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EU, New Zealand Sign Aviation Agreement  
User currently offlineNoelg From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (8 years 2 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 3338 times:

Quoting ,reply=0:
The European Commission said it has signed an aviation agreement with New Zealand.

The accord allows European airlines to fly between New Zealand and any EU member state.

Full story at http://www.forbes.com/home/feeds/afx/2006/06/21/afx2829927.html

Could we be finally seeing BA in AKL....?  Smile

Noel

23 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlinePulkovokiwi From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (8 years 2 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 3338 times:

I hope so.Miss BA and still remember the first Comet 4 of BOAC arriving at Whenuapai in 1963.

User currently offlineKiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8565 posts, RR: 13
Reply 2, posted (8 years 2 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 3305 times:
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Quoting Noelg (Thread starter):
Could we be finally seeing BA in AKL....?

Sorry mate ,I doubt it - if they couldn't make MEL work for them then they are definitely not going to come back to AKL - the only way you will see them there in AKL is the same way you can see them at the moment - a codeshare on the arrival/departure board .



Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlineZkpilot From New Zealand, joined Mar 2006, 4830 posts, RR: 9
Reply 3, posted (8 years 2 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 3228 times:

Quoting Noelg (Thread starter):
Could we be finally seeing BA in AKL....?

BA used to fly to AKL but pulled out and handed it to their OneWorld partner QF. They could fly here anytime they liked this changed nothing so far as BA is concerned.
What it does open up is the possibility for the likes of LH, AF,etc but I doubt it... it is more a symbolic agreement than one that will actually be used much.
On the other hand NZ is still looking at an eventuall return to Europe insted of just LHR. FRA being the main candidate.



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User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9634 posts, RR: 52
Reply 4, posted (8 years 2 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 3191 times:

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 3):
On the other hand NZ is still looking at an eventuall return to Europe insted of just LHR. FRA being the main candidate.

I would guess that FRA is a definite possibility again. They used to fly the route, and it would work well now since both Air New Zealand and Lufthansa are in Star Alliance, so there would be plenty of connection opportunities all over Europe. BMI out of LHR only flies to a limited number of destinations.



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User currently offlineMr AirNZ From New Zealand, joined Feb 2002, 866 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (8 years 2 months 4 weeks ago) and read 3130 times:

This is more a political 'look how well we work together' thing than actual airlines having an interest in opening new routes. Things like this our quite common eg. New Zealand and British airlines already share full 8th Freedom rights between the two counties but I can't really see BA starting AKL to WLG anytime soon.

User currently offlineKiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8565 posts, RR: 13
Reply 6, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 3115 times:
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Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 4):
I would guess that FRA is a definite possibility again. They used to fly the route, and it would work well now since both Air New Zealand and Lufthansa are in Star Alliance, so there would be plenty of connection opportunities all over Europe. BMI out of LHR only flies to a limited number of destinations.

I have always thought FRA should come back because of the connection possibilities - but numerous NZ sources have indicated on this forum and elsewhere that the yield on the route was not good .

While it is true that BD only has limited connecting possibilities out of LHR they include major destinations such as CDG / AMS / BRU / EDI / GLA /MAN while other star partners cover LIS / ARN / CPH / OSL / VIE / WAW / ZRH / MUC / FRA / HAM / DUS and no doubt others which I have forgotten - the main problem with connecting at LHR remains the inter-terminal nightmare which should go away in a couple of years with the mass shift of Star to T1



Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlineZK-NBT From New Zealand, joined Oct 2000, 5331 posts, RR: 11
Reply 7, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 3112 times:

Quoting Mr AirNZ (Reply 5):
Things like this our quite common eg. New Zealand and British airlines already share full 8th Freedom rights between the two counties but I can't really see BA starting AKL to WLG anytime soon.

Wow, AKL-WLG on BA, hehe. I Think you meant LHR.

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 3):
FRA being the main candidate.

Not according to another A.net member. I thought MAN was on the wish list even though thats in the UK still.

I don't think there are to many airlines from Europe that would consider AKL, maybe VS would but thats about it IMO.


User currently offlineANother From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 3083 times:

Don't get too excited. This 'agreement' does only one thing. It amends the agreements already in effect between EU Members and N.Z by inserting the Community air carrier provision. See: http://europa.eu/rapid/pressReleases...&aged=0&language=EN&guiLanguage=en

But notice this "and therefore allows any EU airline to operate flights between any EU Member State where it is established and New Zealand."

They don't explain what 'where it is established' means (because that takes all the wind out of their sails). What it means is that Lufthasa cannot operate UK - NZ flights, because it is not established in the UK, but they could set-up a subsidiary (subject to UK oversight) in the UK to do so. Now how likely is this?

Bottom line is that EU Member States have not yet given the EC the authority to negotiate with third countries (other than this clause) except the US. They want to see if they are any good at it before giving them this mandate. Seeing how well the EU-US talks are going it could be a very long time ...


User currently offlinePlanemanofnz From New Zealand, joined Sep 2005, 1676 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 3075 times:
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Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 2):
if they couldn't make MEL work for them then they are definitely not going to come back to AKL

Why do you say that? The markets are completely different. MEL has much more flights to LHR than AKL does and many more airlines. At the moment only NZ offer a same plane service from NZ to Europe.

On that note, I could see Austrian possibly coming to AKL through KUL, but not untill probably next year. BA would be great aswell or even VS. It would be good to route maybe AKL-YVR/PEK/KUL-LHR.


User currently offlineNZ1 From New Zealand, joined May 2004, 2265 posts, RR: 25
Reply 10, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 3038 times:
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Quoting ZK-NBT (Reply 7):
Not according to another A.net member. I thought MAN was on the wish list even though thats in the UK still.

I have said in the past that MAN was an option, and it still is. However, Frankfurt and Munich are on the wish list. You will see the Kory flying again to Germany within 5 years.

NZ1


User currently offlineANother From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 3014 times:

Quoting Mr AirNZ (Reply 5):
New Zealand and British airlines already share full 8th Freedom rights between the two counties



Quoting Mr AirNZ (Reply 5):
New Zealand and British airlines already share full 8th Freedom rights between the two counties but I can't really see BA starting AKL to WLG anytime soon.

8th freedoms? I know that NZ and OZ have exchanged 8ths, but I would be very surprised if the UK and NZ have.


User currently offlineZKSUJ From New Zealand, joined May 2004, 7106 posts, RR: 11
Reply 12, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 2958 times:

Any other European Destinations on the wishlist for NZ metal? Like ZRH, FCO, AMS or CDG???

Also, there was talk some time ago about an order for long halu a/c. Can we expect this soonish???

SUJ


User currently offlineStarGoldLHR From Heard and McDonald Islands, joined Feb 2004, 1529 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 2892 times:

Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 6):
While it is true that BD only has limited connecting possibilities out of LHR they include major destinations such as CDG / AMS / BRU / EDI / GLA /MAN while other star partners cover LIS / ARN / CPH / OSL / VIE / WAW / ZRH / MUC / FRA / HAM / DUS and no doubt others which I have forgotten - the main problem with connecting at LHR remains the inter-terminal nightmare which should go away in a couple of years with the mass shift of Star to T1

So Does LH to all from FRA, which makes it faster, cheaper, easier and simpler !



So far in 2008 45 flights and Gold already. JFK, IAD, LGA, SIN, HKG, NRT, AKL, PPT, LAX still to book ! Home Airport LCY
User currently offlineCornish From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 8187 posts, RR: 54
Reply 14, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 2883 times:

Quoting StarGoldLHR (Reply 13):
So Does LH to all from FRA, which makes it faster, cheaper, easier and simpler !

Yes but LHR offers a far larger amount of O&D traffic to NZ which makes it a much more attractive option, regardless of ease of connection, making it a much safer option.

But yes if NZ is going to offer new destinationsin Europe then I see FRA being the first.



Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
User currently offlineANother From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 2770 times:

Quoting Cornish (Reply 14):
But yes if NZ is going to offer new destinationsin Europe then I see FRA being the first.

Agree this is logical, but note the EC press release I linked to above.

This agreement doesn't give New Zealand any additional rights - it is only about the Community air carrier clause and the EC trying to look like they are actually doing something productive (which they are not).

I would be surprised if NZ has an ASA with most of the 25 EU Member States, and this doesn't change that.


User currently offlineZK-NBT From New Zealand, joined Oct 2000, 5331 posts, RR: 11
Reply 16, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 2663 times:

Quoting NZ1 (Reply 10):
I have said in the past that MAN was an option, and it still is. However, Frankfurt and Munich are on the wish list. You will see the Kory flying again to Germany within 5 years.

Well that is really good to know!!

Quoting Planemanofnz (Reply 9):
On that note, I could see Austrian possibly coming to AKL through KUL, but not untill probably next year. BA would be great aswell or even VS. It would be good to route maybe AKL-YVR/PEK/KUL-LHR.

Austrian would never get enough NZ traffic I wouldn't think, however I guess we should never say never, but its alot of aircraft and crew tied up. I think VS is AKL's best chance. BA dropped MEL more due to an aircraft shortage rather than not being profitable, they simply decided they could operate the aircraft more profitably elsewhere.


User currently offlineCornish From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 8187 posts, RR: 54
Reply 17, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 2634 times:

Quoting ZK-NBT (Reply 16):
Austrian would never get enough NZ traffic I wouldn't think,

Actually i'm not so sure about that. Austrian, or rather Lauda in the past, has long been viewed as a budget traveller's choice to South East Asia and Oz. Frequently from the UK their fares to that part of the world are VERY competitive. They've always focused on that market rather than the business end on those routes.

Given the increased tourism to New Zealand (particularly from the UK), and the large numbers of young Kiwis coming to Europe - it may not be such a bad choice for them.



Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
User currently offlineMr AirNZ From New Zealand, joined Feb 2002, 866 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 2555 times:

Quoting ANother (Reply 11):
8th freedoms? I know that NZ and OZ have exchanged 8ths, but I would be very surprised if the UK and NZ have.

Yep according to these two link they have:
http://www.beehive.govt.nz/ViewDocument.aspx?DocumentID=23786
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedoms_of_the_air


User currently offlinePlanemanofnz From New Zealand, joined Sep 2005, 1676 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 2515 times:
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What is the chance that a european carrier would fly scheduled to AKL in the next 2 years?

User currently offlineKiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8565 posts, RR: 13
Reply 20, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 2511 times:
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Quoting Planemanofnz (Reply 19):
What is the chance that a european carrier would fly scheduled to AKL in the next 2 years?

7 years in the industry taught me to never say 'never' ... but I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for it to happen - it is a long , thin route with relatively low yield potential and many carriers out there are looking to use what capacity they have on routes where they can get good returns . Apart from VS ( which though unlikely IMHO I would still rate as a higher probability than virtually anyone else ) the other names most frequently suggested ( BA , LH , OS , KL ) all have existing codeshare arrangements which permit them prescence in the market without the high overheads of actually operating to New Zealand . The only other possibility I could see would be a return to seasonal UK-NZ charter flights similar to those operated a few years ago by BY



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User currently offlineANother From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 2451 times:

Quoting Mr AirNZ (Reply 18):
Yep according to these two link they have:
http://www.beehive.govt.nz/ViewDocument.aspx?DocumentID=23786
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom...e_air

3rd/4th/5th rights are being exchanged - but I don't see 8th freedom rights being exchanged. According to your Wiki link 8ths are:

The right to carry passengers or cargo within a foreign country with continuing service to or from one's own country.

i.e. BA flying CHC - AKL - xxx - LHR with the right to carry local traffic CHC - AKL or NZ flying AKL - xxx- LHR - MAN with full traffic rights LHR MAN. That isn't what the press release says.


User currently offlineMr AirNZ From New Zealand, joined Feb 2002, 866 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 2332 times:

If you read further down on Wikipedia under Eight Freedom rights it gives the agreement between the UK and NZ as an example. Unlimited Cabotage.

User currently offlineZK-NBT From New Zealand, joined Oct 2000, 5331 posts, RR: 11
Reply 23, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 2332 times:

I agree there Kiwiandrew.

VS have another batch of 346's to be delivered but even then I would think another Australian destination would be more likely than AKL first atleast.

BA, VS and OS are the only European carriers flying to Australia now, KL, AF, AOM and LH all pulled out years ago, KL, AF and LH all maintain codeshares though. I know its not the same though, as a spotter i'd love to see more airlines in AKL, particularly from the US and Europe! Sadly its no longer that high on the priority list or in some cases its no longer practical.

AKL and to a lessor extent CHC are linked to CHC are well linked to Europe 1 stop flights with the likes of SQ, CX, MH, TG etc.


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