Flying Belgian From Belgium, joined Jun 2001, 2366 posts, RR: 10 Posted (6 years 11 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 7143 times:
Hi !
That's what I've read in the latest Airliner World issue. In an article dedicated to the Russian Sibir/S7, they said the latter found an agreement with GECAS to lease ten A319s sourced out from NW.
So my question is why is NW getting rid of such new airplanes when they still have to replace their classic fuel burner aka DC9-51 ??
Scouseflyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2006, 3267 posts, RR: 10 Reply 1, posted (6 years 11 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 7123 times:
Cos they own the DC9s and the A319s are on lease so it is cheaper to terminate a lease rather than try and sell a plane that wouldn't have many takers?
Flypdx From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 636 posts, RR: 0 Reply 2, posted (6 years 11 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 7100 times:
1) Do a search.
2) In case you don't want to, it is because of lease costs on the newer aircraft. On the DC9s they aren't paying to lease them. Just for fuel and other expenses. With the airbus aircraft as well as some other aircraft they have lease costs as well as fuel and other expenses. When it comes down to it, it must be cheaper to keep an older aircraft that may have higher fuel costs than to keep an aircraft on lease with lower fuel costs. Especially if the routes do not require the range of an A319.
United787 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 2352 posts, RR: 1 Reply 3, posted (6 years 11 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 7033 times:
This will push the average NW aircraft age down even farther. I thought I remember it being about 19 years old.
MaxQ2351 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 4, posted (6 years 11 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 6964 times:
Northwest also has two subfleets of both the A-320 and A-319. In the case of they -319, they have the A-319/113 and A-319/114, the difference being the 114 has slightly uprated motors. It is my understanding that NWA has been trying to eliminate the 113 subfleet in favor of maintaining just the 114 subfleet.
In the case of NWA's A-320's, they have the A-320/211 and A-320/212. They have a decent number of 211's, so I don't think there are any plans to terminate their leases......anytime soon at least.
Dutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 58 Reply 5, posted (6 years 11 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 6816 times:
As pointed out, the A319s are leased and the leasing costs can be high - NW probably could not negotiate the lease price down on this group of A319s and thus the leases were terminated pursuant to NW's bankrputcy and will go to a new operator.
Also keep in mind that NW is downsizing its operation and it will need less aircraft - atleast initially - to go forward as it works its way out of bankruptcy. For example, it could be that many of the services once flown with A319s will now be operated by Compass with smaller jets.
MD90fan From Bahamas, joined Jul 2005, 2931 posts, RR: 7 Reply 6, posted (6 years 11 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 6684 times:
Hello, Flying Belgian
The ten NW A319s going to S7 are :N303NB, N304NB, N305NB, N306NB, N307NB, N308NB, N309NB, N311NB N312NB and N310NB. Some are already at MST for repainting as I speak.
These birds were stored at Marana after the whole BK stuff last year.
The ten NW A319s going to S7 are :N303NB, N304NB, N305NB, N306NB, N307NB, N308NB, N309NB, N311NB N312NB and N310NB. Some are already at MST for repainting as I speak.
These birds were stored at Marana after the whole BK stuff last year.
Burnsie28 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 7421 posts, RR: 9 Reply 8, posted (6 years 11 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 6175 times:
Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 5): As pointed out, the A319s are leased and the leasing costs can be high
Somewhat true, only two A319's are leased.
As of the end of December, which should have been after the fate of the 10 aircraft, NW now owns 64 of the A319's and leases just two, i believe they used to lease 12 319's.
As for the A320's they own 43 of them and lease 32 of them. All the DC-9's are owned, They used to have four leased DC-9's.
They are still going to take delivery of the last 5 A319's on order and 2 A320's on order.
"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
FlyGuyClt From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 537 posts, RR: 9 Reply 10, posted (6 years 11 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 5171 times:
Quoting United787 (Reply 3): This will push the average NW aircraft age down even farther. I thought I remember it being about 19 years old.
Stephen
Over 30 DC9's have been parked. I don't think 10 A319's is going to make a difference in a bad way on that note.
Jano From Slovakia, joined Jan 2004, 814 posts, RR: 4 Reply 11, posted (6 years 11 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 4840 times:
Quoting United787 (Reply 3): This will push the average NW aircraft age down even farther. I thought I remember it being about 19 years old.
Let's not forget that NWA took delivery of 18 A330s since summer 2003. There are 14 more still to be delivered.
All DC10s are to be withdrawn from service by Jan 2007.
DC9s are being withdrawn from the service at about 30 per year. Right now there are 115 of them. I remember times some 2 years sago when NWA had more than 160 of these.
Scouseflyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2006, 3267 posts, RR: 10 Reply 12, posted (6 years 11 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 4773 times:
Quoting Jano (Reply 11): DC9s are being withdrawn from the service at about 30 per year. Right now there are 115 of them. I remember times some 2 years sago when NWA had more than 160 of these.
So are the newer A319/20s coming on stream to replace these?
Jano From Slovakia, joined Jan 2004, 814 posts, RR: 4 Reply 13, posted (6 years 11 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 4728 times:
Quoting Scouseflyer (Reply 12): Quoting Jano (Reply 11):
DC9s are being withdrawn from the service at about 30 per year. Right now there are 115 of them. I remember times some 2 years sago when NWA had more than 160 of these.
So are the newer A319/20s coming on stream to replace these
From what I understand by reading posts here by people, who I believe are related to NWA, DC9s are to be replaced by either E170/175 + E190/195 or CRJ700/900. Some of these would be flown by Compass and some by NWA.
Thering From Brazil, joined Jun 2006, 530 posts, RR: 0 Reply 15, posted (6 years 11 months 4 weeks ago) and read 3878 times:
Quoting Flying Belgian (Thread starter): So my question is why is NW getting rid of such new airplanes when they still have to replace their classic fuel burner aka DC9-51 ??
They own their DC-9 and lease the A319, so it's much cheaper to get rid of the A319!
Flydreamliner From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2759 posts, RR: 15 Reply 16, posted (6 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 3813 times:
Quoting Jano (Reply 13): From what I understand by reading posts here by people, who I believe are related to NWA, DC9s are to be replaced by either E170/175 + E190/195 or CRJ700/900. Some of these would be flown by Compass and some by NWA.
That is the plan coming out of NW. They won't be able to buy anything till they exit bankruptcy though. They have more domestic capacity than they need, and they're cutting it. The DC-9s are still cheaper overall to fly since they are paid off. Also, the A319's are worth more money - they can get something by terminating their leases and leasing out the ones they own, or selling them off - anything to pay for their planned international expansion to asia - which is the cornerstone of their plan for profitability. With their NRT hub, they are poised, and have every intention to become the number one American carrier to asia in a big way - coupled with their European expansion plans and thier close relationship with KLM/AF. The A333s will be the backbone of their european expansion, replacing all the DC10s and adding new capacities, their A332 and 787 will be the backbone of their asian expansion. All of this costs money - and their domestic routes are not terribly successful, so at this point, NW's desperate leadership is getting money out of wherever they can.
"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
M404 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 2214 posts, RR: 5 Reply 18, posted (6 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 3259 times:
Just wondering if any of the lease agreements being renegotiated allow for acft leased to NWA to be in turned leased to a third party from NWA? Of course this would have to be approved by the original lessor and questions of why not just return and re-lease arise but am curious if, for instance, some short term leases could be done that way for equipment they wanted back after BK reorganization.
[Edited 2006-06-28 22:10:27]
Less sarcasm and more thought equal better understanding
Breiz From France, joined Mar 2005, 1815 posts, RR: 2 Reply 19, posted (6 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3161 times:
Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 8): Somewhat true, only two A319's are leased.
Let's be precise about it: none of the A319 of Northwest are leased in the way that they are rented from a leasing company (ILFC, GECAS,...).
Airlines do like you and me (at least me), they borrow money from banks to buy airliners. Until fully paid, the ac remain kind of the bank's property (not exactly, I know).
So the A319s in question were financed by First Security Bank which sold them (the debt) to Wells Fargo Bank Northwest NA, then State Street Bank which in turn, put them up for sale by auction (maybe some of you saw the auction advertisement in Flight International Feb. 28th, 2006).
And Sibir purchased them.
Sibir was initially interested by getting from GECAS 10 A319s returned by United.
727LOVER From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 5770 posts, RR: 20 Reply 20, posted (6 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3109 times:
Well, nobody's asked, so I'll ask. Why the greenish 733?
Isitsafenow From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4984 posts, RR: 26 Reply 22, posted (6 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 2922 times:
Quoting United787 (Reply 3): This will push the average NW aircraft age down even farther. I thought I remember it being about 19 years old.
So? I was on four of their DC 9's the last two days. You know, they fly
real good. I kinda like them, too.
safe
[Edited 2006-06-29 05:05:25]
If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
TL925 From United States of America, joined exactly 7 years ago today! , 65 posts, RR: 0 Reply 23, posted (6 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 2788 times:
Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 20): Let's be precise about it: none of the A319 of Northwest are leased in the way that they are rented from a leasing company (ILFC, GECAS,...).
Airlines do like you and me (at least me), they borrow money from banks to buy airliners. Until fully paid, the ac remain kind of the bank's property (not exactly, I know).
So the A319s in question were financed by First Security Bank which sold them (the debt) to Wells Fargo Bank Northwest NA, then State Street Bank which in turn, put them up for sale by auction (maybe some of you saw the auction advertisement in Flight International Feb. 28th, 2006).
And Sibir purchased them.
Sibir was initially interested by getting from GECAS 10 A319s returned by United.
Looking at NWA's A319 fleet, they currently have 5 x A319's that are on operating lease with Q Aviation. All were done via a Sale and Leaseback in late 2005. Otherwise, the remaining part of NWA's A319 fleet are on NWA's books.
You are correct in explaining there are two types of leases that are common in aircraft finance. There is a Finance Lease and an Operating Lease.
Finance Lease -
The aircraft is financed by a bank, and the aircraft are owned by a SPC (either controlled by a bank or an orhpan vehicle). The airline makes lease payments (equal to loan repayment) and at the end of a period (usually 10-12 years) after the loan is repaid the airline gets to buy the aircraft at a nominal purchase price. While the legal ownership is with the SPC (makes it easier to repossess in a default), the economic and accounting ownership is with the airline (i.e. the aircraft is on the airline's balance sheet)
Operating Lease -
Ownership of the aircraft is with an Operating Lessor (e.g. ILFA, GECAS, Q Aviation) and the airline makes lease payments for a duration of the lease. At lease expiry the aircraft is returned to the Operating Lessor who is free to remarket the aircraft for the next user. In this case, the aircraft is not owned by the airline but rather the Operating Lessor and accounting wise the aircraft are off-balance sheet.
While other structures exist, these are the two most common ways that airlines can finance aircraft.
Breiz From France, joined Mar 2005, 1815 posts, RR: 2 Reply 24, posted (6 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2678 times:
Quoting TL925 (Reply 23): they currently have 5 x A319's that are on operating lease with Q Aviation.
Interesting, TL925.
Can you indicate which ones?
Thanks in advance.
25 Burnsie28: Wrong, just because they are in bk, doesnt mean anything, if its something that they can use to become profitable, it will be allowed. Wrong again, t
26 Nwafflyer: I've heard, from several pilots - NW, Mesaba and Pinnacle, that the DC-9, even though paid for, is more expensive to operate than the Airbus 319/320 A
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