HB-IWC From Greece, joined Sep 2000, 4418 posts, RR: 75 Posted (6 years 12 months 4 days ago) and read 5006 times:
As Delta this week announced plans for a daily nonstop B772ER JFK-BOM service, it also quietly announced its withdrawal from the CDG-BOM and CDG-MAA routes. Both routes had previously been operating daily, but have been reduced during the summer months. Effective the winter time table, MAA will completely disappear from Delta's route map.
To compensate for the loss of the CDG-MAA route, Air France is now planning to operate its own service on the route. Flights will start at the onset of the winter schedule and operate thrice weekly according to the following schedule:
AF158 CDG MAA 1020 0025+1 Mo/Th/Sa
AF157 MAA CDG 0210 0835 Tu/Fr/Su
Flights will operate with the airline's A343, which is configured in a 2-class arrangement, featuring the new business class. Also during the winter schedule, Air France will reinforce its Bangalore operations to daily from 5 weekly. Flights are operated with the A332.
DeltaDAWG From United States of America, joined May 2006, 621 posts, RR: 1 Reply 1, posted (6 years 12 months 4 days ago) and read 4966 times:
This is not totally a surprise. DL made this move in order to compete and jump on a direct JFK/EWR-BOM in regards to UA and CO's EWR/JFK-DEL service. Actually, the BOM service I bet will probably work out to be a better revenue and capacity winner as the majority of business it seems comes from the BOM area.
AF is no dummy and I am sure it will work out well as they are sure to have seen the numbers from the DL flights. Also, I bet in the end DL will still have a code share on this flight so they could still feed this route from JFK, ATL & CVG flights.
In all it is a good move for both AF & DL I believe. I would love to see DL get a hold of a couple more 777's and have continuing service from BOM to SYD/HKG and then to LAX. Around the world - DL style - that would be fantastic.
Cricket From India, joined Aug 2005, 2943 posts, RR: 7 Reply 2, posted (6 years 12 months 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 4868 times:
Quoting DeltaDAWG (Reply 1): This is not totally a surprise. DL made this move in order to compete and jump on a direct JFK/EWR-BOM in regards to UA and CO's EWR/JFK-DEL service. Actually, the BOM service I bet will probably work out to be a better revenue and capacity winner as the majority of business it seems comes from the BOM area.
JFK-BOM would be stretching the 772ER's range capabilities - plus given seasonal winds I edon't know if they can pull it off without payload penalties all year around or in both directions. Anyway, at the risk of irritating certain people - BOM and DEL are the prime markets in India and both generate enough business to justify non-stops in their own right, but because both CO and AA serve DEL I guess DL went to BOM.
As for AF starting flights to MAA, I know a certain member who will be whooping with joy and will then proceed to bash AI for not doing the same. Is AF upgrading DEL to a 773?
B4real From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 2595 posts, RR: 6 Reply 3, posted (6 years 12 months 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 4843 times:
Quoting DeltaDAWG (Reply 1): DL get a hold of a couple more 777's and have continuing service from BOM to SYD/HKG and then to LAX. Around the world - DL style - that would be fantastic.
Sir, this is the police: STEP AWAY FROM THE CRACKPIPE!
HB-IWC From Greece, joined Sep 2000, 4418 posts, RR: 75 Reply 4, posted (6 years 12 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 4735 times:
Quoting Cricket (Reply 2): Is AF upgrading DEL to a 773?
Air France will once again operate the B744 on the CDG-DEL route for the winter, while CDG-BOM will be upgraded to the B77W, and F-class will once again be available for sale on the BOM route.
MAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 31156 posts, RR: 76 Reply 5, posted (6 years 12 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 4713 times:
Quoting DeltaDAWG (Reply 1): Actually, the BOM service I bet will probably work out to be a better revenue and capacity winner as the majority of business it seems comes from the BOM area.
Probably not. There is a reason CO and AA went to Delhi first, even though Bombay has stronger business traffic: range. JFK-BOM is really stretching the 777s range, and while the plane can make it, it is not going to be without taking on restrictions, including forfeiting lucrative cargo space. The right plane for flying JFK-BOM isn't a 777. CO and AA know that, and, unfortunately, DL is left without a choice but to enter BOM, since DEL is already being well served.
In fact, CO 82/83 was originally supposed to be a non-stop EWR-BOM flight, until route planning realized that it was smarter to go to DEL because the lower-yields were more than made up there would be less range issues.
AirMailer From United States of America, joined May 2006, 413 posts, RR: 0 Reply 6, posted (6 years 12 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 4686 times:
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 5): Actually, the BOM service I bet will probably work out to be a better revenue and capacity winner as the majority of business it seems comes from the BOM area.
Probably not. There is a reason CO and AA went to Delhi first
I disagree with your disagreement.
I think that DL has a good idea how many passengers connected last year on code shares from CDG to BOM.
I'm not saying that other service to Delhi wasn't a factor, but I think that historical traffic patterns MIGHT have been more of a factor.
... but what do I know. I don't run an airline or anything, so it's just an educated guess considering all of the factors.
I think that DL has a good idea how many passengers connected last year on code shares from CDG to BOM.
I'm not saying that other service to Delhi wasn't a factor, but I think that historical traffic patterns MIGHT have been more of a factor.
... but what do I know. I don't run an airline or anything, so it's just an educated guess considering all of the factors.
I agree that Mumbai is the better market. It is. Greater O&D, higher yields. The fact remains that it is operataionally challenging to fly non-stop between the US and Bombay, much more so than to Delhi. That is why CO, AA, and AC went to Delhi, less operations risk. Delta is taking a greater operations risk by flying non-stop to Mumbai. Will it pay off? We'll see, it has potential, but the 772ER is not the best airplane for this route.
Jr From United States of America, joined May 1999, 961 posts, RR: 7 Reply 8, posted (6 years 12 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 4533 times:
Nice to see another non-stop to India. I will miss the MAA flight on DL. I have already flown it a couple of times, and will be on it again next week. Hope AF succeeds on the route and eventually increases frequency.
Vivekman2006 From India, joined May 2006, 517 posts, RR: 3 Reply 10, posted (6 years 12 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 4372 times:
Does BLR airport have the capacity to support AF daily flights, AFAIK, BLR is totally saturated with no new flights allowed. Or are there vacant slots available to the highest bidder??
Nimish From India, joined Feb 2005, 3086 posts, RR: 9 Reply 11, posted (6 years 12 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 4354 times:
Quoting Vivekman2006 (Reply 10): Does BLR airport have the capacity to support AF daily flights, AFAIK, BLR is totally saturated with no new flights allowed. Or are there vacant slots available to the highest bidder
No idea about the "possibilities" for new slots, but I'm guessing the HAL authorities (who run the airport) may have already approved requests for some new services (like EK's to start in October, and LH bringing a 346), and used that information to decide enough is enough. Hence it may be that AF had already applied to HAL for a daily slot and that was approved before HAL's "freeze" to additional services.
DeltaDAWG From United States of America, joined May 2006, 621 posts, RR: 1 Reply 12, posted (6 years 12 months 3 days ago) and read 4270 times:
Quoting: B4real
Quote: Sir, this is the police: STEP AWAY FROM THE CRACKPIPE!
Just a thought and wish - would be fun!
Quoting: Cricket
Quote: Anyway, at the risk of irritating certain people - BOM and DEL are the prime markets in India and both generate enough business to justify non-stops in their own right, but because both CO and AA serve DEL I guess DL went to BOM.
What you have to remember is that DL is already flying into BOM. DL already has a presence, infrastructure and thus would not incurr any new liabilities for starting up a new service point. They already see the numbers on the CDG flights and know how many people deplane in CDG and how many continue on to the US. They did not choose BOM over DEL due to to AA & CO going into that market they just made the route a direct route. Remember, they could still codeshare with AF for the MAA and move passengers via CDG with flights from JFK, ATL & CVG. It is a smart move in my opinion.
Now, while I believe the range for their 777's is a stretch for this route as well they must know something we don't? According to DL's website they list the range of thier 777's as 8150 miles, the great circle mapper lists JFK-BOM as 7799 miles. Hey, that an easy 151 miles to spare!!
In all I believe they are making some good moves on their international routes - the only one I really wonder about is the recent Accra?
We shall see
There is no crackpipe - just one too many Beamish!!!
Cricket From India, joined Aug 2005, 2943 posts, RR: 7 Reply 13, posted (6 years 12 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 4194 times:
Quoting DeltaDAWG (Reply 12): Now, while I believe the range for their 777's is a stretch for this route as well they must know something we don't? According to DL's website they list the range of thier 777's as 8150 miles, the great circle mapper lists JFK-BOM as 7799 miles. Hey, that an easy 151 miles to spare!! crossfingers
That sir, is a margin under 2 per cent and as we all know, routes never follow the ideal lines plotted by the great circle mapper. Especially in India, the US and Russia they don't and these are three countries that plane has to pass over. Plus, what about a seaon like right now - the monsoons - extreme headwinds even DEL-BOM increases by 10-15 minutes basic flying time right now thanks to the monsoons.
I doubt that DL can do this route without a payload penalty. I don't however doubt the viability of the route and anyway a 777 is a lot better than a 767.
LAXDESI From United States of America, joined May 2005, 5085 posts, RR: 48 Reply 14, posted (6 years 12 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 4181 times:
Too bad the AF CDG-MAA flight does not connect well with AF LAX-CDG flight. They need to adjust the flight timings by about 3-4 hours to make LAX-MAA a possibility. They do have 2 flights from LAX to CDG.
MAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 31156 posts, RR: 76 Reply 15, posted (6 years 12 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 4090 times:
Quoting DeltaDAWG (Reply 12): In all I believe they are making some good moves on their international routes - the only one I really wonder about is the recent Accra?
I disagree with the "smart moves". I really can't imagine the Delta route planning departure being anything more like this right now:
(guys sitting in a room with darts and a map)
Guy 1: We have a free plane. ATL or JFK?
Guy 2: We'll start it at JFK. Through the dart....where did it land?
Guy 1: Dnipropetrovs'k?
Guy 2: We'll just serve Kiev. Darts don't lie.
Guy 1: How about JFK-MAN too?
Guy 2: Sure, why not. And, yeah, I live in Atlanta and am taking a trip to Southern France this summer, so...
Guy 1: ATL-NCE. Done.
Howver, I give Delta strong kudoos for Accra. This is one of the routes that will, without a doubt, be a hit. Ghana is one of the most stable and wealthiest countries in Africa. There is a very significant Ghanases community living up and down the East Coast, from Miami to NYC, especially in the Washington/Baltimore area, and there is a sizeable one in Atlanta too. The Gahanaesse community in the US is wealthy and travels back to Ghana very happen. Accra is one the routes that will stick it out for the long run. Can't say that for about half the new routes.
Panamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4595 posts, RR: 25 Reply 18, posted (6 years 12 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 3948 times:
Quoting LAXDESI (Reply 14): Too bad the AF CDG-MAA flight does not connect well with AF LAX-CDG flight. They need to adjust the flight timings by about 3-4 hours to make LAX-MAA a possibility.
It's not just MAA; none of AF's CDG-India flights connect well with flights from California. All of them leave CDG around mid-morning and the earliest arrival from LAX or SFO is after the departures to India. The only way to remedy that is to shift the BOM/DEL/BLR/MAA departures to the 1pm bank from CDG; there is no way that AF can have an LAX-CDG flight arrive earlier than it does today because to do that, the CDG-LAX flight would have to leave CDG early in the morning say around 8:30-9:00am in order to return to CDG the next day in the 8am timeframe. However, an early morning departure to the U.S. effectively shuts out many connections from throughout Europe.
HB-IWC From Greece, joined Sep 2000, 4418 posts, RR: 75 Reply 19, posted (6 years 12 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 3859 times:
I would expect Air France to reinforce the frequency of this new flight. If the results are anything like those of the BLR operation, we can expect a daily CDG MAA flight in the not too distant future.
With the opening of this new flight, AF/KL are boasting quite an operation between Europe and India:
DEL - twice daily - AF (B744) KL (B772)
BOM - twice daily - AF (B77W) KL (A332/NW codeshare)
BLR - daily - AF (A332)
HYD - 4 weekly - KL (MD11)
MAA - 3 weekly - AF (A343)
That makes a grand total of 42 weekly frequencies.
OA412 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 4998 posts, RR: 25 Reply 20, posted (6 years 12 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 3772 times:
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 15): I disagree with the "smart moves". I really can't imagine the Delta route planning departure being anything more like this right now:
(guys sitting in a room with darts and a map)
Guy 1: We have a free plane. ATL or JFK?
Guy 2: We'll start it at JFK. Through the dart....where did it land?
Guy 1: Dnipropetrovs'k?
Guy 2: We'll just serve Kiev. Darts don't lie.
Guy 1: How about JFK-MAN too?
Guy 2: Sure, why not. And, yeah, I live in Atlanta and am taking a trip to Southern France this summer, so...
Guy 1: ATL-NCE. Done.
Yeah, that's exactly what's happening at DL right now! Tell me, since you are so very clearly more qualified at figuring out which international destinations DL should and should not serve, why are you not in route planning at DL (or another airline for that matter) rather than just posting your opinions on an online forum?
HB-IWC From Greece, joined Sep 2000, 4418 posts, RR: 75 Reply 22, posted (6 years 12 months 1 hour ago) and read 3576 times:
Quoting Nimish (Reply 21): Is there any information on how AF's BLR services are doing (besides the circumstantial evidence based on the fact that they're making it a daily)?
I've seen numbers indicating the route is performing well. Load factors in the front cabin has been in the upper 80s for the past winter season.
Nimish From India, joined Feb 2005, 3086 posts, RR: 9 Reply 23, posted (6 years 12 months 1 hour ago) and read 3573 times:
Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 22): I've seen numbers indicating the route is performing well. Load factors in the front cabin has been in the upper 80s for the past winter season.
Wonderful to hear that the new route is working out well for AF! It can't be too much of O&D (or is it?), so is there any indication on where the traffic is from (it can't be the US west coast either due to the lack of connections)?
I agree with you DAWG, JFK-BOM n/s will be a good move. And I was initially concerned about the 777 usage, but I've just reserved to think that DL generally won't have 777's in Europe - and with that, JFK-BOM makes perfect sense on the 777. Now, as far as the 151 extra miles of range, we'll see.
I think it is somewhat obvious that CDG-MAA was a flop, but DL is doing the right thing in moving to the opportunity spots.
Quoting Jr (Reply 16): Now if only AF would start a DFW flight again....
Don't hold your breath. We've seen international carriers pull OUT of DFW with the new facility (AM/MX).
Sponsor Message: 
From Greece, joined Sep 2000, 4418 posts, 
From United States of America, joined May 2006, 621 posts, 
From India, joined Aug 2005, 2943 posts, 
From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 31156 posts, 
Printer friendly format 
