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Rumours: MIA-TFN On Santa Barbara  
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32736 posts, RR: 72
Posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 3996 times:

Latest rumours are that, with their new Category 1 status, Santa Barbara Airways is strongly considering the start of a new non-stop flight between the Canary Islands and Miami. They already fly to the Canary Islands from Caracas. There is currently no non-stop service between the US and the Canary Islands, and Miami (and Florida in general) is home to the second largest Canary Island community in the Americas, outside of Caracas. Santa Barbara has actually mentioned wanting to start this route before, but their Cat. II status limited them. Miami-Tenerife is within range of an ETOPS equipped 757-200.

Santa Barbara currently flies twice daily between Miami and Caracas.


a.
24 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineHumberside From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2005, 4918 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 3952 times:

Could it also be a possible route for Air Madrid. They already have some long haul flights from TFN. Could maybe go BCN-TFN-MIA or MAD-TFN-MIA?


Visit the Air Humberside Website and Forum
User currently offlineVenezuela747 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 1428 posts, RR: 5
Reply 2, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 3861 times:

We'll I guess they will be appealing more to the FL community rather than the CCS.

With all the struggles that it is to connect throguh the US, passport/customs, I really don't see why people would go from CCS-MIA-TFN......doesnt Iberia serve CCS-TFN, or they could connect in Europe...about 10x easier.


Still good move for Santa Barbara to be expanding their flights. I believe MIA-MAD is the only flight from MIA to Spain so perhaps S3 could favor from this



ROLL TIDE!!!
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32736 posts, RR: 72
Reply 3, posted (8 years 2 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 3812 times:

Quoting Venezuela747 (Reply 2):

With all the struggles that it is to connect throguh the US, passport/customs, I really don't see why people would go from CCS-MIA-TFN......doesnt Iberia serve CCS-TFN, or they could connect in Europe...about 10x easier.

Santa Barbara already flies to the Canary Islands from Caracas non-stop. This flight is designed to connect the Canary Islands with Florida. Also, Iberia no longer flies CCS-TFN.



a.
User currently offlineChiguire From Venezuela, joined Sep 2004, 2005 posts, RR: 16
Reply 4, posted (8 years 2 months 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 3773 times:

In terms of traffic rights S3 could use its sister airlines on the Canary Islands, Islas Airways.

User currently offlineAviator27 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (8 years 2 months 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 3763 times:

When I was in Tenerife last year, I heard the very same rumour. Also, I thought most Guanches resettled in Venezuela. At least that is what their history book says. Also I understand that many of them also settled in the New Orleans area. I didn't know Miami hosted a large population of Canarians.

User currently offlineAcelanzarote From Spain, joined Nov 2005, 830 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (8 years 2 months 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 3675 times:

Hope this is true, would be nice to be able to fly from Lanzarote
to Florida in one day, better than having to route via MAD or LGW
etc and overnight......

thanks for the info



from the Island with sun and great photo's.. Why not visit Lanzarote
User currently offlineBigGSFO From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2920 posts, RR: 6
Reply 7, posted (8 years 2 months 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 3654 times:

Has AA considered this route with a 757 at all?

User currently offlineCivilav From Mexico, joined Oct 2004, 391 posts, RR: 12
Reply 8, posted (8 years 2 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 3570 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Thread starter):
Latest rumours are that, with their new Category 1 status, Santa Barbara Airways is strongly considering the start of a new non-stop flight between the Canary Islands and Miami.

This is an interesting thread but it ignores one basic premise:

Miami is a city in mainland USA
The Canary Islands (presumably Tenerife here, not even Las Palmas) are Spanish territory across "the pond"
Santa Barbara is a Venezuelan airline - though no one denies it owns Islas Airways in the Canary is.

I do not know of any bilateral ever signed by the US government that allows for a Latin American carrier to have 5th Freedom rights in US soil for services to Europe. Nor do I have any knowledge of ANY European government ever allowing that either in reverse !

The only airlines ever to have had access to Europe and the US with 5th Freedom rights were Avianca and VIASA when stopping over in San Juan. Mainland USA.. NEVER ! As a matter of fact, they were not allowed even in the 1950s when both, Avianca and Linea Aeropostal Venezolana (LAV) flew Super Constellations to Europe. Routes then were: Bogotá-Caracas-Nassau-Santa Maria (Azores)-Lisbon-Madrid for Avianca and Caracas-Havana-Santa Maria-Lisbon-Madrid-Rome for LAV. No stops on US soil !!!

I frankly doubt very much that the US Aviation authorities (and the Spanish ones for that matter !) will ever permit a 3 party carrier to have full 5th Freedom rights between those two points which should be handled by airlines from each respective country to begin with.

Santa Barbara may promote the Canary Islands as a destination by way of its "hub" in Caracas. That idea was VIASA's way back in the 70s and 80s, only that it did not pursue it to the degree that it should have. Caracas airport had everything going for it but, as ever, botched all attempts and clamped down on such "innovative" ideas.

Cheers from Cancún.


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32736 posts, RR: 72
Reply 9, posted (8 years 2 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 3563 times:

Quoting Civilav (Reply 8):

I do not know of any bilateral ever signed by the US government that allows for a Latin American carrier to have 5th Freedom rights in US soil for services to Europe. Nor do I have any knowledge of ANY European government ever allowing that either in reverse !

AeroMexico has flown MEX-MIA-MAD-ORY. LAN has traffic rights on MIA-FRA, though only uses them for scheduled cargo service.

Quoting Civilav (Reply 8):
I frankly doubt very much that the US Aviation authorities (and the Spanish ones for that matter !) will ever permit a 3 party carrier to have full 5th Freedom rights between those two points which should be handled by airlines from each respective country to begin with.

Dude, the US isn't Venezuela. The United States is perhaps, no, actually, is definitely, the most liberal country when it comes to giving out route authorities. The US will have no issues with giving Santa Barbara 5th freedom on MIA-TFN. None. And neither will Spain, who would be ecstatic at the potential to connect the Canary Islands with the US mainland.

Among the many 5th freedom rights that the US allows to Latin airlines (though many are unused):

-Iberia has 5th freedom from MIA and SJU to points in Guatemala, Nicuragua, Panama, Costa Rica, Peru, Venezuela, Colombia, and the Dominican Republic
-Mexicana has 5th freedom from MIA to points in Venezuela and the Dominican republic
-LAN has 5th freedom from MIA, LAX, and JFK to points in Mexico*, Venezuela, Colombia, the Dominican Republic, Peru, and Ecuador.
-AeroMexico still has 5th freedom between Miami and Spain, France.
-Martinair Holland has 5th freedom between points in the USA and points in Costa Rica.
-LAB has 5th freedom between the USA and Panama, Brazil.
-Aerolineas Argentinas has 5th freedom between the US and Canada.

The only noteable case in which a European or Latin airline has been denied Latin America-Europe 5th freedom rights via the USA is Aeroflot, who attempeted to begin Miami-Lima flights in the mid-90s.

*While the US government allows LAN Mexico<->US traffic, the Mexican government does not, so LAN's MIA-CUN flights carry no local traffic.



a.
User currently offlineLatinplane From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 2717 posts, RR: 14
Reply 10, posted (8 years 2 months 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 3541 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 9):
Among the many 5th freedom rights that the US allows to Latin airlines (though many are unused):

Varig: LAX-NGO LAX-TKO


I have no reason to believe that SB Airlines will have problems starting this route. SB Airlines' boss has always wanted to fly this route because he understands that there is market that needs to be served and because he knows that he has what it takes to make it work.

The fact is that SB Airlines is run by a Canarian-Venezuelan who still has a lot of ties to his homeland. He's really done wonders with the TFN-CCS route, which I think is the most popular route for his airline in terms of passengers and cargo transported. When SB took over the route from Avensa, they were flying something like 21,000 passengers per year and are now up above 30,000 on the route. These are not updated figures*

I wonder how they'll fly the route. They can either fly CCS-MIA-TFN, or they can do CCS-TFN-MIA-TFN-CCS.

I wonder when they'll be able to get their own equipment to fly their E.U. runs. It would probably be cheaper than wet-leasing the A310 or 763 they have done recently. Couldn't they just get a couple 762s since these are widely available.

 Smile LatinPlane


User currently offlineAcelanzarote From Spain, joined Nov 2005, 830 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (8 years 2 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 3510 times:

Has anyone flown Santa Barbara Airways, any comments good or bad
and what's their time keeping like??



from the Island with sun and great photo's.. Why not visit Lanzarote
User currently offlineStarGoldLHR From Heard and McDonald Islands, joined Feb 2004, 1529 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (8 years 2 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 3506 times:

I'm surprised none of the US regulars has a NYC-TFS/TFN route actually..

given new yorkers tastes for the exotic.. the canaries is definitely on their wilder side !



So far in 2008 45 flights and Gold already. JFK, IAD, LGA, SIN, HKG, NRT, AKL, PPT, LAX still to book ! Home Airport LCY
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32736 posts, RR: 72
Reply 13, posted (8 years 2 months 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 3425 times:

Quoting StarGoldLHR (Reply 12):
I'm surprised none of the US regulars has a NYC-TFS/TFN route actually..

given new yorkers tastes for the exotic.. the canaries is definitely on their wilder side !

The Canary Islands simply are not popular with Americans. The proposed MIA flight won't even be aimed at tourism (though airline and tourism officials will certainly take advantage of this to help create a market), but the VFR market.



a.
User currently offlineAcelanzarote From Spain, joined Nov 2005, 830 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (8 years 2 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 3420 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 13):
The Canary Islands simply are not popular with Americans. The proposed MIA flight won't even be aimed at tourism (though airline and tourism officials will certainly take advantage of this to help create a market), but the VFR market

Well there are plenty on holiday here in Lanzarote at the minute, talking to some in the restuarnt they had to fly via Madrid.
A bit of advertising in America would soon let more people know these islands exsist!!!
There are plenty of people out here who visit the USA, all have to route via Madrid or London at prsent....

cheers



from the Island with sun and great photo's.. Why not visit Lanzarote
User currently offlineAirportmanager From Ecuador, joined Mar 2001, 558 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (8 years 2 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 3408 times:

When will SB operate the 767 or 757 to UIO, as clearly mentioned long time ago, or was it a typical rumor.  Sad

User currently offlineCivilav From Mexico, joined Oct 2004, 391 posts, RR: 12
Reply 16, posted (8 years 2 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 3347 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 9):
Among the many 5th freedom rights that the US allows to Latin airlines (though many are unused):

Mark,

I said between points in the US mainland and Europe.
Yes, I am aware that Aeroméxico had rights at Miami on its flights to Europe as these were granted in the early 60s when DC-8s could not fly non-stop to Madrid (not only is it a hot and high airport but also the range was not there in those days). That was also the case of San Juan for Avianca and Viasa. Long range planes put paid to such stops.

You mention Iberia, well, it had a hub in Miami which was a direct result of a bilateral negotiation between Spain and the USA in the early 80s. No Latin American airline involved there..
Ditto Martinair.. A direct result of its open-skies agreement with the Netherlands.

The rest of the airlines you mention I am afraid are all LatinAmerican ones for traffic within the American continents. For that matter you should add that Venezuela still has 5th Freedom Rights between the Dominican Republic and New York / Washington and that Argentina has full rights too between Caracas and points in the USA. That is intra-America.

The USA is very "open" in its attitude towards competition and traffic rights... yes, up to a point. There is always a negotiated deal, a "tit-for-tat" if you like. I have not seen a single treaty signed by US civil aviation authorities which does not involve some concession from the other part. Ask the British authorities and their never-ending Bermuda round of talks...

Mark, all I am saying is that I find it very hard to believe that Santa Barbara, of all airlines, would be given such rights which would entail another bilateral with Venezuela and between the USA and Spain.

Time will tell.


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32736 posts, RR: 72
Reply 17, posted (8 years 2 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 3343 times:

Quoting Civilav (Reply 16):

Mark, all I am saying is that I find it very hard to believe that Santa Barbara, of all airlines, would be given such rights which would entail another bilateral with Venezuela and between the USA and Spain.

We will have to agree to disagree. The USA doesn't rarely plays games with route authorities unless there is a legitament reason to. In this case, there is none. The US will give Santa Barbara MIA-TFN traffic rights as quickly as they gave them MIA/FLL-CCS/MAR. In Spain, government officials will be so extatic that an airline wants to connect the Canary Islands with the US, it would be no issue either. And don't forget that the easy way out - just have the flight operate as Isla Airways - is a very likely alternative.



a.
User currently offlineCivilav From Mexico, joined Oct 2004, 391 posts, RR: 12
Reply 18, posted (8 years 2 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 3306 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 17):
Isla Airways

Mark,

That is an entirely different kind of fish altogether ! Islas Airways is a Spanish airline, run by Spaniards, backed up strongly by Coalicion Canaria (the governing party in the Canary Is) and legitimately flying a route between points in two countries which have nothing to do with Venezuela.

If this is what you had in mind all along, then I agree. Miami-Tenerife it is then but with Islas Airways.
Santa Barbara with a Venezuelan flag.. very unlikely.
Authority to fly to Fort Lauderdale and Miami was granted as it is part of the bilateral between both countries and the Venezuelan side had previously agreed to allow AA into Maracaibo a couple of years earlier. This was just a quid pro quo.
I want to remind you that Aeropostal is still waiting for approval to fly to Atlanta (a right inherited from the old LAV incidentally... while AA is hoping for Valencia and Porlamar). Are the US that "open" or do they seek a "fair" deal always ?

Anyhow, as I said before, time will tell.


User currently offlineLatinplane From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 2717 posts, RR: 14
Reply 19, posted (8 years 2 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 3304 times:

Quoting Civilav (Reply 18):
That is an entirely different kind of fish altogether ! Islas Airways is a Spanish airline, run by Spaniards, backed up strongly by Coalicion Canaria (the governing party in the Canary Is) and legitimately flying a route between points in two countries which have nothing to do with Venezuela.

Islas Airways is a subsidiary of Santa Barbara Airlines, correct? Until last year it was headed by the CEO of Santa Barbara's daughter. It is now headed by a Venezuelan who used to work for Santa Barbara. All that Islas has to do, is to wet-lease the aircraft from SB Airlines since it will most likely be used once a week.

 Smile LatinPlane


User currently offlineCivilav From Mexico, joined Oct 2004, 391 posts, RR: 12
Reply 20, posted (8 years 2 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 3297 times:

LatinPlane,

No, that is incorrect. Islas Airways is no way a subsidiary of Santa Barbara.
If anything, it is the other way round. Islas existed well before Santa Barbara was finally bought by the Yanez family in mid-1998. The Yanez family has been interested in an airline since the mid 90s when they first created (on paper just about) Air Margarita International with the idea of starting services from Venezuela to the Canary Islands by way of this Venezuelan island which has a different air traffic regime to the rest of the country. In the end, Air Margarita came to nothing and all plans ditched till the opportunity to snatch ailing Santa Barbara showed up in March 1998.

As to the current head of Islas being a Venezuelan.. I would beg to differ from you. He may have been born in Venezuela (a country that is affectionately known by Canary islanders as the 8th island as, at one time in the 50s there were more people in Venezuela than in the Canary islands themselves !!) but he is most definitely a holder of Spanish citizenship too. Do not forget that there are around 800,000 people with dual Spanish-Venezuelan nationality, some of whom are in Spain. The vast majority, though diminishing, are in Venezuela or the American continent.

Nobody denies that the real owners of Islas are the Yanez family, who come from the island of La Palma and settled in Venezuela in the 50s. They have been very succesful and, at one time, owned from the largest producer and exporter of car brake components to the Banco Canarias.

If Islas is tempted to fly the route it can indeed procure S3 equipment. As it can from any other available source.
All I have said all along is that it would be very difficult to see a Santa Barbara plane on a regular Santa Barbara flight between Miami and Tenerife for the set of reasons I have outlined.

Thanks for your input !


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32736 posts, RR: 72
Reply 21, posted (8 years 2 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 3292 times:

Quoting Civilav (Reply 18):
I want to remind you that Aeropostal is still waiting for approval to fly to Atlanta (a right inherited from the old LAV incidentally... while AA is hoping for Valencia and Porlamar). Are the US that "open" or do they seek a "fair" deal always ?

Aeropostal has yet to apply with the US DOT for Atlanta. Once (make that if, because I doubt they ever will) they do, they will get them within a month or so, no problem.

Like I said, not all countries work like Venezuela does. The US has no issues giving airlines new route authorities.



a.
User currently offlineLatinplane From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 2717 posts, RR: 14
Reply 22, posted (8 years 2 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 3285 times:

Quoting Civilav (Reply 20):
No, that is incorrect. Islas Airways is no way a subsidiary of Santa Barbara

Are you sure? Because everything that I read points otherwise...

YANEZ was the first CEO of Islas Airways, launched in 2003. He's right there in the middle.



Source: http://airline92.com/noticias/2003/febrero/semana03-07-feb.htm


Read this: http://www.canarias7.es/impresa/articulo.cfm?Id=1453846

Basically, it is stating that SB Airlines will open its very mentioned Funchal route as a stop of a second weekly Tenerife flight. It will also open Oporto via Tenerife through its Islas Airways subsidiary. But it also says this:

En este sentido, Rafael Gallego, presidente de la Asociación de Agencias de Viaje de Las Palmas, destaca que en el Estado de Florida tienen su residencia unos 250.000 canarios, la segunda colonia de isleños más importante en América. Las expectativas de que a corto plazo se estrechen relaciones comerciales entre Estados Unidos y Canarias también han llevado a Santa Bárbara a expandir sus proyectos entre estos dos puntos.

Quoting Civilav (Reply 20):
As to the current head of Islas being a Venezuelan.. I would beg to differ from you. He may have been born in Venezuela (a country that is affectionately known by Canary islanders as the 8th island as, at one time in the 50s there were more people in Venezuela than in the Canary islands themselves !!) but he is most definitely a holder of Spanish citizenship too

Right, I'm not saying that it isn't the case. Most large Latin American countries have Spanish communities that are eligible for double-citizenship status, not just Venezuela. I'm just saying that he's Venezuelan by birth, but was hired by non other than Mr. Yanez to head Islas Airways because obviously he understands as a business man that this guy would do the job better than his daughter can as the General Director of Islas Airways because he has had good experience at SB Airlines.

El consejo de administración de Islas Airways ha acordado el nombramiento de Régulo Andrade como nuevo director general de la compañía. Nacido en Venezuela hace 36 años, se graduó en 1990 como piloto comercial e inició su trayectoria profesional de la mano de la aerolínea Santa Bárbara, empresa matriz de Islas, donde en poco tiempo se convirtió en jefe de flota de los ATR

Empresa Matriz does mean, mother company in Spanish, right?

http://www.fuerteventuradigital.com/...ciasCanarias/2005/07/21/194247.asp

  LatinPlane

[Edited 2006-06-28 08:31:11]

User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32736 posts, RR: 72
Reply 23, posted (8 years 2 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 3272 times:

Another article that mentions Islas Airways and Santa Barbara collaborating on MIA-Canary Islands:

Su experiencia como piloto comercial con aviones ATR, precisamente los utilizados por Islas, convierten a R�gulo Andrade en la persona id�nea para ocupar el cargo anteriormente desempe�ado por Gabriela Gonz�lez Carrillo, al dedicarse al proyecto que vienen desarrollando conjuntamente Islas y Santa Barbara, para el establecimiento de nuevas conexiones entre el Archipielago y Miami.

http://www.fuerteventuradigital.com/...ciasCanarias/2005/07/21/194247.asp



a.
User currently offlineCivilav From Mexico, joined Oct 2004, 391 posts, RR: 12
Reply 24, posted (8 years 2 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 3197 times:

Quoting Latinplane (Reply 22):
Empresa Matriz does mean, mother company in Spanish, right?

Yes LatinPlane. Matriz means holding company. Santa Barbara is the name of the Holding Company for the whole set of enterprises owned by the Yanez family, both, in Venezuela and abroad.

When they bought Santa Barbara it was a God-send to them since their holding already had that name. The airline was quickly re-baptised Santa Barbara airlines. Islas was already in operation by then and it belonged to the Santa Barbara holding. That is 100% correct.

If Islas Airways does fly to Miami, wonderful ! A large chunk of those immigrants there were either born or made their capital in Cuba but have strong ties to the Canary Islands. Then, in the 90s and during this century, many more came from Venezuela.

Greetings from Cancún.


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