Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
India: The Missing Link In UA's Asia Network  
User currently offlineCHI787ORD From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 524 posts, RR: 4
Posted (8 years 3 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 3607 times:

Now that DL has announced JFK-BOM, the more I fel that UA is losing a great opportunity in India. UA has consistently been known as the #1 US carrier to Asia, but without India (now being called "The New China") UA's network is incomplete. I know this thread has been done many times before, but I still want to read more discussions on various rumors we have heard concerning UA and their India plans, and also what the aviation pundits on this board think about what would be best for UA when considering India.

35 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11639 posts, RR: 61
Reply 1, posted (8 years 3 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 3596 times:

While I definitely agree with your basic premise that India represents a whole in the United network (especially considering that now ever single other U.S. competitor flies there), I question whether United could viably serve the market. Flying via a European hub (presumably Frankfurt or Heathrow) presents problems as it's no longer competitive with U.S. airlines' nonstop offerings, plus slots would be an issue at Heathrow and Lufthansa would be an issue at Frankfurt. However, if nonstop is the way to go, what routes could United fly? Perhaps Chicago-Delhi nonstop, or San Francisco-Delhi nonstop, or Dulles-Delhi nonstop? I believe United tried Chicago-Delhi once already, but may have jumped the gun too early on that market. Now, they may have missed their shot, as American is already established in the market, and I question whether Chicago-India could truly support two daily flights. Could San Francisco or Dulles support a nonstop to India? Maybe, I don't know.

User currently offlineJetdeltamsy From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 2987 posts, RR: 7
Reply 2, posted (8 years 3 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 3580 times:

United was set to begin Chicago to Delhi service before the bankruptcy.

From what I read about India, the country is emerging from it's poverty stricken history and is slowly remaking itself into a democratic and economic powerhouse.

I've been to Bombay, New Delhi and Bangalore within the last 10 years. All 3 struck me as desperately poor places.

It will be interesting to see where the country and international air service is in another 5 years.



Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
User currently offlineCHI787ORD From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 524 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (8 years 3 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 3571 times:

Quoting Commavia (Reply 1):
I believe United tried Chicago-Delhi once already, but may have jumped the gun too early on that market. Now, they may have missed their shot, as American is already established in the market, and I question whether Chicago-India could truly support two daily flights. Could San Francisco or Dulles support a nonstop to India

I heard before that UA was considering ORD-DEL with a BOM extension. I think under those circumstances it could've worked, similar to UA in Brazil with GRU and GIG. However, now that DL has a nonstop, what about a routing such as ORD-DEL-BLR? I like the sound of that.


User currently offlineCHI787ORD From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 524 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (8 years 3 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 3559 times:

Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 2):
From what I read about India, the country is emerging from it's poverty stricken history and is slowly remaking itself into a democratic and economic powerhouse.

I've been to Bombay, New Delhi and Bangalore within the last 10 years. All 3 struck me as desperately poor places.

It will be interesting to see where the country and international air service is in another 5 years.

If you're even more interested, check out this weeks issue in TIME, the cover story is all about emerging India and the ramifications it will have around the world.


User currently offlineAADC10 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 2092 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (8 years 3 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 3514 times:

It looks like UA will take a wait and see attitude. Obviously UA has served Inida from time to time but becasue of the open skies agreements and the new flights, the market seems to be overserved in the short term.

The other problem is that only their 744s have the range to reach India from the U.S., and just barely at that. Keeping it full would be difficult. At this point, they would probably want to focus on China and keep enough planes available for a flight to Guangzhou.


User currently offlineKkfla737 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 1033 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (8 years 3 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 3514 times:

United served Delhi rom 1996 or so until 1999 as part of the round world service (UA 1/2). United did use a Heathrow slot on the LHR-DEL leg. UA planned to restart service to Delhi nonstop from Chicago on Oct 31, 2001 and in fact heavily advertised the service but 9/11 happened and the service was shelved.

User currently offlinePNQIAD From India, joined May 2006, 586 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (8 years 3 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 3470 times:

Quoting CHI787ORD (Reply 3):
However, now that DL has a nonstop, what about a routing such as ORD-DEL-BLR? I like the sound of that.

I think UA has already missed the bus on ORD-DEL considering AA is already established in that market and doubt if there will be enough yields on that route to support 2x daily non-stops. Also, 1-stop (that too within India) to BLR wouldn't be too attractive.

On the other hand, if UA could launch IAD-DEL or IAD-BOM or IAD-BLR (don't know if their T7 have that kind of range) - there would be hardly any competition and I would guess they could get some decent yields there too. 744 could make that but would be too big to justify a daily non-stop IMO.

If non-stop is not possible - an extension of IAD-KWI could be researched into if they have 5th freedom ex-KWI. Though West Asia -India sector is already crowded.


User currently offlineBehramjee From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 4784 posts, RR: 43
Reply 8, posted (8 years 3 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 3456 times:

UA should NOT fly from ORD...it should fly IAD-DEL thus serving a niche market from the IAD/BWI area...plus then via IAD connect onwards pax to US domestic and Canadian destinations.

User currently offlineJaysit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (8 years 3 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 3431 times:

Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 2):
I've been to Bombay, New Delhi and Bangalore within the last 10 years. All 3 struck me as desperately poor places.

Perhaps from your American perspective. But the presence of large shanty towns doesn't negate the fact that there are tens of millions of Indians with a standard of living equal to that in the West, most of whom live in Delhi, Bombay and Bangalore. These are the people who are filling up those 747s to India.

But getting back to the topic at hand, if Jet ever enter the US market with nonstops and are a part of Star, then UA could provide feed from such hubs as IAD, ORD or SFO. In any case, the passenger would be better served by a long Jet Airways flight than on United.

[Edited 2006-06-20 22:26:29]

User currently offlineJetdeltamsy From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 2987 posts, RR: 7
Reply 10, posted (8 years 3 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 3354 times:

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 9):
Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 2):
I've been to Bombay, New Delhi and Bangalore within the last 10 years. All 3 struck me as desperately poor places.

Perhaps from your American perspective. But the presence of large shanty towns doesn't negate the fact that there are tens of millions of Indians with a standard of living equal to that in the West, most of whom live in Delhi, Bombay and Bangalore. These are the people who are filling up those 747s to India.

But getting back to the topic at hand,

My remarks were completely on topic. As for my "American" perspective, i have travelled the planet for 25 years for my job. I think I am reasonably qualified to make such observations.

I, like many in the west and far east, are deeply moved when we see the poverty in India. I have been there. I have seen it. There is no equal, in terms of the sheer number of desperately poor people anywhere in the world.

That being said, my remarks that you did not address indicate that the economy is booming and wealth is beginning to happen there. That's great. I don't imagine any airline would intentionally establish new service on any route that was not economically viable. Clearly there is money to be made in the Indian market.



Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
User currently offlineUalcsr From United States of America, joined May 2006, 485 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (8 years 3 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 3302 times:

There was a "rumor" posted in another thread recently about possible NRT-BLR service.

Quoting Behramjee (Reply 8):
UA should NOT fly from ORD...it should fly IAD-DEL thus serving a niche market from the IAD/BWI area...plus then via IAD connect onwards pax to US domestic and Canadian destinations.

I agree. AA is already serving DEL from ORD while IAD-India service on a US carrier is virgin territory. I think UA's future international expansion will concentrate on IAD and it already seems that the airline has made a commitment to grow there, rather than in Chicago.


User currently offlineLondonlady71 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2006, 152 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (8 years 3 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 3296 times:

UA used to go to india and it was one service that ceased when they went bankrupt.

Jet airways will join star and I guess codeshares are maybe more likely.


User currently offlineUalcsr From United States of America, joined May 2006, 485 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (8 years 3 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 3278 times:

Quoting Londonlady71 (Reply 12):
UA used to go to india and it was one service that ceased when they went bankrupt

The bankruptcy filing was on December 9, 2002; I'm almost certain that UA shelved the proposed ORD-DEL, which was to begin in October 2001, because of 9/11, not bankruptcy.


User currently offlineUSPIT10L From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 3295 posts, RR: 7
Reply 14, posted (8 years 3 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 3168 times:

Quoting Kkfla737 (Reply 6):
United served Delhi rom 1996 or so until 1999 as part of the round world service (UA 1/2). United did use a Heathrow slot on the LHR-DEL leg. UA planned to restart service to Delhi nonstop from Chicago on Oct 31, 2001 and in fact heavily advertised the service but 9/11 happened and the service was shelved.

Actually, kkfla737, UA started service to India in 1995, and ran it until 1999. It was then restarted again in May of 2001, only to be shelved right after 9/11. You are correct about ORD-DEL, it was scheduled to start in October of 2001. Once UA gets back to profitability and orders new aircraft, we should see UA in India, but not until then.



It's a Great Day for Hockey!
User currently offlineBicoastal From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (8 years 3 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 3143 times:

United has no lift to fly to India without cutting a route somewhere else. I still haven't figured out which flights they are deleting/adjusting to add Kuwait City. United needs to buy more planes before expanding. Most of the routes they've added recently are Express routes. Tilton has said they aren't ordering planes until 2007 when United's debt to equity ratio improves.

User currently offlineNimish From India, joined Feb 2005, 3235 posts, RR: 9
Reply 16, posted (8 years 3 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 3113 times:

Quoting Londonlady71 (Reply 12):
Jet airways will join star and I guess codeshares are maybe more likely.

OT - but is there any substance behind this statement? Or is it a rumour (similar to the one that says AI is looking to join Star)?



Latest Trip Report - GoAir BLR-BOM-BLR
User currently offlineNimish From India, joined Feb 2005, 3235 posts, RR: 9
Reply 17, posted (8 years 3 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 3094 times:

As I said in the other thread (on DL's JFK-BOM):

Since DL/CO/AA have started US east coast/mid-west -> India flights, UA should look at a West Coast -> India flight (and use their hub at NRT).

There is good potential for West-coast to India services via Asia, plus UA has a great hub at NRT that they can leverage. While not a non-stop, it beats two stops from airlines like TG/SQ/MH etc. (I think only CX, CI, KE provide a one-stop experience).

UA's gain will certainly be a loss to *A partner SQ (who does massive amounts of US West coast - India traffic).



Latest Trip Report - GoAir BLR-BOM-BLR
User currently offlineBigGSFO From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2924 posts, RR: 6
Reply 18, posted (8 years 3 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 3054 times:

What's really missing is a West Coast (USA)-India flight and UA is the perfect choice for this. There are plenty of non-stop options east of the Mississippi, but nohing west. UA, IMO, could do very well with SFO-India.

User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16872 posts, RR: 51
Reply 19, posted (8 years 3 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 3033 times:

Im not sure if UAL's 777-200ERs or 747-400s have the range but to me if UAL wants in on India SFO is their best option.


Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineUnitedFirst From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 478 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (8 years 3 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 2940 times:

Quoting Bicoastal (Reply 15):
United has no lift to fly to India without cutting a route somewhere else. I still haven't figured out which flights they are deleting/adjusting to add Kuwait City.

I think what some people seem to be forgetting with regards to the new KWI service is that it's only 3x weekly. Such a flight would only demand 1 777 for the service at most. I would think that if UA can tighten up its 777 schedules, especially through a hub like IAD where 777s are coming and going regularly for trans-Atlantic flights, and often cycling back into the domestic system for flights to other hubs like ORD, scheduling another 777 flight shouldn't be that hard.

However, it is evident that if United wants to expand further, certain routes will have to go in favor of what could be more solid performers.

Derek


User currently offlineUAL777UK From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2005, 3356 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (8 years 3 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 2870 times:

When UA go back to India and not if, I suspect it will be from the West Coast (SFO), feeding through NRT but I would not Rule out a direct flight to BOM/BLR with a shuttle service to either. When they decide to do it is another thing as they dont have the metal and before we see India back we are likely to see CAN first being a destination UA has been seeking for a while now.

User currently offlineTL925 From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 68 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (8 years 3 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 2862 times:

Barring the A340-500 and B777-200LR, I don't think any aircraft can fly West Coast to India non-stop. I could be mistaken, but I think that one reason the likes of Kingfisher, Air India, etc have ordered these aircraft are for these purposes.

User currently offlineFLY777UAL From United States of America, joined May 1999, 4512 posts, RR: 3
Reply 23, posted (8 years 3 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 2842 times:

Here is a seim-interesting article discussing the Indian market's importance to United:

http://www.expresstravelworld.com/200606/market04.shtml

F L Y 7 7 7 U A L


User currently offlineNimish From India, joined Feb 2005, 3235 posts, RR: 9
Reply 24, posted (8 years 3 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 2816 times:

Quoting FLY777UAL (Reply 23):

From: http://www.expresstravelworld.com/200606/market04.shtml

"Air fares need to stabilise in the wake of massive capacity addition following the deregulation on the Indo-US route. These are simply unviable at current levels. Also, the duration to get a US visa is simply unacceptable. This is a matter of great concern."

I don't buy the second part at all. What has the duration to get a US visa got to do with United starting service to India? Sure - it takes 6 months to get a visa these days, but what that means is that companies are now planning 6 months in advance when possible, or sending alternate persons (who have a valid visa) instead. Besides, United will expect to cater more to the US originating traveller (given UA are strong in the US and can expect to get a lot of feed from the US), and these pax are unconcerned with delays at the US embassies in India.

The first part of the article (unviable at current levels) also does not make much sense - crappy service is unviable at any level (look at DL's decision to scrap the one stops on 767s via CDG). But United have a decent product (esp the Y+), and a great feed in the US, so they should be able to do well.

I would hope the only reason for UA's delay in starting India is the lack of the right equipment. Anything else does not really make sense.

Or maybe UA believes that either of AI/9W will join *A and UA can then use the open-skies via loads of code shares. That still seems a long way off.



Latest Trip Report - GoAir BLR-BOM-BLR
25 Post contains images Londonlady71 : sorry I wasnt talking about a direct from usa route I was talking about the one that started in heathrow....I believe that was stopped as a money cut
26 Post contains links HAWK21M : LINK regds MEL
27 Nimish : Cool! Good to know that *A and 9W are making some progress. Any indicative timelines? 9W will be a huge asset to *A.
28 L1011Lover : Doesn´t United already have a stronghold on India through Star Alliance and Lufthansa??? India is one huge LH market as they serve five destinations
29 Nimish : Because UA/LH flights between US & India are not sufficient to meet the demand and UA pax often cannot get tickets on this sector (much to the deligh
30 Aseem : not sure whether been asked before, does UA has fifth freedom flights ex-NRT. If so why not SFO-NRT-DEL/BLR? Not much competition here. rgds VT-ASJ
31 Post contains images Bicoastal : United needs those widebody domestic legs to move all of the cargo they fly into Dulles and Chicago from Europe. While some of it is trucked out, the
32 ChicagoFlyer : How much are YOU willing to pay for the flight? I heard on the grapevine that AA fills their planes ORD-DEL but cannot make money--it takes too much
33 UAL777UK : Thats business...If UA can see an oppertunity to offer a service which in my mind the West Coast is crying out for then they need to operate it......
34 Post contains images Stealthpilot : Apparently UA does have 5th freedom rights from NRT to any country that the US has bilateral with (thus including India). However, if I remember read
35 Post contains images Nimish : I (or rather my company) will pay what's needed for a non-stop with good onboard service. Besides - remember this service is not just about meeting t
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
NonRev Around The World-Connecting In Asia posted Fri Sep 22 2006 05:17:34 by DAirbus
CX Voted ‘Airline Of The Year’ In TTG Asia Travel posted Mon Oct 17 2005 05:40:52 by United Airline
Air India To Add 2 744s In The Next Two Months? posted Thu Aug 7 2003 18:59:44 by Na
The NWA A320's In Asia - Routes? posted Wed Dec 18 2002 10:17:08 by Alaskaairlines
Do You See The A330 As An Oddball In UA's Fleet.. posted Sun Sep 10 2000 03:38:27 by John
Which Is The Best Airlines In South East Asia?! posted Sat May 20 2000 08:28:06 by AviationMaster
Out With The Old And In With The New - AR + EZE posted Tue Dec 12 2006 15:32:54 by Treeny
Two AY MD11s At The Same Time In SIN Today posted Mon Dec 4 2006 10:45:07 by LordHowe
Will The A380 Certify In 2006? posted Fri Nov 10 2006 18:47:18 by OldAeroGuy
The End Of The Original 748 In Europe? posted Mon Oct 16 2006 23:24:14 by DHHornet