1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 5751 posts, RR: 2 Posted (6 years 11 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 2852 times:
This is not a poll, but a discussion. Delta has been building up their hub at JFK. Ever since Delta closed their DFW hub, there were only three hubs in Delta's system. DFW now has its replacement - JFK. The growth rate at JFK is so fast, they have surpassed American in the number of departures in JFK. With all this growth, it seems like there is the possibility that JFK may surpass SLC as the third-largest hub.
Any thoughts?
[Edited 2006-06-23 21:31:50]
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SeeTheWorld From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 1275 posts, RR: 4 Reply 2, posted (6 years 11 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 2840 times:
Third largest hub according to: Flights? Seats? Passengers?
Dutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 58 Reply 5, posted (6 years 11 months 2 days ago) and read 2708 times:
DL has had a difficult history at JFK since it took over the Pan Am routes back in the early 1990s - they have added and reduced both domestic and international services out of JFK on many occassions, so its very hard to predict what the outcome of the most recent expansion will be.
I see JFK remaining more a gateway city - oriented to the huge O&D market out of the NYC area and also offering connecting service from key domestic cities to allow for international connections. More gateway, less hub. I dont think that DL will build a huge domestic network out of JFK for several reasons, the most important one being JetBlue.
DAL767400ER From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 5721 posts, RR: 50 Reply 6, posted (6 years 11 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 2599 times:
Well, to surpass SLC in the number of flights, DL would have to more than double their planned high-season schedule at JFK, and with all build-up, that's not gonna happen. Now, if for some obscure reason LGA is being closed and all flights are moved to JFK, perhaps then, but before that happens DL will actually merge with Northwest.
SESGDL From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3384 posts, RR: 11 Reply 7, posted (6 years 11 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 2434 times:
DL's hubs are pretty large, JFK will have a hard time surpassing SLC in the next few years. Here's an averaging of the total number of flights at DL hubs: (may not be current anymore)
TinPusher007 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 963 posts, RR: 2 Reply 8, posted (6 years 11 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2405 times:
For DL to come close to building up JFK bigger than SLC, they will definitely need a newer, more modern and bigger facility than T2 and T3.
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RJpieces From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 9, posted (6 years 11 months ago) and read 2255 times:
Quoting TinPusher007 (Reply 8): For DL to come close to building up JFK bigger than SLC, they will definitely need a newer, more modern and bigger facility than T2 and T3.
They wouldn't have to. Delta has more gates at JFK than B6....
B4real From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 2595 posts, RR: 6 Reply 10, posted (6 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 2223 times:
I disagree, JFK isn't really a replacement for DFW. True, DL calls JFK a hub, but it really functions as a different hub. In a similar way NW calls AMS and NRT hubs (which I disagree for AMS being classified as a hub there) they can't equate NRT and MEM, as they do totally different things. That's a little more extreme example, however.
Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 5): I see JFK remaining more a gateway city - oriented to the huge O&D market out of the NYC area and also offering connecting service from key domestic cities to allow for international connections.
Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 5): DL has had a difficult history at JFK since it took over the Pan Am routes back in the early 1990s - they have added and reduced both domestic and international services out of JFK on many occassions, so its very hard to predict what the outcome of the most recent expansion will be.
You predict something in your post, actually. The only think JFK has consistently been successful as is the O&D and gateway functions. If they can sustain 'hub' status, GREAT!!! But, if not, they'll cut back service again as they've done before to meet what is working there.
Quoting TinPusher007 (Reply 8): For DL to come close to building up JFK bigger than SLC, they will definitely need a newer, more modern and bigger facility than T2 and T3.
Along with what RJPieces says, they could use the gates they have more efficiently. I mean, DL has 29 gates @ JFK - MEX as an entire airport only has like 32! So, they could learn a bit on gate use efficiency if you ask me if the challenge arose.
DAL767400ER From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 5721 posts, RR: 50 Reply 11, posted (6 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 2204 times:
As far the gates go, there should indeed be enough capacity most of day, it's just that during the Euro push things can get problematic, as then really every single gate is being used.
Of course, if DL had the money, they could slowly rebuild the terminals to make better use of the space they have, particularly at the ends of both Terminal 2 and 3, as there is quite some unused space available there, plus gates 4,5,6,12,14,15 are layed out for planes up to the size of 747s. DL could convert gates 12-15 to the smaller DC-10-sized gate box to gain additional ramp space, even if just for RJs or props. Of course, that's all just speculative, and without a layout plan for the terminal area, I can't tell if that's actually possible.
RJpieces From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 12, posted (6 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 2191 times:
Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 11): As far the gates go, there should indeed be enough capacity most of day, it's just that during the Euro push things can get problematic, as then really every single gate is being used.
True, but the same goes for every terminal at JFK. JFK still has lots of room for growth--but not during the afternoon Euro rush.
Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 11): Of course, if DL had the money, they could slowly rebuild the terminals to make better use of the space they have, particularly at the ends of both Terminal 2 and 3, as there is quite some unused space available there, plus gates 4,5,6,12,14,15 are layed out for planes up to the size of 747s. DL could convert gates 12-15 to the smaller DC-10-sized gate box to gain additional ramp space, even if just for RJs or props. Of course, that's all just speculative, and without a layout plan for the terminal area, I can't tell if that's actually possible.
Possible I suppose but Delta shouldn't simply renovate T2/3 any more...They will need replacement sooner rather than later. To overhaul the gates now would be a major construction project with the disruptions that come along with that for a minimal gain...
That being said, Delta surely must have some rough ideas for how they want to go about replacing T2/T3 at JFK....
TinPusher007 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 963 posts, RR: 2 Reply 13, posted (6 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2034 times:
Quoting RJpieces (Reply 9): They wouldn't have to. Delta has more gates at JFK than B6....
They won't wehn B6 finishes building their new terminal.
"Flying isn't inherently dangerous...but very unforgiving of carelessness, incapacity or neglect."
Planetime From Singapore, joined Mar 2006, 719 posts, RR: 0 Reply 14, posted (6 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2006 times:
Quoting RJpieces (Reply 12): Possible I suppose but Delta shouldn't simply renovate T2/3 any more...They will need replacement sooner rather than later. To overhaul the gates now would be a major construction project with the disruptions that come along with that for a minimal gain...
That being said, Delta surely must have some rough ideas for how they want to go about replacing T2/T3 at JFK....
Term 2/3 are in pretty bad shape if not the worst shape of all the terminals in JFK specially when AA finsihes its project. Any plans for new terminal?
SLCUT2777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 3858 posts, RR: 11 Reply 17, posted (6 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 1825 times:
Quoting Planetime (Reply 14): The Aircrafts used are much bigger in JFK as compared to SLC.
Indeed, SLC is the RJ capitol of Delta. Concourse E at SLC always seams to have the most a/c movement, and there are times at SLC when you see line after line of CRJ-100/200 a/c lined up on either runway for departure or on final approach across the Salt Lake Valley sky. Thankfully we're seeing more CRJ-700 and EMB-170 a/c now as part of the mix.
As for the future, SLC is used for something entirely different than JFK. JFK is Delta's International gateway for the east coast, focusing mostly on flights to Europe and abroad. SLC on the other hand is Delta's western states network connection hub. SLC is usually the stop-off point where passengers from the east coast, the southeast or midwest connect to a more specific destination on the west coast like SNA, ONT, BUR, FAT or SAC rather than LAX or SFO or elsewhere out west such as more isolated Idaho or Montana stations like IDA, FCA, GRT etc...
So I think SLC will remain Delta's number 3 hub for the foreseeable future perhaps even supplanting CVG as the number 2 depending upon how well Delta does in the western states against competition from UA amongst others. DL through SLC is clearly a viable alternative to UA through DEN.
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Richierich From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 4022 posts, RR: 6 Reply 18, posted (6 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 1745 times:
Its interesting that JFK is so far behind CVG and SLC in terms of number of flights. But my guess is that the vast majority of flights at CVG and SLC are on RJ equipment - how do these hubs compare to JFK in terms of number of passengers or ASMs? My guess is that JFK wins in ASMs handily; it probably beats them in number of pax too but I'm not positive.
SLCUT2777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 3858 posts, RR: 11 Reply 19, posted (6 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 1741 times:
Quoting Richierich (Reply 18): it probably beats them in number of pax too but I'm not positive.
Not likely since all those CRJs are packed these days, and they do add up. But it wouldn't surprise me at all if JFK had more mainline DL flights than SLC or CVG.
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Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 20): Not even close. My numbers might be slightly off, but from what I can see JFK has 58 daily mainline flights, CVG has 83, and SLC has 94.
JFK will be up another 10-15 mainline over the next 6 months. 20-30 over the next 12 months. Aircraft will be re-allocated from poorly producing bases and point to point routes to make traction at JFK.
SESGDL From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3384 posts, RR: 11 Reply 24, posted (6 years 10 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 1607 times:
Yes, CVG is down about 100 daily flights from its peak last summer. DL did to this to increase O&D flight percentages. DL has recently added some service back to CVG, so we'll see what happens with DL and CVG in the long run.
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