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If It Was'nt For The A320 Where Would Airbus Be  
User currently offlineMalb777 From Australia, joined Jul 2004, 462 posts, RR: 1
Posted (8 years 6 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 7572 times:

Question for all the wanna be airline execs' out there . If it was not for the A320 family where would Airbus be at the moment? lets look at each model

A300 while it was / is a good aircraft and the 1st twin aisle short haul . never made the same sales as the 767.( as far as i am aware)
A310 another good ac but never really sold heaps
A320 sold 4000+ as has the 737 in many variants and is the best seller and definately the cash cow for airbus
A330 reasanoble sales but nothing spectacular
A340 killed by the 777 models of late
A350 lets wait and see
A380 lets see what happens
so where would airbus be withiout the A320 ? and what are they going to do about it.?


thank god i was not born a bird. this type of flying is much better
47 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineScouseflyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2006, 3403 posts, RR: 9
Reply 1, posted (8 years 6 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 7558 times:

They wouldn't be where they are but that is a daft question as all aircraft manuafacturers have to have a range and the smaller planes are the better selling ones, where would Boeing be without the 737, where would McD be without the DC9/MD80/MD90.....

User currently offlineMauriceB From Netherlands, joined Aug 2004, 2491 posts, RR: 25
Reply 2, posted (8 years 6 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 7529 times:

Although im a big boeing fan, just like you I guess, I think youre comment is irrelevant, because it seems like you are only looking at the disadvantages of each type.

Quote:
A300 while it was / is a good aircraft and the 1st twin aisle short haul . never made the same sales as the 767.( as far as i am aware)
A310 another good ac but never really sold heaps
A320 sold 4000+ as has the 737 in many variants and is the best seller and definately the cash cow for airbus
A330 reasanoble sales but nothing spectacular
A340 killed by the 777 models of late
A350 lets wait and see
A380 lets see what happens
so where would airbus be withiout the A320 ? and what are they going to do about it.?

A300 - But it sold well, and in the cargo section its way more popular than the 767

A310 - They made profit with it, and untill today is still a popular pax/cargo plane

A320 - Really big hit, and with airbus improving the plane day by day, it will still be popular in let's say 10 years

A330 - not spectacular? Don't forget the plane came way later than the 767, and since its launched it sold very well, even today, were it outsells the 767 big time, especially because of its cargo space. Also the new military version will be a big hit.

A340- Not Killed by the 777 at all, do you have any idea how much there are flying now a days?

A350- with the improvements it will be a great plane, but think they have a hugh disadvantage over the 787, called ''first day of flight'' never the less, it will be popular with current A330 carriers and airlines seeking for a A340/A330/A310/A300/DC-10/MD-11/777 (early models) replacement, wich can't be done by the 787 alone  

A380- Although they have some hugh problems with the plane the last couple of months (performance/sabotage/deliverydate)
it already sold like hot cakes, and with newer models (perhaps a smaller and a bigger version of the plane) it will be popular with Pax airlines, and with Package cargo airlines like UPS, FedEx. It will succeed, eventually

A400- Seems like the perfect replacement for its only competitor, the Hercules, wich is still a great aircraft but in my opinion doesn't fit in the modern war game. So the A400 will be a succes.

[Edited 2006-06-27 14:49:45]

User currently offlineThering From Brazil, joined Jun 2006, 530 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (8 years 6 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 7496 times:

Quoting Malb777 (Thread starter):
A330 reasanoble sales but nothing spectacular

The A330 (mainly the 200 series) has not bad sales at all!!

Quoting Malb777 (Thread starter):
A340 killed by the 777 models of late

The 180 min and after the 207 min ETOP certification for the B777 helped a lot to made him a much better seller than the A340!

Quoting Scouseflyer (Reply 1):
where would Boeing be without the 737, where would McD be without the DC9/MD80/MD90.....

I completely agree with that!



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User currently offlineLeezyjet From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 4042 posts, RR: 53
Reply 4, posted (8 years 6 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 7470 times:

Quoting Scouseflyer (Reply 1):
where would McD be without the DC9/MD80/MD90.....

Well where are they WITH them ?.

 Wink



"She Rolls, 45 knots, 90, 135, nose comes up to 20 degrees, she's airborne - She flies, Concorde Flies"
User currently offlineRainmaker From Brazil, joined Jan 2006, 115 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (8 years 6 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 7420 times:

Your asking an aircraft manufacturer of how it would be like without manufacturing aircraft is kind of weird isn´t it? I mean, that is what they do, don´t they?

Cheers


User currently offlineThering From Brazil, joined Jun 2006, 530 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (8 years 6 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 7394 times:

Quoting MauriceB (Reply 2):
A340- Not Killed by the 777 at all, do you have any idea how much there are flying now a days?

There are 200 more B777 tham A340 flying today, and the A340's first flight was in 1991, 3 years earlier than the B777 (1994)!



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User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31444 posts, RR: 85
Reply 7, posted (8 years 6 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 7362 times:
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I'm with those who are...confused...as to what point this thread is trying to make. If it is that without the A320, Airbus would be a much smaller aircraft manufacturer, then yes, probably so.

Sure, the A320 is the best-selling member of the Airbus family, but the 737 is the best-selling member of the Boeing family. So as Scouseflyer noted, where would Boeing be without the 737? Probably also a much smaller aircraft manufacturer.

But neither of them would be struggling, I imagine, since Airbus has the small widebody twin market at the moment and Boeing has the large widebody twin market at the moment and both make pretty good money at the moment.

As others above me have noted, considering how all the models other then the A300 and A310 entered service years or even decades later than to their Boeing counterparts, they have all sold exceptionally well against them.

And those later EIS' helped Airbus tailor the plane to surpass the comparable Boeing product, just as the 777's later EIS helped it surpass the Airbus A340 family and the 787 will surpass the A330 family.

It's the way of successful companies, and both Boeing and Airbus are successful companies.

[Edited 2006-06-27 15:34:20]

User currently offlineMauriceB From Netherlands, joined Aug 2004, 2491 posts, RR: 25
Reply 8, posted (8 years 6 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 7344 times:

Quote:
There are 200 more B777 tham A340 flying today, and the A340's first flight was in 1991, 3 years earlier than the B777 (1994)!

Sure but that still doesn't mean that the A340 is a failure or something, it still sold well in a good sector, but one has to be the winner  Wink

Also the A330 and A340 are close to each other when looking at performance, and lots of airlines have both A330 and A340, where the 777 operators mainly use the 200 version, so actually you have to count the A330 and A340 orders as one and the 777/767 orders. when looking at that i think both manufactors are equel to eachother in the last 10 years.


User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 9, posted (8 years 6 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 7287 times:

It's academic at the moment because Airbus have a considerable backlog for all types. But sales of all models (including the A320) are lagging dismally this year. The figures are:-

A320 variants - 84 (Boeing 737 - 334).

A330 - 5, A340 - 3 (Boeing, 787 - 69, 777 - 22).

No other Airbus types have achieved any sales at all, unless one counts 13 X A350s (which has presumably been discontinued). On Boeing's side, they have also sold 5 X 747s and 4 X 767s.

It does occur to me that, having the prospect of a strong cash flow for several years to come from orders already in hand, Boeing could very well afford to cut the price of the 737 to the bone, and threaten Airbus' last remaining lifeline. Judging by the dramatic slowdown in A320 sales this year, they may already have started doing that.



"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineWINGS From Portugal, joined May 2005, 2831 posts, RR: 68
Reply 10, posted (8 years 6 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 7198 times:

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 9):
Boeing could very well afford to cut the price of the 737 to the bone, and threaten Airbus' last remaining lifeline. Judging by the dramatic slowdown in A320 sales this year, they may already have started doing that.

Or it may be that Airbus are holding off some orders for Farnborough.

Regards,
Wings



Aviation Is A Passion.
User currently offlineManni From South Korea, joined Nov 2001, 4221 posts, RR: 22
Reply 11, posted (8 years 6 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 7138 times:

Quoting WINGS (Reply 10):

Or it may be that Airbus are holding off some orders for Farnborough.

Right now, announcing new orders might not be in Airbus best interest. But in 3 weeks time, a lot can change. The question is not will they announce orders at Farnborough, but how many will they announce.



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User currently offlineBoeingguy1 From Ireland, joined Jan 2006, 415 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (8 years 6 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 7115 times:

Quoting Thering (Reply 3):
The 180 min and after the 207 min ETOP certification for the B777 helped a lot to made him a much better seller than the A340!

Yes, so does the increased fuel preformance... its a better plane overall.



Gatwick South! Id rather crash in Brighton!
User currently offlineGrantcv From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 430 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (8 years 6 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 7092 times:

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 9):
Judging by the dramatic slowdown in A320 sales this year, they may already have started doing that.

I think Airbus borrowed sales from the future to maintain their sales position last year. Especially with the counting of sales of A320's to China. They probably made very good offers to all potential customers in the final weeks of 2005 and many customers bit. Problem is, it created a vacuum in the beginning of 2006.


User currently offlineScouseflyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2006, 3403 posts, RR: 9
Reply 14, posted (8 years 6 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 7092 times:

"I think Airbus borrowed sales from the future to maintain their sales position last year. Especially with the counting of sales of A320's to China. They probably made very good offers to all potential customers in the final weeks of 2005 and many customers bit. Problem is, it created a vacuum in the beginning of 2006."

It's probably a slightly daft position to take as orders are only prestige - it's delivery and cash flow that are really important - Ie you can take millions of orders but you only get paid for most of them when you deliver something!


User currently offlineEI321 From Iraq, joined Jul 2009, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (8 years 6 months 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 6890 times:

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 9):
But sales of all models (including the A320) are lagging dismally this year.

I'll let you in on a little secret, Airbus stock pile orders for announcements at big airshows. I would presume that somebody that spends as much time here as you would have figured that by now. It was the exact same storey last year, Boeing's orderbook was way ahead of airbus until the summer airshows. Look what happened in the end.


User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 16, posted (8 years 6 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 6731 times:

Quoting EI321 (Reply 15):
I'll let you in on a little secret, Airbus stock pile orders for announcements at big airshows.

Pretty big secret if so, E1321. I wasn't aware that they did that with large NUMBERS of orders? How many orders did Airbus actually announce at airshows during 2005?

The current arithmetic is pretty stunning. Boeing 434 orders, Airbus 92. If you are in on the 'secret,' as you imply, do you mean that Airbus are going to announce 342 firm orders at Farnborough, and dramatically draw level?



"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineB6WNQX From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 247 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (8 years 6 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 6721 times:

Quoting Manni (Reply 11):
The question is not will they announce orders at Farnborough, but how many will they announce.

Exactly...it seems to have become a ritual for Airbus to announce orders at the airshows. Should be an interesting airshow to say the least.


User currently offlineThering From Brazil, joined Jun 2006, 530 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (8 years 6 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 6716 times:

Quoting MauriceB (Reply 8):
so actually you have to count the A330 and A340 orders as one and the 777/767 orders

If you put together A330 and A340, you should put together 777 and 787, considering that 767 is not a new project.



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User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1001 posts, RR: 51
Reply 19, posted (8 years 6 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 6699 times:

Quoting Manni (Reply 11):
The question is not will they announce orders at Farnborough, but how many will they announce.

Then it's a question of if airshow orders will ever become real orders. The QR commitment for 60 A350 was an airshow order from last year, and it's gone no where. Heck it's been 12 months and the concurent 777 order has just now been signed...

Quoting Thering (Reply 18):
If you put together A330 and A340, you should put together 777 and 787, considering that 767 is not a new project.

What has that got to do with anything? If you want the most accurate number, you need to compare:

A300 sales from 1987-2006
A330/A340 sales from 1987-2006
A350 sales from 2004-2006

versus

767 sales from 1987-2006
777 sales from 1991-2006
787 sales from 2004-2006


User currently offlineManni From South Korea, joined Nov 2001, 4221 posts, RR: 22
Reply 20, posted (8 years 6 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 6657 times:

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 19):
Then it's a question of if airshow orders will ever become real orders.

That question is not limited to airshow order announcements, nor Airbus (need examples?). You just happen to dig up an example of a 'commitment' that was announced at an airshow, which is at the moment neither firmed up nor cancelled.

I also remember the skepticism when Airbus announced the 100 aircraft order for Indigo at last years airshow... the first one rolled out of the paintshop last week.



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User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 21, posted (8 years 6 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 6625 times:

Manni (and others), in business terms it is impossible for large numbers of actual signed orders to be kept secret for months.

The reason is that they are invariably binding multi-billion-dollar transactions. The officers of the airlines concerned (and, indeed, EADS) are bound to inform their shareholders, and the market, of such transactions without delay.

In very rare cases orders are actually signed and sealed during airshows. But that would be the exception rather than the rule since it would involve attendance at the show not only of the relevant CEOs, but also of the commercial/legal teams of both sides.

What it boils down to is that the most you can expect from Airbus at Farnborough is a lot of talk about 'commitments'. Certainly nothing that will even begin to catch up with Boeing's huge lead in orders this year (which currently stands at 434 to 92, and will probably increase still further when Boeing up-dates its order page tomorrow).



"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlinePlaneHunter From Germany, joined Mar 2006, 6945 posts, RR: 77
Reply 22, posted (8 years 6 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 6605 times:

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 9):
Boeing could very well afford to cut the price of the 737 to the bone, and threaten Airbus' last remaining lifeline. Judging by the dramatic slowdown in A320 sales this year, they may already have started doing that.

And which carriers do you think have switched to the B737 based on that theory? Most orders have been placed by existing B737NG customers...


PH



Nothing's worse than flying the same reg twice!
User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 23, posted (8 years 6 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 6591 times:

Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 22):
Most orders have been placed by existing B737NG customers...

Who will all have been offered the A320 instead, and turned it down......



"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlinePlaneHunter From Germany, joined Mar 2006, 6945 posts, RR: 77
Reply 24, posted (8 years 6 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 6579 times:

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 23):
Who will all have been offered the A320 instead, and turned it down......

It's a bit naive to assume that airlines with large B737NG fleets such as Aeromexico, Air Europa, AirTran, Alaska, Continental, COPA, GOL, Pegasus, Southwest or WestJet would seriously evaluate to order A32X series aircraft at this point of time.

If A320 customers start to switch to the N737NG, or airlines without either A320 and B737 start to order B737NGs in significant numbers, then you may have a point.


PH



Nothing's worse than flying the same reg twice!
25 Manni : Agreed. But those might eventually all or partially turn into firm orders. Not sure why Airbus needs to catch up with Boeing here. With a backlog of
26 NAV20 : With respect, Manni, that's the point. At best, Airbus has orders in hand to support four years' production - less if, as one expects, some of the de
27 RayChuang : Actually, the Europeans were already pushing for a single-aisle short-range airliner well before the A320 was born. There was a need to replace all th
28 Lordanmol : I thought I heard somewhere that the A380 programme is still not in a profit?
29 Post contains images Manni : Four years at maximum capacity. 5 years at last years output. That's a very envious backlog for any manufacturer of any product. If you assume that t
30 Post contains images NAV20 : Dunno, Manni - don't know about you, but I'm in uncharted territory. I don't recall ever before seeing a major company totally lose credibility, on a
31 Post contains images PlaneHunter : Airbus certainly hasn't "totally lost credibility on a world-wide scale", not every customer is out for A350/A370s or A380s. Are you actually aware o
32 A350 : I miss the point that the A340 has already been evaluated parallel to the A320 and Airbus decided to go for the A320 first. If they had gone for the A
33 Markabcan : Ummm, they certainly have not lost total credibility as you put it! Their recent problems have brought on negative publicity but they are still a ver
34 EI321 : If your asking me whether Airbus will announce 342, well my crystal ball is in for repair so I cant tell you exactly how many orders will be announce
35 Aviator27 : Airbus is a relatively young company. Apart from the A300 model, the rest of their airplanes are relatively new. The A320 design freeze was 1985. EIS
36 Lufthansa : Well said aviator27.... unfortunately everybody here isn't quite as mature and insightful as you and plenty feel the need to carry on in a more prima
37 Post contains images Bmacleod : If the A340 is dead why is it still in production? LH, AF and most other European airlines ordered a lot. It also did very well in Asia. If not for t
38 DfwRevolution : It's dead in the sense that it has zero future as a viable competitor Now you're just being flat ignorant... (1) He was speaking in future tense, not
39 Grantcv : Happens all the time: Enron, Arthur Anderson, Worldcom. Compared to those, Airbus' problems are minor. Airbus will recover.
40 Post contains images 787engineer : As of the end of 2005, Airbus has delivered 313 A340s since its EIS in 1993, 310 of which are still flying. Boeing has delivered 539 777s since EIS i
41 Manni : Airbus has currently a backlog of 231 aircraft for the A330/340 family, apparently excluding the 5 A345 for Kingfisher and including the 18 (?) A346
42 787engineer : Good point, thank you for the correction, I was basing my numbers off the 2000 frame backlog whereas it's closer to 2100 now and about 2200 at the en
43 Post contains images Stitch : While the "barriers to entry" for a new type of plane would be high for carriers with an existing fleet, if the financial model is compelling enough,
44 Bmacleod : Well we know the 767 will be replaced by the 787, the 747 still has hope with the 747-8F, though no movement so far on the 747-8I (pax version)[Edite
45 PlaneHunter : You can call it how ever you want, but it's a FACT that only a minority of worldwide Airbus customers is affected by current problems. Check the orig
46 Post contains images Manni : Bmacleod, Just to clarify. This quote you posted has not been written by me. Indeed, if Airbus keeps producing their widebodies at current production
47 Post contains images Johnny : @DfwRevolution "What has that got to do with anything? If you want the most accurate number, you need to compare:" A300 sales from 1987-2006 A330/A340
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