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BA, VS Dirty Tricks - Is This Virgins Revenge?  
User currently offlineTheflyboy From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 11 posts, RR: 0
Posted (8 years 3 months 21 hours ago) and read 5971 times:

Wow - Just read this story. Looks like Virgin have finally got their revenge for the BA Dirty Tricks campaign. Sure they were just following the law - but this could have big implications for BA. Looks like the rivalry will intensify now.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/5109014.stm

55 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineFWAERJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 3753 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (8 years 3 months 20 hours ago) and read 5954 times:

Ouch... BA could really be hurt by this one.


"Did he really need the triple bypass? Or was it the miles?"
User currently offlineRobTrent From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2005, 260 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (8 years 3 months 20 hours ago) and read 5908 times:

Quoting Theflyboy (Thread starter):
Looks like Virgin have finally got their revenge for the BA Dirty Tricks campaign

What goes around etc. It amazes me however, given the history between the two carriers that BA even spoke to Virgin.

This could cost BA and any others found guilty Big Tiime. BA's shares lost 6% yesterday and this is only the beggining of what I suspect will be a long drawn out investigaion.

I will be watching with interest
Regards
R



T7 - You know it makes sense !
User currently offlineLeezyjet From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 4042 posts, RR: 53
Reply 3, posted (8 years 3 months 20 hours ago) and read 5845 times:

Another BBC report here.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/5104946.stm

Quoting RobTrent (Reply 2):
BA's shares lost 6% yesterday and this is only the beggining of what I suspect will be a long drawn out investigaion.

I knew I should have sold mine last week !!!.

 Smile



"She Rolls, 45 knots, 90, 135, nose comes up to 20 degrees, she's airborne - She flies, Concorde Flies"
User currently offlineBA787 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2006, 2596 posts, RR: 7
Reply 4, posted (8 years 3 months 20 hours ago) and read 5787 times:

VS should know that revenge isn't sweet. I read on A.net yesterday that BA could face a 10% of all ticket sales fine which could be catastrophic. Its gone far enough now, it needs dealing with before one of them takes it too far!

Tom


User currently offlineSingapore_Air From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2000, 13742 posts, RR: 19
Reply 5, posted (8 years 3 months 20 hours ago) and read 5777 times:

I hope so, hoorah for Virgin Atlantic! I am sure they welcomed the OFT the other day with open arms into their office.

Virgin Atlantic is 49% owned by Singapore Airlines Limited



Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
User currently offlineLeezyjet From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 4042 posts, RR: 53
Reply 6, posted (8 years 3 months 20 hours ago) and read 5749 times:

Quoting BA787 (Reply 4):
VS should know that revenge isn't sweet

It is hardly revenge, If VS had gone along with BA, then they too would be breaking the law, and VS were just doing the right thing by bringing this to the OFT's attention.

 Smile



"She Rolls, 45 knots, 90, 135, nose comes up to 20 degrees, she's airborne - She flies, Concorde Flies"
User currently offlineArt From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 3382 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (8 years 3 months 12 hours ago) and read 5426 times:

Quoting Leezyjet (Reply 6):
It is hardly revenge, If VS had gone along with BA, then they too would be breaking the law, and VS were just doing the right thing by bringing this to the OFT's attention.

I don't know the ins and outs of this law but I suppose it's possible that Virgin would have committed an offence if they had not reported BA.


User currently offlineRichard28 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2003, 1619 posts, RR: 6
Reply 8, posted (8 years 3 months 10 hours ago) and read 5369 times:

Quoting Art (Reply 7):
I don't know the ins and outs of this law but I suppose it's possible that Virgin would have committed an offence if they had not reported BA.

indeedy. Had VS not reported it, and someone else had, then the Office of Fair Trading and the US Department of Justice could have interpreted that VS was trying to cover up.

VS had no choice it would seem, other thatn to flag the issue to the authorities.


User currently offlineTEAtheB From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 81 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (8 years 3 months 3 hours ago) and read 5219 times:

I wonder in what circumstances a "BA executive told a Virgin counterpart of plans to increase BA's fuel surcharge" (if indeed it happened). Over a pint in the pub?

User currently offlineManni From South Korea, joined Nov 2001, 4221 posts, RR: 22
Reply 10, posted (8 years 3 months 3 hours ago) and read 5188 times:

Quoting RobTrent (Reply 2):

This could cost BA and any others found guilty Big Tiime. BA's shares lost 6% yesterday and this is only the beggining of what I suspect will be a long drawn out investigaion.

According to a dutch newssite, that specialises in aviation news, the fine could be as high as 1.2 billion Euro's, that's roughly 1.5 billion US$, if found guilty.


http://www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl/news/?id=14473



SUPPORT THE LEBANESE CIVILIANS
User currently offlineTrekster From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (8 years 3 months 3 hours ago) and read 5172 times:

VS Changed there fuel surcharge just after BA as well. So lets see.

I am just about to finish reading about the Dirty Tricks campaign from the 80's and 90's and am shocked what the airlines did back then. I hope its not been going on again. We shall see what tthe investigation comes up with.


User currently offlineCarduelis From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2001, 1586 posts, RR: 10
Reply 12, posted (8 years 3 months 3 hours ago) and read 5131 times:

Quoting Trekster (Reply 11):
I am just about to finish reading about the Dirty Tricks campaign

Without labouring the argument any more - try a search here for Dirty Tricks and read the widely varying many contributions on the subject, and then decide whether or not you want to believe what you have read.



Per Ardua ad Astra! ........ Honi Soit Qui Mal y Pense!
User currently offlineVC10 From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2001, 1411 posts, RR: 15
Reply 13, posted (8 years 3 months 2 hours ago) and read 5101 times:

What I do not understand about this is how just one airline can be guilty of price fixing, surely it takes more than one to price fix.

This could just be a start of another hate campaign against BA who might be found to be innocent, but you know what they say " If you throw enough S*** at the wall some of it will stick"

littlevc10


User currently offlineArt From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 3382 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (8 years 3 months 2 hours ago) and read 5054 times:

Quoting VC10 (Reply 13):
What I do not understand about this is how just one airline can be guilty of price fixing, surely it takes more than one to price fix.

It would be a question of conspiring to price fix, I think.

I don't quite understand why BA could not change its surcharge, see if the competition raised their surcharge to a similar level and ...if they did not, adjust the surcharge downwards again. The public is aware that fuel costs more and that fuel surcharges reflect this. And also that fuel surcharges are subject to change.

[Edited 2006-06-24 12:27:04]

User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13208 posts, RR: 77
Reply 15, posted (8 years 3 months 2 hours ago) and read 5052 times:

How can BA alone operate a price fixing cartel? Expect in the minds of those who actually believe every word that comes from Branson's mouth?

User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8278 posts, RR: 8
Reply 16, posted (8 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 4883 times:

I tend to thing this is over rated. BA might get hit with a small fine, which would probably be cheaper than paying lawyers, but there is little wisdom in a billion plus fine for a discussion on fuel prices and related fuel charges. Especially when it is in the UK's interests that BA have the funds to take care of their pension program problems.

On the other side of the coin, Virgin should understand that they benefit from the lack of dirty tricks in today's environment and it isn't really wise to start that game again. There is going to be something at some point in the future that will cause them to regret moving BA into this mess.

The only people that will really benefit will be the investigators who need something to investigate in order to justify their jobs.


User currently offline74472 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2006, 117 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (8 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 4862 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 16):
I tend to thing this is over rated. BA might get hit with a small fine, which would probably be cheaper than paying lawyers, but there is little wisdom in a billion plus fine for a discussion on fuel prices and related fuel charges. Especially when it is in the UK's interests that BA have the funds to take care of their pension program problems.

On the other side of the coin, Virgin should understand that they benefit from the lack of dirty tricks in today's environment and it isn't really wise to start that game again. There is going to be something at some point in the future that will cause them to regret moving BA into this mess.

The only people that will really benefit will be the investigators who need something to investigate in order to justify their jobs.

BRAVO !


User currently offlineMonkeyboi From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2004, 457 posts, RR: 3
Reply 18, posted (8 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 4856 times:

Virgin would be shooting itself in the foot by exposing any 'cartel' as part of a dirty tricks campaign.

If BA is found guilty, it will certainly speed up the abolition of Bermuda II (which is being described in the press as yet 'another' airline cartel)which is in neither BA's nor Virgins interest.


User currently offlineWrighbrothers From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2005, 1875 posts, RR: 9
Reply 19, posted (8 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 4823 times:

I for one hope that, if found guilty, the 2 executives will be sacked, they know you are not allowed to talk to competetors, they shouldn't be talking to VS full stop, not even about the weather.

Quoting Monkeyboi (Reply 18):
Virgin would be shooting itself in the foot by exposing any 'cartel' as part of a dirty tricks campaign.

I see how VS is portrayed as the good guy in this drama. Even if they were uncovered, I'd be guessing BA will be the bigger focus.

This saga is (if found to be true) cost the airlines millions, could this lead to BA declaring itself bankrupt ?, They could clear the pension problem out the window if they do.

Quoting TEAtheB (Reply 9):
wonder in what circumstances a "BA executive told a Virgin counterpart of plans to increase BA's fuel surcharge" (if indeed it happened). Over a pint in the pub?

I personally think this talk happened at conferences, BA can't stop VS from coming to big conferences where big airlines meet up, usually they are meant to ignore anyone from VS, but this time, it may not have been so.

Wrighbrothers



Always stand up for what is right, even if it means standing alone..
User currently offlineDavid L From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 9524 posts, RR: 41
Reply 20, posted (8 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 4809 times:

Quoting VC10 (Reply 13):
What I do not understand about this is how just one airline can be guilty of price fixing, surely it takes more than one to price fix.

I think the allegation at this point is just that BA let some other airlines know of their intention to increase the surcharge. As I understand it, no-one is accused of agreeing to it... yet.


User currently offlineLeezyjet From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 4042 posts, RR: 53
Reply 21, posted (8 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 4784 times:

Quoting David L (Reply 20):
I think the allegation at this point is just that BA let some other airlines know of their intention to increase the surcharge.

Which is precisely what they are NOT allowed to do hence the trouble they are in.

 Smile



"She Rolls, 45 knots, 90, 135, nose comes up to 20 degrees, she's airborne - She flies, Concorde Flies"
User currently offlineMainMAN From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2005, 2097 posts, RR: 5
Reply 22, posted (8 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 4774 times:

Quoting Art (Reply 7):
I don't know the ins and outs of this law but I suppose it's possible that Virgin would have committed an offence if they had not reported BA.

Virgin are taking advantage of OFT regulations which give immunity against prosecution to whistle-blowers, under the Enterprise Act 2002.

It's pay back time!

Quoting VC10 (Reply 13):
What I do not understand about this is how just one airline can be guilty of price fixing, surely it takes more than one to price fix.

Allegedly, all four LHR - US airlines are implicated.


User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 23, posted (8 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 4766 times:

Quoting VC10 (Reply 13):
What I do not understand about this is how just one airline can be guilty of price fixing, surely it takes more than one to price fix.

What with that and the points raised by Art and GDB and this quote given by the BBC from Ryanair:

"British Airways' reaction to rising oil prices has always been to penalise passengers by increasing their fuel surcharges at an even faster rate, so, since May 2004 the price of oil has doubled from 35 to 70 dollars a barrel and British Airways has increased its fuel surcharge 14-fold.

you have to wonder what this is all about. A surcharge is hardly likely to be linear with the price of oil. I dare say the rise is infinite from some oil price that was the base when surcharges started. Still and all, BA will be able to write a text on how to run a single company cartel.

And you would think they would not be daft enough to be up for conspiracy, unless they are judged to be schizoid and were conspiring with themselves.


User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13208 posts, RR: 77
Reply 24, posted (8 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 4686 times:

MainMAN, how on earth could it be 'pay back time' if all four LHR-US airlines could be implicated?
Because the last time I looked, VS were one of them.

Though I know as much about what it actually going on here, as anyone else, that is, very little indeed.


25 Post contains images David L : And that's what I've been saying - but it's still just an investigation. True but I think so far the other airlines are cooperating and are not subje
26 Richard28 : It was VS who reported BA to the authorities in the first place, after BA alegedley broke the law - so VS, it would seem, are not implicated, but mer
27 Timboflier215 : By reporting BA, VS have earned themselves immunity from prosecution. So, even if they are as guilty as BA, BA will suffer but VS will get away scot-
28 VV701 : Sorry but this is just totally ridiculous. In all industries executives with one company talk with those of their competitors almost on a daily basis
29 Monkeyboi : Although VS main gain immunity from the OFT in the uk, seems it might be 'in the poo' on the US side: From Sunday Times Today: ..............."BRITISH
30 Timboflier215 : considering the bad blood between the two airlines, I find it hard to believe they would enter into illegal agreements with each other, as each could
31 Wrighbrothers : Is it ? Okay, so they might have to talk, but they should talk about nothing other than what they have to. The whole point is , THEY KNOW they aren't
32 BCAL : An excellent post. If Bermuda II was abolished, it would be fatal for VS. BA might survive but will be badly hurt. Did not VS follow BA and introduce
33 VV701 : Yes. Let me remind you what you said, namely: Let me expand on what I said. Sorry but it is just totally ridiculous to suggest that BA executives: No
34 Post contains images Wrighbrothers : Oh right, a miss understanding on my part Wrighbrothers
35 Egmcman : As someone employed in the insolvency business I will tell you what could happen assets such as owned aircraft would have to be sold and it would lea
36 Post contains images BHXFAOTIPYYC : Just like Ofwat, Ofsted, Ofgas and whatever generally Of-trolley gov't department is lucky enough to 'get tough' with a major corporation. Bureaucrat
37 Richard28 : One would assume that, because it has been referred to the OFT, that it was not merely a conversation, but something more significant, and with some
38 TinkerBelle : Lemme guess, Walsh went fishing with SRB and he happened to mention it after a couple of tequila shots huuh!
39 BCAL : As I said earlier, if BA was to enter into liquidation or be declared bankrupt, its slots at LHR would probably be among the first assets to be reali
40 Post contains images Carduelis : Jolly fine boating weather . . . tête-a-tête . . . !
41 Post contains images TinkerBelle : Good one....but with SRB's publicity stunts, the boat should be in VS colors, not Varig's.
42 Post contains images Carduelis :
43 JAL : All the talk of BA going out of business is nonsense, do you seriously think that the British government will let that happen, I very much doubt it. B
44 VV701 : There are no British owned carriers operating out of LHR today. The original rules restricting BA share ownership by foreigners to 40 per cent of the
45 Wrighbrothers : While i agree that BA will most likely not go bust, the British government will not help BA, BA are, after all, a carrier that protests against gover
46 Carduelis : Where, when, how, why, what, who? Evidence? Support material?
47 BA787 : Explain this please. Is the U.K. in the same position as the U.S. Can carriers file for Bankruptcy Protection? Tom
48 74472 : Nah not in this country. Chapter 11 doesn't exist. Besides BA have enough cash reserves (about 2 billion quid) to cope, even with a maximum fine. Whi
49 Post contains links AlanUK : BA has been fighting hard to prevent carriers such as Alitalia and Olympic Airways from receiving money from their respective governements, and went
50 74472 : The industry is distorted enough without bankrupt/propt-up airlines flooding the market with cheap desperado type fares. How can airlines that do hav
51 Wrighbrothers : I beleive AlanUK has provided evidence. No, in some ways, thankfully, the U.K doesn't provide a chapter 11/13 safety net for airlines. Wrighbrothers
52 Carduelis : Quite right! A number of airlines have been dead for years, and only exist by being propped-up by subsidies from their respective governments. It's c
53 Carduelis : On the contrary - you used the expression 'dwindling' airlines. Alan made note of government subsidised airlines - a completely different ball game!
54 BCAL : Not correct. A person holding an US ADR or other loan or Bond with BA is not a shareholder of the company and therefore does not own any part of the
55 Post contains images Wrighbrothers : Oh, sorry, I worded it wrongly, My fault. I meant to say, nationaly supported airlines Wrighbrothers
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