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Frontier LAX-SFO Any Updates?  
User currently offlineNopeotone From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 158 posts, RR: 0
Posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 6300 times:

I read that the FRontier service from LAX-SFO is starting soon.
Does anyone know how it looks so far or any projections on its load factor?

With some other airlines offering that and OAK-LGB, will this work for Frontier?

96 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSilverstreak From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 281 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 6289 times:

Dunno - Today, I did see from Hwy. 101 a Frontier "baby" at SFO starting to roll out and wondered where it was going.

User currently offline3201 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 6272 times:

Started today, according to this trip report (which has to be one of the faster-posted TR's for a new route ever).

User currently offlineAS739X From United States of America, joined Apr 2003, 6150 posts, RR: 23
Reply 3, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 6145 times:

Started today! F9 had food and beverage at gate 38 set-up. They seemed busy when I was over in that area around 800pm, though they had a DEN flight at 845p. Let you know what I hear locally, but I'll be on it ALOT!

ASLAX



"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
User currently offlineA330300 From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 172 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 6076 times:

Loads were light on the first flight out this morning from SFO, but picked up a bit later in the day. Speaking at the press conference today were Andrew Hudson from Corp Comm, and Chris Collins, SVP of Operations. The loads are characteristic of a maturing route, and are good through the holiday week.

At gates 31 and 33, thwere were the walking seats, a string band, and food setup for our customers...nice turnout from F9 employees.  Smile


User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26501 posts, RR: 75
Reply 5, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 6022 times:

Quoting Nopeotone (Thread starter):
With some other airlines offering that and OAK-LGB, will this work for Frontier?

Um, a lot more L.A.-Bay routes are offered than LAX-SFO and OAK-LGB. That aside, I did see a billboard on Manchester Blvd. for their $59 OW fare on the route.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineEmSeeEye From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 508 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 5775 times:

Does anyone have any updates so far this week on how this route is performing?

User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9651 posts, RR: 52
Reply 7, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 5750 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 5):
Um, a lot more L.A.-Bay routes are offered than LAX-SFO and OAK-LGB. That aside, I did see a billboard on Manchester Blvd. for their $59 OW fare on the route.

A lot of routes from the Bay Area to the LA area are offered since both metro areas have a fair number of airports. The benefit of flying SFO-LAX for Frontier is that Southwest does not serve SFO. F9 is only competing with United and American for the most part. WN dominates flights between the areas with hourly flights between OAK/SJC and LAX and tons of flights to other airports like BUR, ONT, and SNA. jetBlue flies OAK-LGB which has no WN competition.

I hope this can work for F9, but I can't imagine that the yields will be that high, but load factors should be high.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineAzstar From United States of America, joined May 2005, 620 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 5732 times:

This week load factors around 20%. Most flights have 20-40 passengers, but some have fewer than 10.

User currently offlineStl1326 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 496 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 5695 times:

Quoting Azstar (Reply 8):
This week load factors around 20%. Most flights have 20-40 passengers, but some have fewer than 10.

Wow! I hope things pick up for Frontier or else this will probably be another shuddered route for LAX. There is a lot of competition on the short haul routes on the west coast especially when you got southwest running multiple daily round trips.


User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21532 posts, RR: 59
Reply 10, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 5630 times:

Quoting Azstar (Reply 8):
This week load factors around 20%. Most flights have 20-40 passengers, but some have fewer than 10.

Ouch. With such a saturated market, it might be harder than they expected to even alert people who fly it regularly to the new option. People get set in their ways about who they fly when they do it often.

I hope people wise up. i plan to fly this route, but I might not have time before they cancel it!



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineEmSeeEye From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 508 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 5599 times:

This is just one week and this is a route catered to businesses. Its probably a bad week for business travelers...

User currently offlineLaxintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25431 posts, RR: 49
Reply 12, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 5565 times:

I'm sure Frontier will hang on for a while, but its certainly a challenging market to be in.

UA has LAX-SFO pretty much locked up, with AA running a few services in between. SWA has incredible strenght connection the various Bay and SoCal airports excluding SFO.
UA, SWA and AA all have strong frequent flyer bases in the markets. All this while Frontier does not have much name recognition in either market certainly not when one thinks intra-CA flying.

A thing to also consider is that DL on two separate occasions since having taken over the Western franchise tried frequent LAX-SFO service to only withdraw.

Going against UA between its to California hubs and having SWA being the #1 intra CA player does not make things easy for Frontier.
Basically what does Frontier compete on? Fares UA has matched, frequency its not even close to UAs offering. And I doubt they get people just because of having TV on a 50min flight.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4841 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 5565 times:

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 10):
it might be harder than they expected to even alert people who fly it regularly to the new option.

I think F9 didn't advertise it enough, so a lot of people weren't aware. We were on the road to Frisco Saturday, and back down to LA on the morning of July 4. I was straining to catch a glimpse of an animal taking off or on approach, but no such luck.



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineTravelin man From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3505 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 5544 times:

Beyond a billboard near LAX, Frontier has done little to no advertising here in LA as far as I've seen. Have they even done newspaper ads? I haven't seen a television commercial.

They're going to have to try a little harder, because as has been mentioned, AA, WN, and especially UA have fairly entrenched frequent flier base here in SoCal (and NoCal as well). Given that there are many business travelers on LAX-SFO, they are also going to have to distinguish themselves on something besides price, because quite frankly business travelers are the LEAST price sensitive travelers out there.

I think there is opportunity, but it won't just "come to them". They're going to have to beat the drums about their new service.


User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 15, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 5498 times:

I still dont understand why Frontier has thrown itself into this market - what do they possibily have to gain? So much competition, so many flights, so many airports.....Los Angeles-San Francisco is one of the most complex routes in the nation due to the number of airports serving each area and the frequency of departures.

Frontier is a very good airline with clever management.......what are they thinking with LAX-SFO? There must be better opportunities elsewhere.


User currently offlineLaxintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25431 posts, RR: 49
Reply 16, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 5489 times:

Quoting Travelin man (Reply 14):
Have they even done newspaper ads?

They've had some adds in the LA Times. About 2 weeks prior to the start up even had a one page add promoting the $59 fare.
Still however agree not much exposure getting the name out.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20642 posts, RR: 62
Reply 17, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 5465 times:

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 16):
Still however agree not much exposure getting the name out.

Does anyone else recall how WN first advertised their LAX-OAK service? They ran a couple of radio ads touting a free one-way ticket anywhere they fly with the purchase of any one-way on the new route, even on discounted tickets. An agent simply handed out the fully-transferable certificate as you boarded.

When I heard it, I was on the freeway. I literally pulled off to the first exit, called my travel agent, and had her make multiple bookings every day that I could do two round-trips per day. At the beginning of the promotion, people were hiring day laborers to fly en masse with them, and near the end of the promotion, people were camping out at both LAX and OAK to get a standby seat. It was major news in the newspapers and on TV.

It's hard to make an impression intra-California, but it can be done.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineLax44 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 62 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 5410 times:

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 13):
Basically what does Frontier compete on? Fares UA has matched

What were the UA/AS/AA fares before Frontier entered the market?


User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21532 posts, RR: 59
Reply 19, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 5381 times:

It's only been a few days, obviously, and a holiday, so it's not the end of the world, but still, those loads are low.

They sent discount information to FF members about the route, but since there likely that many F9 FF members in LAX or SFO, this is more preaching to the choir, as they say.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4841 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 5346 times:

Quoting Lax44 (Reply 18):
Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 13):
Basically what does Frontier compete on? Fares UA has matched

You took Laxintl's words and quoted me.



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineLaxintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25431 posts, RR: 49
Reply 21, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 5211 times:

Fares LAX-SFO have been in the low/mid $200 range recently especially with fare increase which have stuck.

Frontiers introductory fare in the market has been $59 each way. This is to expire at the end of July. Will be interesting to see if it gets extended.

United in the mean time has added a few $59/$69/$79 fare buckets matching Frontier.

With UA offering 15+ daily flights plus AA's 7 combined with both having strong frequent flyer followings will be interesting to see how Frontier makes out.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25291 posts, RR: 85
Reply 22, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 5075 times:
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Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 15):
Frontier is a very good airline with clever management.......what are they thinking with LAX-SFO? There must be better opportunities elsewhere.

If they ever intend to have a presence on the West Coast, then this is a fairly important route. Don't you think?

Assuming LAX-SJD is (finally) approved - despite Delta's tantrum - that will change the equation slightly, as would any other route from either SFO or LAX that they add.

And I note that Frontier is appearing as the connector for a number of airlines who have service from LAX or SFO - but not both.

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 21):
will be interesting to see how Frontier makes out.

Yes, indeed. And I would think it will take a while. But with load factor records falling every month - 85% plus in June, their highest ever - they can possibly afford to nurse SFO-LAX for a while.

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/060706/lath114.html?.v=36

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineIowaman From United States of America, joined May 2004, 4404 posts, RR: 6
Reply 23, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 4964 times:
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I thought F9 had learned their lesson in LAX?


Next flights: WN DSM-LAS-PHX, US PHX-SJD.
User currently onlineMSYtristar From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 6570 posts, RR: 50
Reply 24, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 4938 times:

Quoting Iowaman (Reply 23):
I thought F9 had learned their lesson in LAX?

Apparently not; but, give them credit for trying. They have to try to get away from the DEN-centric operation if they want to really grow the airline. Only so much capacity can be added at one airport. This is why LCC's like FL and to a lesser extent B6 have been (historically) successful...lots of "focus cities" in addition to a central main hub.

F9 has been a low frequency carrier to most of the outstations, which makes it more difficult from a marketing standpoint to get their name out there.

They HAVE to promote the hell out of LAX-SFO if they want to see it succeed.


25 N1120A : Actually, LAX-SFO is a rather higher yielding route. The market really isn't saturated. It is much like Hawai'i in that it isn't really difficult to
26 Mariner : It depends what you think the lesson is, and what should have been learned. To my mind, the mistake was not the establishment of the LAX focus city.
27 Ikramerica : What I meant is that with so many airlines flying between the two markets (all the various airports), people who fly it often know which airline they
28 Coronado990 : My opinion is that F9 is going after the circle trips. I other words, business travelers that need to do business in both cities and want to keep ever
29 Post contains images Mariner : Agreed. Or - SFO-SAN-CUN perhaps? mariner
30 Laxintl : And how many could that be a day?? 10-20?? I really dont see many people wanting DEN-SFO-LAX-DEN, to even come close to make a difference for 5 daily
31 Ikramerica : I think it unlikely. So many of the businesses are between LAX and SAN that people fly into LAX and then drive to them. I can't imagine there is enou
32 N1120A : Yeah, that is indeed their biggest problem. Other than the La Cienega billboard, you would have to be an A.netter to know F9 opened the route.
33 Post contains images Mariner : This is what everyone said last time. So - how did the 80% load factors LAX-STL happen? Were they all a.netters? mariner
34 Coronado990 : I've dealt with clients out of DEN and making the circle trip was quite common. Right now most passengers that make the circle trip will fly UA becau
35 N1120A : There is a lot less choice for LAX-STL than for LAX-Bay.
36 Mariner : I am not sure what difference that makes. Most people here - a.net - claimed lack of advertising was the problem with Frontier's focus city last time
37 N1120A : Then they shouldn't have pulled them. For a carrier like Frontier, building revenues and traffic should be at the forefront of their planning, not yi
38 UAL777UK : UA has so many passengers shuttling between LAX-SFO-LAX, connecting to Asian and European flights its hard to know how F9 are going to make a go of th
39 Mariner : The load factors were good, the yields were not. However, I do agree. As I said: But I am bemused by: I think that is what they do. (a) they have sev
40 N1120A : If it is, they should never have axed anything at LAX other than LAX-MSP They do, but I was looking more at the overall situation and agreeing on you
41 MSYtristar : I'd say that route hit 80% just by random people browsing through Orbitz and Expedia (etc.) to try to find the lowest fare option between the two cit
42 Travelin man : Actually, last time F9 DID advertise on TV in the LA market. I remember the "talking tails" commercials (where the various animals on the F9 tails sa
43 Post contains images Mariner : Actually, LAX-STL hit 84% at one point, and those travellers must have been browsing for LAX-MCI as well because that also had good load factors. And
44 Dutchjet : And F9 dropped the route with an 84% load factor? For that to happen, the yeilds must have been impossible - was F9 giving the seats away? I know tha
45 MaverickM11 : Ridiculously low fares.
46 Mariner : Two completely separate issues. The 84% figure was reached and was used by me to show that people knew of the service. That was a summer months figur
47 Dutchjet : Thanks for the interesting analysis, as usual. You raised several issues that I did not consider....the information about dropping LAX services to pro
48 EmSeeEye : Kind of a cheap shot dont you think?
49 Mariner : Why? It is what he said. I agree with him. So I'm not sure how agreeing with him is "a cheap shot". mariner
50 MaverickM11 : Says who?
51 Mariner : Frontier's CEO. At an AGM. Unless, of course, he was lying to the stockholders. In which case, you should immediately contact the SEC mariner
52 Post contains images MSYtristar : Wow, the bait has been thrown out, and i'm just the fish to catch it! Granted it was probably a tough call. But what F9 did not take advantage of was
53 EmSeeEye : I think they have owned up to making the mistake of too many transcons but your "or was it distracted?" comment seemed to be a rather cheap shot. Beg
54 Mariner : To assume that I would take a shot at anyone with an ADD condition is a breath-taking assumption on your part, since I have a mild version of ADHD my
55 MaverickM11 : Do you have the actual context or is this from memory?
56 MSYtristar : I think they could have done both. I never said that CUN didn't make financial sense for the airline. But they could EASILY be flying down here with
57 Mariner : It was recorded, I'm sure it is in the archives somewhere. How are those DEN-FAT loads of Frontier doing? mariner
58 Post contains images MaverickM11 : I'll chalk that one up to memory unless you can provide the context. Great! Just 29 percentage points worse than UA's DEN/FAT as of Mar 06.
59 Post contains links Mariner : Or you could bother to do some research. Really? March 2006? So - do I believe you - or Fresno Airport? http://www.fresno.gov/flyfresno/load...0LOAD%
60 MaverickM11 : I meant average load factor as of March 06 as in from the start of operation through March 06. You have no idea.
61 Mariner : I really have no idea why you would make that complex statement, since the orginal post, in the original thread, was that the load factor had grown.
62 MaverickM11 : There was this from yahoo news: " the disappointing financial performance of this focus city, which contributed significantly to our loss, led us to
63 Post contains links Mariner : "Of this focus city...." You don't put a date, but since it refers to the August figures, I assume that it was that first August when the disastrous
64 N1120A : Transcons use less fuel per seat mile than short hauls. JetBlue's problem wasn't having too many transcons it was not gearing their cost structure to
65 Mariner : I can only go by what Mr. Neeleman has said as to the reasons why JetBlue is not adding so many transcons. mariner
66 N1120A : Well, Mr. Neeleman needs some excuse for the worsening performance of the airline. Actually, if you look at what they are doing, they are adding a lo
67 Ikramerica : Yep, remember those ads on LA TV. I liked them, they stuck with me, and were in fact one reason I considered them and flew them on a last minute flig
68 MaverickM11 : "We saw other opportunities" is a euphamism for "it sucked". Again, I said through March 06. I haven't seen the official numbers for April and May ye
69 Mariner : I don't dispute that. However, LAX-MCI and LAX-STL did not - originally - totally suck. Or why did they retain them for a year, when they had cancell
70 MaverickM11 : Normally I'd use an "arcane" average of the last twelve months. However in my two second glance at F9 vs UA performance in the market I just averaged
71 Mariner : The danger of two second glances, perhaps? It took me more than two seconds to remind myself how long Frontier had been at FAT - since 2004 or 2005.
72 Post contains links FATFlyer : " target=_blank>http://www.fresno.gov/flyfresno/load...s.asp Correct, F9 has done very well the last 2 months at Fresno. In fact I posted that info i
73 MaverickM11 : Nope--doesn't change the fact that in those first seven months F9 was almost 30 percentage points behind UA.
74 FATFlyer : Hhhmmm. Let's see. F9 vs. UAX load factors. I'm not sure what numbers you are using but FAT puts out their reports with all of UAX's flights combined
75 MaverickM11 : DOT stats. DEN/FAT runs a very high load factor, around 90, whereas LAX, SFO, and the prop stuff run much lower load factors in the low 60s/high 50s.
76 Post contains images FATFlyer : But DOT has only released through Q3 2005. That would be 1 month of Frontier info. That sounds like you are comparing Frontier loads from the FAT rep
77 MaverickM11 : The DOT data currently goes through March 2006; F9 has been flying DEN/FAT since September 2005. That's seven months. My guess is yes, without knowin
78 Mariner : But not in March. And not in April. And not in May. Your claim may be, in itself, accurate - but it does not paint an accurate picture of what is hap
79 N1120A : An aircraft flying within its range band, where it bulks out on passengers and cargo and can still fly the route, is not losing that "marginal" benef
80 FATFlyer : Right, I was thinking of the airfare data. I'll have to update my T-100 database, been too busy to play with the numbers so I haven't bothered for a
81 MaverickM11 : I don't know how many other ways I can state that I only looked at data through March 06. I'll do that right after you explain your blissful detachme
82 Mariner : I understand that. Which doesn't resolve the problem of March. Your average would lead anyone to assume - which was your clear intention - that Front
83 MaverickM11 : ...which, without a doubt, is 100% true for the first seven months of operation.
84 Mariner : I doubt that I would base any present claims or forward decisions on that information. mariner
85 FATFlyer : However as I said before most businesses realize that a market takes time to develop. The problem is only if it doesn't develop or takes longer than
86 Mymorningsong : I flew SFO-LAX on F9 recently. I didn't realize that UA and AA had dropped pricing to match. A quick check of my booking system showed AA @ 259 RT an
87 EXAAUADL : I have to honest. I think F9 has either run out of gate space in DEN, doesnt have enough new market opportunities from DEN or this is a stupid retalia
88 Post contains images MaverickM11 : You're asking the wrong person. Mariner brought it up in this thread and I think I've mentioned it in one other thread. Yeah, I've seen those airport
89 FATFlyer : Sounds like thats politics not business. I just know the industries I consult in deal with numbers that are not 100% accurate all the time. Statistic
90 Mariner : Be funny if they went mainline and put the A318 on the route. But then again - the RJ's are owned and operated by Horizon, with Horizon staff, config
91 EmSeeEye : I wonder if a 318 would attract more pax as opposed to the CRJ.
92 Post contains images Mariner : Difficult to know, a sort of chicken and egg situation, I guess. DEN-FAT started slowly and has built. DEN-DAY and DEN-GEG have both gone mainline fo
93 MaverickM11 : They have so many high yield business passengers that they need to subsidize additional competition? There is no answer. I can't help it if every cri
94 Mariner : Oh, that's just silly. I know you are more intelligent that that. Anyone who happily admits they sell Frontier stock on bad news is hardly taking cri
95 Post contains links FATFlyer : Historically they match to the DOT figures that Maverick used. At DAY weren't they the only westbound flight? LOL, spinning what I said? No, they los
96 Post contains links and images Mariner : Yes, and that certainly helped. As a collector of airline trivia, here's a curious little stat that I didn't know: http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/060710
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