has a different situation. That is too often mixed up. Some of our armchair CEOs suggest replacing 380 orders by 2 787 each - baloney, because that is not going to help on high density routes and especially not in slot restricted airports. Different markets...

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 21):
Boeing does not have to sell one 748 passenger for the 748 to make money.

Another official Boeing management statement? Are you working in the top floors there? You sure are aware of the fact that freighters and pax versions have more differences than just missing PTV, right? Even on a revamp, both need engineering. Especially with a stretch of any part. So the one VIP 748 is definitely not giving the 748i the break-even, unless the revamp is limited to a new cockpit color, which does not justify investing in new 748i anyway... But there's more, so the break-even is a bit further away than selling nothing.



Putana da Seatbeltz!
25 PlaneHunter : Which is not a golden rule forever. PH
26 AerospaceFan : Thanks, USAF336TFS -- I appreciate your support and comment. It seems to me that Airbus would be a bit overstretched -- make that, severely overstretc
27 DeltaDC9 : Actually, it is most similar to the 737NG project. New engines, better wings with simplified flaps, some FBW, and more stretch. The basic design is t
28 NYC777 : Except at Airbus where it seems it is the rule ratherr than the exception.
29 Nudelhirsch : True. Need not. But might happen. The 380 has no need of being delayed, yet it is. Stuff like that happens. Any EIS is not safe as a projection, it o
30 PlaneHunter : As I already said, things may change. It would be naive to assume Airbus continues its streak of missed targets in the future. PH
31 EbbUK : It was very unwise to have a sense of pride at the roll out of this technical marvel. Only European pride comes before a fall, for Boeing what happen
32 NYC777 : do that and they will lose more than just the A380 business to Boeing. And don't fool yourself if Qantas won't ask for bids from Airbus and put RFPs
33 NorCal : Nothing needs to be assumed, they missed the EIS target, but if the rumors about exceeding performance targets are true then I think those airlines w
34 EbbUK : Duh! they've blown it already, QF went for the 787. What more can we lose from QF? They cancel the 380 take more 744's till the 748 comes, Boeing wil
35 Ikramerica : Wow, so abusive from someone so wrong. Many of the carriers who "knew" about all this ordered the plane 3-4 years ago and were hoping that by 2008 or
36 BoomBoom : Like, buy 9 A380s and get the 10th one free? Don't forget, those rumors come from Airbus with absolutely nothing to back them up. It's easy to exceed
37 Ikramerica : The same company who said that there were no more delays last month, who said there would be no spacing issues due to wake, that the wing would be ce
38 AirMailer : You mean the first of it's kind financing of a major civil aircraft project by of all things, a bank?
39 D L X : Huh? Exactly. You don't "assume the risk" that you won't actually get the planes. Airbus promised something, and if (and it's looking more like when)
40 AerospaceFan : Not to mention that Airbus might be seen as a "French" company and Bill O'Reilly might get into the act. Oh, that Bill O'Reilly. Such a card.[Edited
41 Post contains images Ikramerica : Boycott French dressing!!!!
42 AirMailer : Owned by the French government (Didn't DaimlerChrystler (German) and BAE (U.K.) just initiate actions to sell off their shares), financed be the Fren
43 AerospaceFan : AirMailer, my understanding is that the Germans have a substantial interest in EADS/Airbus, but my grasp of the technicalities of how they own their i
44 F14ATomcat : I am sorry to have to reply to this statement, but this is one the biggest entry fiascos ever. The L-1011, courtesy of the sole engine suppliers bank
45 Aussie747 : How quickly could QF get brand spanking new 744ER models, as an interim.
46 Tugger : Getting Back on topic... I guess if Qantas was basing its financial model on a particular RASM that required the 380 then they could be having a crisi
47 11Bravo : In short, never. There is only one production slot available for the B744 series (early 2009?). All the slots after that (late 2009) will be B748. I
48 USAF336TFS : Whether or not EADS/Airbus is considered a French company is largely a matter of perception. It's actually controlled multi nationally. There is one u
49 Miami1 : People seem to forget that when the first B747's flew in the late sixies they had many a problem. They aircraft almost sent Boeing bankrupt and they l
50 EbbUK : is that Boeing's name for the Japanese government, amongst others that have given money to the project? I like it Close the company down, the gaul of
51 Trex8 : tell that to the Fedex CEO, or maybe you'll have better luck doing his job for him, what was it he said, about 200 A380Freighters in the future and y
52 BHMBAGLOCK : I don't think this is correct, Boeing is running the line at minimal capacity to keep it warm and ready for 748. I think they'd be perfectly happy to
53 Texfly101 : This is so true. No manufactor makes their products in a vacuum. Contingency plans are a specific need for any program. Boeing has always had plans i
54 FlyDreamliner : All I have to say is this, the 748i according to Boeing is going to surpass it's design specs in terms of range and fuel burn. If A380 doesn't perfor
55 PlaneHunter : Check again. Now what - probably or sure? Not right, totally wrong. Ever heard of Gustav Humbert and Tom Enders? If not, google may help... PH
56 EK413 : Nudelhirsch Unlike other airlines, LH needs the 380 as a cure against tight slot restriction on high density routes... Slot constraints??? The A380 is
57 Ikramerica : What a childish reply. I pointed to clear, RECENT, fabrications or bad spin by Airbus, and you equate that to condemning all of the EU? Grow up. The
58 Kangar : Never before have I seen Airbus make so many people so happy.......
59 TrevD : Actually all 744 or 744ER positions are now taken and Boeing is contractually committed to 748 production from mid-09 on with first deliveries in Sep
60 ANstar : I think QF will stick with the A380's. they just need to get soem compensation for delay of EIS
61 Parabolica : Good Morning all, My fellow Europeans, what is with all this nervous, defensive, arguing and cheap rebuttles? The Airbus consortium has made some pret
62 Jetfuel : So I guess we would all rather Airbus cover up the delays, push the fast forward on production and risk finishing some potentially dangerous, unreliab
63 AirMailer : Thank you for that clarrification USAF336TFS.
64 DeltaDC9 : A lot of people, not just Americans, have doubted the decision to go with the 380 when Airbus did. As I have said many times here, if they had replac
65 USAF336TFS : Thank you for the kind words AirMailer. Although most of the "regulars" are keenly aware of this fact, judging from some of the above comments, many
66 StarGoldLHR : Dont forget who ever cancels.. those slots become available for someone else.. and hence reduces the overall delay for everyone else
67 DeltaDC9 : Only for the early slots, late slots wont have much affect at all.
68 KLMcedric : There is no USA envy whatsoever in Europe, just a lot of differences in opinions. Never ever have I met a fellow European who wish he'd live in the U
69 BlueSky1976 : I believe A400 is actually a C-17 class transport, maybe slightly smaller, but definitely larger than C-130. Y3 is still their next big jet - for pas
70 AerospaceFan : I just want to say: I don't care if the A380 is a complete business failure; as I said yesterday, to me, it's still a kick-ass plane. Like King Canute
71 Post contains images AirMailer : Where is the smilie for *Fell Out of My Chair*?
72 Coa747 : I believe one of the biggest headaches for Airbus is their very complicated and inefficent transport system devised to transport major A380 sections.
73 Coa747 : I believe one of the biggest headaches for Airbus is their very complicated and inefficent transport system devised to transport major A380 sections.
74 BlueSky1976 : I can't think of a better way to put it myself. Welcome to my RU list.
75 Post contains images 11Bravo : That is true, but Boeing has not announced additional slots are available for the B744 series. That may well come to pass, but for now it's just the
76 Post contains images PlaneHunter : Sorry, but I fail to see where's the "cheap shot". My point is that Airbus may meet targets in the future - so where's the "shot" at Boeing? PH
77 AerospaceFan : Thank you! I greatly respect and appreciate your support.
78 Post contains images AirMailer : Sorry to bust your bubble, but I couldn't care less who you envy. For the record, I envy the people in Key West. You must not get out to the U.S. muc
79 Parabolica : Good Afternoon Planehunter: The shot is that in a well-documented, well spoken and mature series of discussions about the difficulties at Airbus, the
80 Ikramerica : No, just be MORE open with the delays when they are happening and not months later, and maybe, just maybe, cancel some vacations to get this ship out
81 Post contains images PlaneHunter : That statement was aimed at those who seem to regard the histories of meeting and missing targets as fixed or naturally given. My point simply is tha
82 Post contains images Glacote : These are not rumours. These are the leading test engineer telling that after a significant number of tests flight the fuel burn is lower, the climb
83 Post contains links ANstar : Another article re QF asking for stop gap aircraft from Airbus - prob A333's http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/com...ge/0,5478,19558802%255E664,00.html
84 Aussie747 : Even if Airbus gives QF A330's as an interim measure. How is it going to help QF cope with / expand Long Haul ops. The only route the A330 can go wher
85 EbbUK : There area a couple of 345's for sale aren't there? that's a start. Could we not get Cx's love affair with the T73ER to start earlier and get the ILFC
86 Post contains images Jacobin777 : wouldn't be worth it considering all the crew training, fleet MX, as well as other things needed... iIf anything, I think QF should purchase a dozen
87 Revelation : Is not the inability to design, deliver and install wiring harnesses in a timely fashion a technical failure?[Edited 2006-06-24 14:07:37]
88 Post contains images B707Stu : You got this right. Business as usual. And if I was paying that much for a product like the A380 and did my business plan around it for the future I'
89 Post contains links Revelation : Ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Md11 Note the significant difference was that customers had viable alternatives, whereas like it or not, there real
90 B707Stu : " target=_blank>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Md11 Thanks - I was wondering if it was the MD-11 that underperformed. But is the Boeing upgraded 747 not
91 Revelation : Well, QF is a large Boeing operator, but they haven't bailed on the A380. Keep in mind that even though their A380s will be late, they will still arr
92 USAF336TFS : I agree with you Rev, but Dixon's also said that he's quite interested in the 747-8i, and coincidentally (Or is it?), Boeing just happens to be inves
93 Post contains images Zvezda : Obviously not. That emmigration from Europe to the States is much greater than the other direction can't be evidence of anything. That would just be
94 Glacote : In all fairness the A388 is definitely delayed. But if the only issue actually is wiring then you could argue that only the PTV system is in delay. B
95 Zvezda : Airbus roughly knew the B777-200LR and B777-300ER were coming, knew that the A340 was heavy and had dispatch reliability problems, and knew that soon
96 OldAeroGuy : Beyond the statement after the early (ninth?) flight, do you have a source for the lower fuel burn announcement?
97 ANstar : Why have 2 different types to fit the one role? I think as long as the A380 lives up to performance criteria then QF will NOT order any 748's.
98 Rheinbote : Using basic knowledge in aircraft design and a calculator it was easy to figure out from the beginning that the life of the A3456 program was limited
99 Glacote : Yes but at that point the aircraft had long reached break-even and could be sold at steeper discounts yet preserving margins. Now this only holds if
100 DfwRevolution : (1) QF will simply not have a long-term fleet that consist of A388 and 787 with nothing in-between. There are strong indications from CEO Geoff Dixon
101 Gemuser : Wouldn't bet on it! While you might be right QF International have for over 20 years operated with just two basic aircraft types. Why couldn't the A3
102 DfwRevolution : Except that QF has said they don't want a seat gap that large. Flexibility is a good thing!
103 ChrisNH : Yes...at least. Way to rationalize there, dude.
104 Ikramerica : Check your facts. The 748i has a greater wingspan than the 744, has a new wing shape and new flaps, has different engines, and is 5% heavier MTOW and
105 OldAeroGuy : The A345/6 started a whole break even point round for the A340 due to the extensive and expensive wing revisions required. You don't increase the win
106 Molykote : Except those producing 787 parts! (bad engineering joke)
107 ANstar : QF will have the A380 for missions to LHR/LAX. The other 744 routes I can see being dowsnized to 787 (poss the -10 variant when it is released) and h
108 Zvezda : I see no reason why QF couldn't fly two B787s to LAX rather than one JumboJet or WhaleJet. That's a bad problem to have. Daily flights generate highe
109 ZK-NBT : I pretty much disagree there with those 3 routes, JNB flies along way South towards Antartica and ETOPS would be a problem, its now a 5x weekly 744 a
110 ANstar : Good points above - didnt realsied the JNB/BNE flights had been increased. I just don't see the 748 AND the A380 with QF. If the 748 get stretched, t
111 Zvezda : It's not just the difference in capacity. It's the difference in CASM. If the SuperJumbo is stretched from 450 to 500 seats, the CASM advantage over
112 Rheinbote : Wait a moment, you mean the A3456 had achieved break-even by then?
113 Gemuser : What would be the point having two 787 flying wing tip to wing tip across the Pacific? And sitting around LAX all day. Surely it would be cheaper to
114 Zvezda : Lower cost, higher revenue, less risk of market downturn, the premium passengers are better accommodated during IrOps. That seems not to be the case.
115 DeltaDC9 : What is the point of that whole response? The entire industry has trended towards more frequency, and airlines have found that 250 seats in the morni
116 PlaneHunter : And still, that remains to be proven in reality. PH
117 Zvezda : Looking at LAX-SYD, the flights all depart from 22:30 to 23:50 and arrive in the early morning. It would be possible to depart in the morning and arr
118 DeltaDC9 : I do not dispute any of that, my point was that whether or not the planes flww at the same time or different times, it makes no difference and two ad
119 Zvezda : True, maybe the WhaleJet will turn out to be 10 tonnes lighter than Airbus claim. Flying at different times usually results in higher yields than fly
120 Gemuser : NOT on flights over about 12 hours! Because of time zone and curfew consideration. It varies dramattically route by route. Afternoon/evening arrivals
121 ZK-NBT : I do agree with that. How do QF do out of FRA? I'd have thought with SQ using their A380's to OZ that QF would use them throught SIN. However I do ag
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
French House, Villepin In Turmoil Over A380 Delay posted Tue Jun 20 2006 19:18:41 by AerospaceFan
Qantas At LHR & A380 posted Fri May 19 2006 16:00:30 by B742
SQ Furious About A380 Delay & Looking At A380F.. posted Thu Aug 25 2005 17:01:55 by Keesje
Singapore Furious At A380 Delay May Sue Airbus posted Sat Aug 6 2005 16:47:13 by KarlB737
Korean Air Announces 2 Year A380 Delay To 2010 posted Wed Nov 15 2006 07:01:32 by Singapore_Air
FI: A380 Crisis: Can Boeing Exploit A380 Delays? posted Mon Oct 9 2006 18:31:12 by Leelaw
Airbus Pays Kingfisher $22 Millions For A380 Delay posted Fri Oct 6 2006 11:08:54 by Thorben
A380 Delay Forces RR To Suspend Trent Production posted Thu Oct 5 2006 21:25:00 by Leelaw
Airbus Parent Eads Pounded Over A380 Delays posted Wed Oct 4 2006 18:19:59 by BoomBoom
Airline Most Affected By A380 Delay? posted Wed Oct 4 2006 12:21:03 by EbbUK