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New AMS When Netherlands Flooded?  
User currently offlineAviationfreak From Netherlands, joined Nov 2003, 1166 posts, RR: 41
Posted (8 years 1 month 23 hours ago) and read 3078 times:

I hope this never comes true but considering the fact a third of the country is below sealevel and the elevation of AMS is -11ft I was wondering where a new AMS would be developed if such a catostrofe would ever happen.
Most probably what would remain of the Netherlands will end up as one big city as a significant percentage of 17 million Dutch needs to be moved to higher grounds in the East and the South East of our tiny country.
This would of course mean that AMS is lost. Would EIN or MST be developed to be the new gateway? The latter doesn't seem to have enough space to grow. An entirely new airport maybe? Or would we completely depend on airports like BRU or DUS?

Sander


I love both Airbus and Boeing as much as I love aviation!
23 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineJoost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3164 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (8 years 1 month 22 hours ago) and read 3026 times:

 Smile Nice thoughts but made me laugh a bit. When it happens, I would imagine one would have other problems first.

Although this is not really relevant for the forum, I feel I should tell a bit more about water management in the Netherlands and the real dangers. Totally different than you would think, the real danger with respect to water is not coming from the sea, but from the rivers. If the country will ever be flooded, it will be from the inside, and not from the outside.

A 'catastrophe' from the seaside is highly unlikely to happen. It happened in the winter of 1953. Already then, it was the result of a combination of factors that hardly ever occurs, but it happened. Since then, the Delta project has been started, and this project is way larger than only the famous dikes in Zealand, it concerns the whole coastline. The project was finished a few years ago with the Maaslandkering in Rotterdam. (the "horizontal Eiffel-tower") If now the worst case scenario of 1953 happens, the dikes can stand it.

A catastrophe is something you don't forecast, or a few days or hours in advance. This will not happen from the seaside. Yes, sea level will rise and the country will go down (so it works from 2 sides, especially in Groningen (northern party), the soil goes down by about a meter per 100 years due to gas extraction. But as the sea level will rise, so will the dikes. We will increase pumping capacity to keep on par. It's easily to forecast and as sea level does not rise by a meter in just 2 days, it's no problem.

Then, the rivers. It's way more difficult to forecast water flow from the Alps so the Rhine and Maas can rise very much all of a sudden. This is the danger, this we can not forecast too much.

If anything is flooded, it will be first the Betuwe and Rotterdam Rijnmond from the inside. The big risk for a high sea level is not that sea water comes in, but that we can not pump the water out of the inlands to the sea.

Back to aviation: AMS is hardly at any danger, and neither is LEY. It may sound strange, but for MST the risk of getting flooded is the highest.


User currently offlineAviationfreak From Netherlands, joined Nov 2003, 1166 posts, RR: 41
Reply 2, posted (8 years 1 month 21 hours ago) and read 2986 times:

Joost, I don't fear such a catastrophe. I'm not worried at all about our precious AMS and I'm very well aware of the whole watermanagement thing.

My question is pure hypothetical. Even though it is very unlikely to happen, what if... Let's say in this hypotheticall situation such a catostrofe happened years ago and we are now looking at a new gateway for the Netherlands or going to depend on airports across the border.
What I stated in the original post is wrong btw. 2/3 of the country is below sealevel and not 1/3. So only the East/South East remains what would mean the German/Belgium border will be aprox. an hour drive from the new coast.

Sander



I love both Airbus and Boeing as much as I love aviation!
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9170 posts, RR: 29
Reply 3, posted (8 years 1 month 21 hours ago) and read 2975 times:

I just imagined all the yellow licence plates and caravans on the A3 OMG,  alert   Smile

Forgive me that joke, my dear Dutch friends, but I could not resist. That would be a wonderful thing for Niederrhein Airport at Weeze, just across the border. They would finally get the traffic they are waiting for all the time.

As a frequent visitor to the Netherlands I feel quite confident that all fears such flooding will ever happen. The Rijkswaterstraat Department and whoever is responsible to keep the floods out are doing a great job. I would get alerted only when I see a large number of amphibians on Dutch highways.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineKLMyank From Netherlands, joined May 2004, 172 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (8 years 1 month 17 hours ago) and read 2805 times:

Hey PanHAM, where is my bicycle?
Forgive me that joke, my dear German friend....  Wink


User currently offlineBillReid From Netherlands, joined Jun 2006, 990 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (8 years 1 month 17 hours ago) and read 2796 times:

Ik vid dit onzin.

SPL will survive as will the Netherlands.

By the way the rumour is that the Russian Referee was paid off 1 million euros to screw up the dutch team, the idea was to give enough red and yellow cards to both teams to ensure that holland did not end up playing the Polish nation team, I mean german immigrants as there are no good germans in football. But money will buy anything that is why germany is bankupt both finanicailly and socialogically.



Some people don't get it. Business is about making MONEY!
User currently offlineTheSunseeker From Netherlands, joined Apr 2006, 218 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (8 years 1 month 17 hours ago) and read 2785 times:

if it happends we will go to Duesseldorf International,
take off the signs and stick AMSTERDAM SCHIPHOL all over
  

[Edited 2006-07-01 18:47:32]

[Edited 2006-07-01 18:47:45]


RSA: Dont drink and drive - take the train and get mugged
User currently offlinePetertenthije From Netherlands, joined Jul 2001, 3353 posts, RR: 12
Reply 7, posted (8 years 1 month 16 hours ago) and read 2764 times:

I think Zelhem international airport has a nice ring to it? Big grin

It is already well connected with the N315, N330 and the famous Hengeloseweg! There are good public transport links with busline 23 from the mayor cities of Doetinchem and Ruurlo! And perhaps the railline can be rebuild, move the swimming pool and change it back into the glorious trainstation it once was.



(come on, with a thread like this you should not expect a serious answer)



Attamottamotta!
User currently offlineLamedianaranja From Venezuela, joined Nov 2004, 1246 posts, RR: 21
Reply 8, posted (8 years 1 month 12 hours ago) and read 2636 times:

Quoting Aviationfreak (Thread starter):
a significant percentage of 17 million Dutch

It would be a small percentage only as most of us will have drowned

KL's fleet will be partly lost, maybe we can arrange for all the Fokkers to be home and the old B744's?

Then we should get some nice spotting opportunities with the relief force coming in

Anybody read Alistair McLean's Airport? There's your doom scenario.

[Edited 2006-07-01 23:17:55]


I wish that all skies were orange and blue!!
User currently offlineBuyantUkhaa From Mongolia, joined May 2004, 2872 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (8 years 1 month 9 hours ago) and read 2529 times:

Quoting Lamedianaranja (Reply 8):
Anybody read Alistair McLean's Airport? There's your doom scenario.

I had to think about that book as well!

A frind of mine, civil engineer like myself, had to forecast the effects of the enclosing dike of the Haarlemmermeer (the reclaimed area that Schiphol lies in) breaking. The channel around the area is simply not big enough to supply enough water for the whole area to be flooded. It would create a big wet spot but no complete flooding. So, no problem.



I scratch my head, therefore I am.
User currently offlineJoost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3164 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (8 years 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 2289 times:

Quoting Petertenthije (Reply 7):
I think Zelhem international airport has a nice ring to it?

When there is a Zelhem airport, can we see Syntus airlines, operating aircraft with a 26" pitch, no toilets and no F/A's on board?  Wink


User currently offlineLTBEWR From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13040 posts, RR: 12
Reply 11, posted (8 years 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 2244 times:

The premise of the initial poster's won't just happen to AMS or much of the Netherlands, but all over the world. Due to the probable rises in the world's seas from global warming, this could be a very serious problem for many major cities, regions and airports as they are built on, very close to or only a few feet above sea level to the world's oceans and seas. In the NYC area for example, beyond the flooding of much of coastal areas, LGA, JFK are built on tidal waters and EWR border is less than a mile and only a few feet above sea level.

User currently offlineOrlando666 From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 168 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (8 years 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 2170 times:

is this aviation related?

User currently offlineDIJKKIJK From France, joined Jul 2003, 1785 posts, RR: 4
Reply 13, posted (8 years 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 2126 times:

Quoting Aviationfreak (Thread starter):
hope this never comes true but considering the fact a third of the country is below sealevel and the elevation of AMS is -11ft I was wondering where a new AMS would be developed if such a catostrofe would ever happen.

KLM will then fit floaters to all its jets and let them take off from the Ijsselmeer!  Wink



Never argue with idiots. They will bring you down to their level, and beat you with experience.
User currently offlineAviopic From Netherlands, joined Mar 2004, 2681 posts, RR: 42
Reply 14, posted (8 years 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 2003 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 3):
As a frequent visitor to the Netherlands I feel quite confident that all fears such flooding will ever happen. The Rijkswaterstraat Department and whoever is responsible to keep the floods out are doing a great job.

That's what they say all the time but flooding still happens.
Dike maintenance is lagging behind for years and accidents are the consequence which happened in the south and just a few years ago a small village near AMS was almost washed away from the map due to a sudden dike collapse.
The big and most important dikes are probably ok but we have thousands and thousands of little dikes hardly looked after.

Quoting Joost (Reply 1):
Since then, the Delta project has been started, and this project is way larger than only the famous dikes in Zealand, it concerns the whole coastline. The project was finished a few years ago with the Maaslandkering in Rotterdam. (the "horizontal Eiffel-tower") If now the worst case scenario of 1953 happens, the dikes can stand it.

The attitude that lead to disaster before.
Oh....... and the Maaslandkering usually does not work due to various problems.
Just lean back and feel comfy.............  Wink

Quoting Joost (Reply 1):
Yes, sea level will rise and the country will go down (so it works from 2 sides, especially in Groningen (northern party), the soil goes down by about a meter per 100 years due to gas extraction. But as the sea level will rise, so will the dikes. We will increase pumping capacity to keep on par.

For every meter you make a dike higher you probably have to make it 10 meters wider which is where the problem lies.
At some point it simply becomes to heavy and will start to sink faster and faster.
We do not live on solid grounds but on a floating swamp, our country(for a large part at least) is supposed to be under water so to say.
For the people who don't understand, our houses have to be supported by large poles to ancker them in a layer of sand 10 to 30 meters below depending where you live otherwise your house would simply sink.

I am sorry Joost, although I do agree danger comes from the rivers in the first place(because those dikes have been wasted the longest) I do not agree with your attitude.
We should always be on alert and never lie back !
To prove my point and turn the topic back to aviation one of my very own photos.

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Willem Honders



Have fun and keep your feet dry,
Willem........ who already started to make friends in Germany.
I hope you win guys Big grin



The truth lives in one’s mind, it doesn’t really exist
User currently offlineTom in NO From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 7194 posts, RR: 33
Reply 15, posted (8 years 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 2002 times:

Quoting Aviationfreak (Thread starter):
New AMS When Netherlands Flooded?

If that ever comes to pass, let us know how you did it.....and we'll follow suit. Of course, we'll probably flood again before you all do.....no thanks to the Army Corps of Engineers.

Tom at MSY



"The criminal ineptitude makes you furious"-Bruce Springsteen, after seeing firsthand the damage from Hurricane Katrina
User currently offlineMikefad From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 120 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (8 years 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 1871 times:

Thanks, Joost , for the brief history of the water issues in the Netherlands. Such a small country never ceases to amaze the world w/ it's ambitious and original thinking. A great member of the western societies.
Now , another matter:

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 11):
The premise of the initial poster's won't just happen to AMS or much of the Netherlands, but all over the world. Due to the probable rises in the world's seas from global warming

I sure hope that 30-40 years from now, that people will remember the goofballs who were all yelling "THE SKY IS FALLING , THE SKY IS FALLING!".
I feel the need to apologize for the way some Americans view their world. Isn't it amazing that a country that has sooooo much information available at one's fingertips, would rely on someone else to do their thinking for them.We're too busy watching inane TV sitcaoms and worshiping celebrities to be bothered with fact checking and research.....Everything is based on emotions , not hard facts.........Sad but true.
I guess it's no big deal unless someone is making a serious run at usurping political power via untruths.


User currently offlineJwenting From Netherlands, joined Apr 2001, 10213 posts, RR: 18
Reply 17, posted (8 years 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 1738 times:

Given that Amsterdam would be washed clean and sunk beneath the waves as well, there would be no more Amsterdam airport  Smile

Deelen is large and high enough to be developed into its replacement though, yielding maybe ARN, Arnhem international airport.
And of course there's Twente still, and Beek, Eindhoven, Volkel, and Gilze Rijen.



I wish I were flying
User currently offlineCO738 From United States of America, joined May 2006, 73 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (8 years 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 1724 times:

Can some one please explain to me why build a city below sea level i always wanted to know this


If only you could install an air horn on a plane...
User currently offlinePetertenthije From Netherlands, joined Jul 2001, 3353 posts, RR: 12
Reply 19, posted (8 years 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 1678 times:

Quoting CO738 (Reply 18):
Can some one please explain to me why build a city below sea level i always wanted to know this

The ground is extremely furtile, remember that these cities where founded centuries before agricultural advances like fertilizer. For the same reason the Nile delta hosted one of the worlds first civilizations despite being flooded annually.

Another reason are the transport links. At the time the ship was the premier form of long distance transport. Building near sea gave you access to the "motorway" system of the day.

As for modern day Netherlands, well, with half the country below sea level there really is not that much of an alternative is there?

[Edited 2006-07-04 21:12:05]


Attamottamotta!
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21474 posts, RR: 60
Reply 20, posted (8 years 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 1666 times:

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 11):
Due to the probable rises in the world's seas from global warming

No right minded scientist believes that the sea will rise to such a level to cause this scenario. Will seas rise? Sure. To this level? No.

Quoting CO738 (Reply 18):
Can some one please explain to me why build a city below sea level i always wanted to know this

Land is often scarce and expensive. Free land taken from under the sea is not (though keeping it dry can be). You just need an expanse of very shallow water with earth beneath suitable for building on.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineCO738 From United States of America, joined May 2006, 73 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (8 years 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 1645 times:

I guess there was no common sense centuries ago... funny there is no common sense today!! what advancements! lol i guess doing something like Kansai Airport is goin a little over board eh?


If only you could install an air horn on a plane...
User currently offlineBuyantUkhaa From Mongolia, joined May 2004, 2872 posts, RR: 3
Reply 22, posted (8 years 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 1614 times:

Quoting CO738 (Reply 18):
Can some one please explain to me why build a city below sea level i always wanted to know this

Actually the cities were above sea level when built (with some exceptions, I'll get to those later). The historic part of Amsterdam is still (slightly) above sea level. But most of the land there was peat, which consists of >95% of water (the rest being organic material).



For the sake of agriculture, starting from roughly the 11th-12th century if I'm not mistaken, people started digging drains. What happens if you drain a material that consists basically only of water? It shrinks... As these layers were usually about 5m thick, they ended up subsiding, and the cities with them. Enter the wooden pile foundation - the West of the Netherlands has a stable sand layer at about 15m depth, feasible with the average tree log. (Today with concrete foundation piles the Pleistocene sand layer at 25-30m depth is more popular). First dykes were built to protect the land from periodic flooding.

As if the shrinking wasn't enough, peat was used as fuel in the 19th century.



So entire layers of peat were excavated, and the elevation of the land reached its current level of 3-5m below sea level.





By the 19th century though, dyke builders were confident enough that this excavated land was used to build cities. Quite a few Amsterdam suburbs are built on such land (for example the area where the El Al 747 came down in 1992).

In parallel, reclaiming land became popular. Starting on a small scale in the 14th-15th century on tidal mud flats, in the 19th centuries big lakes were reclaimed (such as the Haarlemmermeer, the area where Schiphol was built).

Before reclamation:


Right after reclamation:
http://www.rootsweb.com/~nldnh/gemeente-atlas/kuyper_nh_haarlemmermeer.gif

Today:


In the 20th century they claimed much bigger areas still, such as the Flevopolder (where LEY lies) which are 5-6 m below sea level.



To show the subsidence over time, see this graph:



So to summarise my answer, essentially the big cities were already there before the land sunk below sea level; and once the land was stable and safe below sea level, you may as well build other cities there as it is the main economic area of the country.

On a final note, areas near the sea but below sea level also exist in the UK, Belgium, Germany and possibly Denmark. But these are all much smaller, and sparsely populated.

For further reading: http://www.fao.org/docrep/x5872e/x5872e09.htm



I scratch my head, therefore I am.
User currently offlineCO738 From United States of America, joined May 2006, 73 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (8 years 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 1608 times:

And here i was hoping for a comical answer, well now that i got my science and historical info for the day onto AIRLINE 6. Thanks for the answers!


If only you could install an air horn on a plane...
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