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Hawaiian Trying To Block Mesa Interisland  
User currently offlineGreg3322 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 205 posts, RR: 0
Posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 2763 times:

http://www.kfwb.com/pages/51639.php

"Hawaiian said it has proof Mesa and its chief financial officer, George Murnane III, misled the U.S. Bankruptcy Court about the use of ``highly confidential'' documents and trade secrets obtained from Hawaiian in April 2004, according to its Wednesday court filing."

12 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offline777fan From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2501 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 2634 times:

I'm not familiar with bankruptcy laws that preclude documents ("trade secrets") from getting out, nor do I have any idea how Mesa would get a hold of them. From this pax's perspective, it sounds like HA is eating lots of sour grapes. Anyone know how go!'s load factors are in the early going? They sure have created quite a splash here in the Islands.


777fan



DC-8 61/63/71 DC-9-30/50 MD-80/82/83 DC-10-10/30 MD-11 717 721/2 732/3/4/5/G/8/9 741/2/4 752 762/3 777 A306/319/20/33 AT
User currently offlineHa763 From United States of America, joined Jan 2003, 3660 posts, RR: 5
Reply 2, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 2554 times:
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Quoting 777fan (Reply 1):
I'm not familiar with bankruptcy laws that preclude documents ("trade secrets") from getting out, nor do I have any idea how Mesa would get a hold of them.

Mesa signed an agreement as a prospective investor that allowed them access to the sensitive information. The agreement contained a non-competitive clause, which according to the article was for a period of two years. In 2005, Mesa announced their intention to start interisland service.


User currently offline777fan From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2501 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 2523 times:

Quoting Ha763 (Reply 2):
Mesa signed an agreement as a prospective investor that allowed them access to the sensitive information. The agreement contained a non-competitive clause, which according to the article was for a period of two years. In 2005, Mesa announced their intention to start interisland service.

Interesting. What a coincidence that HA brings up the "competition" a few weeks after it's started up! Mesa's (go!) start up has been in the works for some time, which, in theory, gave HA plenty of time to prepare for the added competition. FWIW, Mrs. 777fan and I are flying HA to/from the Big Island over the holiday weekend.

777fan



DC-8 61/63/71 DC-9-30/50 MD-80/82/83 DC-10-10/30 MD-11 717 721/2 732/3/4/5/G/8/9 741/2/4 752 762/3 777 A306/319/20/33 AT
User currently offlineAloha73G From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2362 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 2507 times:

HA filed this lawsuit months ago.....almost immediately after go! announced their plans. I am sure that as soon as someone at HA read the report from go! in question they filed the suit. I also remember that Ornstein (or another executive from Mesa) reffered to the "information" they were able to view during the HA and AQ bankruptcies which made them sure that interisland was a good business. I think HA has the upper hand here. It wasn't two years between them getting the info and starting up....they agreed to two years. If I was HA I would be pissed too!

-Aloha!



Aloha Airlines - The Spirit Moves Us. Gone but NEVER Forgotten. Aloha, A Hui Hou!
User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9642 posts, RR: 52
Reply 5, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 2396 times:

This definitely is not just sour grapes by Hawaiian. This is about a questionable business practice. I definitely think that it is possible that Mesa saw something when they looked at Hawaiian's financial report and could have decided to compete directly with Hawaiian rather than become an investor. SEC filings to begin with have a ton of information. You can get a lot including information about how routes are performing, fleet planning, route planning and overall financial health of any publicly traded airline. But bankruptcy filings would have to have everything possible. The article references that Mesa executives would have read about Hawaiian's advertising and pricing strategy through 2008. That is a huge competitive advantage to know. I definitely see justification in Hawaiian going after Mesa to prevent them from directly competing since they were given an unfair advantage.


If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineGGpillow From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 2316 times:

then why weren't these documents presented in the original filing back in April against Mesa? Why were they just "now" discovered?

User currently offline777fan From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2501 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 2149 times:

Quoting GGpillow (Reply 6):
then why weren't these documents presented in the original filing back in April against Mesa? Why were they just "now" discovered?

This is the point I was trying to make (but obviously wasn't clear about it). I'm a big fan of HA but, it appears as if they were waiting to see how viable go! would be before deciding what to do. If go! hadn't stolen some of their thunder (albeit temporarily, in part to their ridiculous fares), I doubt they'd even care, but, they (go!) must be doing pretty well to have illicited this response.

Where to AQ stand in this? Did go! have a look at their records while they were in chapter 11?


777fan



DC-8 61/63/71 DC-9-30/50 MD-80/82/83 DC-10-10/30 MD-11 717 721/2 732/3/4/5/G/8/9 741/2/4 752 762/3 777 A306/319/20/33 AT
User currently offlineHa763 From United States of America, joined Jan 2003, 3660 posts, RR: 5
Reply 8, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 2094 times:
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Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 5):
The article references that Mesa executives would have read about Hawaiian's advertising and pricing strategy through 2008. That is a huge competitive advantage to know.

This is the answer Ornstein's question about the competitive advantage Mesa got. It doesn't matter that he didn't see the documents himself, because his CFO certainly did get to see them. Ornstein doesn't make all the decisions by himself. I would assume he has to consult with others in his company, especially his CFO.

Quoting GGpillow (Reply 6):
then why weren't these documents presented in the original filing back in April against Mesa? Why were they just "now" discovered?

Because this is a new filing since the first one was denied. They have been collecting more evidence to prove their claims and now that they have what they think is good evidence, they have re-filed.


User currently offlineAloha73G From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2362 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 2041 times:

You can read Hawaiian's filing here:

http://hapeople.com/news/ExecutiveCo...ion_for_Preliminary_Injunction.pdf
**Confidential parts not shown**

It is a pretty strong case if you ask me. Not only did Mesa COPY verbatim from Hawaiian's confidential documents, but they obvioulsy LIED about it under oath.

I read the entire filing, and I would predict Hawaiian will win. The case law seems to be on their side (atleast the cases they chose to cite).

-Aloha!



Aloha Airlines - The Spirit Moves Us. Gone but NEVER Forgotten. Aloha, A Hui Hou!
User currently offline777fan From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2501 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 1979 times:

Amazing how HA and AQ always manage to quash the competition...one way or another. Enjoy the low fares while they last - it'll be back to $165 interisland R/Ts in no time!


777fan



DC-8 61/63/71 DC-9-30/50 MD-80/82/83 DC-10-10/30 MD-11 717 721/2 732/3/4/5/G/8/9 741/2/4 752 762/3 777 A306/319/20/33 AT
User currently offlineBluewave 707 From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 3152 posts, RR: 6
Reply 11, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 1940 times:

On go!'s media day, before its launch, Orenstein replied to a TV reporter's question about the suit, that he wants to settle out-of-court, and turn the legal fees over to a charity.

Draw your own conclusions ...



"The best use of your life will be to so live your life, that the use of your life will outlive your life" -- D Severn
User currently offlineTVNWZ From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 2388 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 1867 times:

Quoting 777fan (Reply 10):
mazing how HA and AQ always manage to quash the competition...one way or another. Enjoy the low fares while they last - it'll be back to $165 interisland R/Ts in no time!

Okay, you run HA. What would you do? Sit back and let them slap you, or fight back? I would do everything I could to protect my business, including suing the bastards.


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