SBNair3022 From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 110 posts, RR: 0 Posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 9643 times:
Heya this is my first post so if yawl would bear with me here.
I've always wondered why did the Dornier 328-100 go out so fast. I remember seeing them at SBN so often a few years ago, with both Air Wis and PSA. Why did they retire these planes so fast?? Plus, does anyone know how quiet they were? did the 6 blade composite prop help?
SBNair3022 From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 110 posts, RR: 0 Reply 2, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 9589 times:
they cost to much to buy, or to operate? Or both? It seems passengers and crews alike enjoyed the 328.
Flying-Tiger From Germany, joined Aug 1999, 4111 posts, RR: 39 Reply 3, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 9589 times:
Quoting RAPCON (Reply 1): How's this for an answer: $
Basically correct... the Dornier 328 was the last into the market among the 30-seat props (Saab 340, Dash 8-100, Embraer 120). Technologically it certainly was the most advanced, the fastest as well - but the most expensive one, too.
The battle for the Mesaba 30-seater fleet (50+x options) was lost against the Saab 340 because of the price tag, at Continental Express the 20+40 order was lost because CoEx went for the Embraer 145. Only at PSA and Air Wisconsin Dornier was successful (the early Midway Airways) as well. However, as a late comer it had already to start fighting against the upcoming RJs.
In addition it had some bad luck with quite a few customers cancelling their orders:
Air Marshall Islands 2
Air Ukraine 3
Archana Airways 4
Contact Air 4
Cretan Airways 2
EuroCityLine 3
Horizon Airlines 35
Midway Connection 12
Milne Bay Air 2
Tahiti Conquest 1
VIF 5
It was probably Horizon Air´s cancellation which sealed the fate of the turboprop.
Ca2ohHP From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 932 posts, RR: 2 Reply 4, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 9574 times:
Good God, I thought the ATP was a hangar queen....the 328 was ALWAYS broken. Great plane to ride on when it worked though.
DeltaDAWG From United States of America, joined May 2006, 620 posts, RR: 1 Reply 5, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 9574 times:
They have not been retired from US's fleet, just relocated. I still see them flying in daily into GSP. I may be wrong about this but I believe the biggest user of the 328 Jets was ACA when they were still contract operations for DL & UA. I remember flying the 328 Jet's from CVG to MDW, MKE and so on. I really liked them compared to the CRJ's.
I honestly do not know where the ACA jets went other than they had something to do with DL leases or something. However, to answer your question more directly they simply cost too much up front and they cost too much to operate - period. Also, who wants to buy a plane from a company that at the time was obviously sinking and sinking fast - Fairchild/Dornier. AvCraft made a stab at it but unsuccessfully as well. The 428 never came about due to financial situationa nd the 728 program sucking up all available cash.
While it is a great plane just wasn't meant to be I guess!
SBNair3022 From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 110 posts, RR: 0 Reply 6, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 9548 times:
But say with air wis, if they had paid the high price for the 328, and had them in service, why were they pulled from service so quick? as with the PSA fleet, i know they had the largest fleet of them in America, if they had the planes already in service and running what caused them to pull the plug so quickly?
Flying-Tiger From Germany, joined Aug 1999, 4111 posts, RR: 39 Reply 7, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 9548 times:
Quoting DeltaDAWG (Reply 5): They have not been retired from US's fleet, just relocated. I still see them flying in daily into GSP. I may be wrong about this but I believe the biggest user of the 328 Jets was ACA when they were still contract operations for DL & UA. I remember flying the 328 Jet's from CVG to MDW, MKE and so on. I really liked them compared to the CRJ's.
ACA only flew them for DL, never for UA. They had indeed the largest US fleet with 32 frames, 30 for DL flying and 2 for exec ops. Largest operator today is Hainan Airlines (China).
Quoting DeltaDAWG (Reply 5): I honestly do not know where the ACA jets went other than they had something to do with DL leases or something.
Mostly standing at Myrtle Beach as far as I know. However, there are currently some being picked up, mostly for conversion into business / corporate shuttles. Only very few are now in operations with airlines.
SBNair3022 From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 110 posts, RR: 0 Reply 9, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 9357 times:
How are they on fuel compared to other turboprops though? Compared to others lik the S340, and the EMB-120. Aren't the dorniers better?
Ca2ohHP From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 932 posts, RR: 2 Reply 10, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 9328 times:
Quoting SBNair3022 (Reply 6): But say with air wis, if they had paid the high price for the 328, and had them in service, why were they pulled from service so quick? as with the PSA fleet, i know they had the largest fleet of them in America, if they had the planes already in service and running what caused them to pull the plug so quickly?
ZW was operating 3 different aircraft types at the time and were looking to reduce overall costs, and UA was looking to transition ORD turboprop flying to rj's, so it worked out for the time being. It ironically was planned that the 146's would cover a lot of the DEN mountain flying until UA looked to further reduce costs and elected to dump the 146's in favor of CR7's and DH8's out of DEN.
SBNair3022 From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 110 posts, RR: 0 Reply 12, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 9262 times:
So it was the timing as to why the 328 was dumped by both ZW and PSA? the mainline carriers were wanting the regional jets while the express carrier wanted a simplified fleet?
757MDE From Colombia, joined Sep 2004, 1753 posts, RR: 7 Reply 13, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 9166 times:
Quoting SBNair3022 (Reply 9): How are they on fuel compared to other turboprops though? Compared to others lik the S340, and the EMB-120. Aren't the dorniers better?
I don't have exact numbers but they aren't the cheapest to operate. Even so, Satena here in Colombia is quite happy with them and their performance. I think that performance comes with a price...
I haven't flown them but my mom has like three times and even though she's no Aviation nut she's told it's been quieter than most of what she's flown
I gladly accept donations to pay for flight hours! This thing draws man...
Ca2ohHP From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 932 posts, RR: 2 Reply 14, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 9150 times:
Quoting SBNair3022 (Reply 12): So it was the timing as to why the 328 was dumped by both ZW and PSA? the mainline carriers were wanting the regional jets while the express carrier wanted a simplified fleet?
I can't honestly say that in PSA's case, but that was the case with ZW.
SBNair3022 From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 110 posts, RR: 0 Reply 15, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 9133 times:
Awesome! I just always wondered. When ZW first brought the Dornier to SBN i thought it was the ugliest thing ever, but then it grew on me, and I never understood why it disappeared, from the sounds of it, it was awesome when it comes to passenger comfort and noise.
Would it make sense for a new airline to consider this type? or is it still prone to problems?
Visions Airlines out in Vegas uses them, and from the sounds of it is expanding, but Great Plains also operated them for a short time, but they went bust, the 328Jet seems like a money loser on the Great Plains routes, Any input??
Rikkus67 From Canada, joined Jun 2000, 1461 posts, RR: 2 Reply 16, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 9106 times:
it is too bad the idea of the 328J didn't catch on.... The basic design of the 328 turboprop was aerodynamic enough to be fitted with suitable jet engines when they became available. The unfortunate (or fortunate) design flaw, was that the original turboprops couldn't INEXPENSIVELY be converted to jet power. I have often wondered what the fate of the little jet airliner had been like, had there been a complete reengining program, somewhat like when Convair reengined the 240-340-440 pistons to the 540-600-640 series, many of which are still flying today!
SBNair3022 From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 110 posts, RR: 0 Reply 17, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 9013 times:
Would it make sense for a new airline to consider this type? or is it still prone to problems?
Visions Airlines out in Vegas uses them, and from the sounds of it is expanding, but Great Plains also operated them for a short time, but they went bust, the 328Jet seems like a money loser on the Great Plains routes, Any input??
Greasespot From Canada, joined Apr 2004, 3050 posts, RR: 22 Reply 18, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 8932 times:
The 328Jet was terrible. At least engine wise...
The P&W 306B performed terrible in an airline environment. P&W did not even want to build it. It was a Busines juet engine modded into airline service and did not do well.
It had some crazy low (for airline use) TBO when it entererd servce. 2000 hours sticks in my mind.
By the time P&W got it sorted out Fairchild was out of business.
This was relayed to me by a P&W rep when i was in Montreal for PW120 training.
Bu the 328 was the coolest looking Turboprop made. And fast. I rememebr seeing them take off in YOW and then followed by a DASH 8....The dash 8 looked broken it was so slow.....
GS
Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
CF188A From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 19, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 8897 times:
I was under the impression.... that the jet was a break through in regional hops. That little thing powered by a jet! .... i find it a privledge to view at YYZ from time to time ... thanks to MWE
FutureFO From New Caledonia, joined Oct 2001, 3095 posts, RR: 24 Reply 20, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 8855 times:
The climb rate on the 328Jet has an incredible climb rate after departure. THe jets that were placed on it were and are extremely overpowered. AL is the current leader with the 328Jet in the US, operating a fleet of 10. 328 turboprops were ahead of their time as far as the flight deck and comfort. Very nice airplane.
SBNair3022 From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 110 posts, RR: 0 Reply 21, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 8849 times:
how can the 328 prop be ahead of its time on comfort??? if the passengers love it and forget they are on a prop won't they remember it and continue to fly the airline and type?
COERJ145 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1420 posts, RR: 1 Reply 22, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 8840 times:
Quoting FutureFO (Reply 20): The climb rate on the 328Jet has an incredible climb rate after departure. THe jets that were placed on it were and are extremely overpowered.
Ah yes, this brings back memories of my first and only ride on a 328Jet from BOS-PHL on ACA, just months before they became the late DH. T/O and climb were absolutly amazing. Too bad they are all gone from the DLC fleet.
FutureFO From New Caledonia, joined Oct 2001, 3095 posts, RR: 24 Reply 23, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 8798 times:
You know you can forget alot of things as well, when you think very little about a subject. As enthusiasts we pretty much always have things like comfort on the mind. Different stroke for different folks.
GQfluffy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 24, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 8765 times:
Quoting SBNair3022 (Reply 15): it was awesome when it comes to passenger comfort and noise.
I flew on one once from GSO to CVG. Was a decent ride, not too loud, although we left on time out of GSO and got into CVG 20 minutes late...which I'll blame the airport (which I hate) and not the a/c, pilots, or atc.
25 SBNair3022: So do you think the D328 can be operated by airlines looking for turboprops and operate them at the same cost level of the EMB120 and Saab? Or are the
26 Rampart: Interesting, I wondered what happened to the MAX planes. I flew them from COS once WestPac migrated to Denver, and I think at least once on ZW on the
27 Mig21UMD: Horizon did operate the type but only briefly. I recall reading in Airliners mag ( many years back) that the aircraft had too many short falls in ter
28 Mig21UMD: ATR 45??? opps...you know what I mean. (42)
29 SBNair3022: The Dornier cost the same as an ATR? What about when it comes to operations?
30 Mig21UMD: Even if it was a little cheaper to buy, it would only be cheaper by a million or two at the most. When you are talking about possibly getting 20 extr
31 Mig21UMD: BTW SBNair3022, Welcome to Airliners.net!
32 SBNair3022: here another one for ya......so if your flying say 20 people on the dornier on a 150 mile flight, it would cost less to run a dornier with 20 vs. 20 o
33 AvConsultant: What airport and airline were you flying? The only turboprop I've seen use a boarding bridge is the Saab 340. I did not realize there was enought roo
34 Marcus: I had the chance to fly both the 328 and the 328Jet, before flying them I had never seen that plane before..........beautifull, comfortable for a regi
35 Cumulonimbus: I have Been on A US Dash-8 out of PHL that used a jetway. Mike
36 Ptharris: I can tell you why... money money money. The Dornier was an awesome bird, but really expensive to maintain. When I was with QX at the PDX maint facil
37 AvConsultant: Thanks, that's interesting. I sure that looked funny with a boarding bridge attached.
38 SBNair3022: it was SBN where they used the jetway for the ATR. it was awesome since i didnt know they could do that. We also deplaned in ORD via jetway, and it wa
39 AvConsultant: Thanks for the photo SBNair3022. That's a cool picture.
40 Alias1024: The 328Jet was one great ride. That airplane climbed like no other airliner. It was more like an elevator than an airplane. I flew Great Plains (R.I.P
41 757MDE: Here in Colombia Avianca sometimes uses boarding bridges with its F-50s and Aires does so as wellwith their Dash-8s
42 SBNair3022: Great Plaines was an awesome little airline, if only it had stuck with its original plan instead of hopping all over the midwest and southwest looking
43 Alias1024: The 328 killed them. They had trouble finding new jets after Dornier went bankrupt, and two aircraft wasn't enough to cover the overhead. In desperat
44 SBNair3022: just a note, they didnt serve MEM, it was BNA at the east end of the original route.
45 Alias1024: Doh!!! I can't believe I wrote MEM. Yeah, definately BNA. Thanks for the correction.
46 RAPCON: Amen to that! Three weeks ago I took an afternoon flights out of ABQ to DFW, while waiting at the airport you could see the jets just struggling to g
47 Tangowhisky: Like any aircraft program, money and resources must be invested to keep the product fresh and fuel the sales and service departments. In the mid 90's
48 Flying-Tiger: United Express ops by Air Wisconsin.
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