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Varig July 4, 2006  
User currently offlineSampa737 From Brazil, joined May 2005, 637 posts, RR: 1
Posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 8157 times:

According to this morning's Folha (online) Varig has no money and won't make it til August. I don't think there is a lot of new news here but wonder if anyone has anything to date.

How long was it before Pan Am, Braniff, TWA and Eastern finally bled out?

I don't remember TransBrasil or VASP taking this long!

28 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineUalcsr From United States of America, joined May 2006, 485 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 8084 times:

I am sorry for RG, I am sorry for RG employees, I am sorry for contractors who work with RG. However, if we lost Pan Am in the US, Brasil can lose RG. It seems that the Brasilian courts are extending RG's life with the hope that Brasil's historically great airline will somehow survive. But, if there's no money, limited flights, no service, no wages, nothing.........isn't it time to accept it and pull the plug? I really wish someone would pull a rabbit out of a hat and RG would somehow be able to make it, but at this point, it's time for everyone, and most of all, RG employees, to move on with their lives. I'm so sorry for RG.

User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11429 posts, RR: 58
Reply 2, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 8027 times:
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Quoting Sampa737 (Thread starter):
According to this morning's Folha (online) Varig has no money and won't make it til August. I don't think there is a lot of new news here but wonder if anyone has anything to date.

True, Deloitte (Varig administrator) states that the company has no conditions to keep flying (in fact nowadays VarigLog every day made a new deposit to pay Infraero Airport Charges and to buy fuel).

Yesterday a group, with reliable Brazilian investors and Cinzel Partners from US announced that they will made the necessary steps to bid up to US$ 600 million for RG operations.

Varig keep flights to Frankfurt, New York/Miami combined, Buenos Aires, Caracas, Santiago, Lima/Santa Cruz de La Sierra combined and domestic destinations.

Even on shuttle service SDU-CGH Varig reduce the number of flights (in the past a flight every 30 minutes between 6h30 and 21h, nowadays a flight every 90 minutes) and JJ/G3 are very happy (for who dont know, the shuttle service keep one of the highest fares in Brazil, and for sure in the world, around US$ 180 + fares for a 228 miles flight).

Felipe



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineDTWAGENT From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1283 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 7818 times:

Sad day... Another great airline is dieing off....My clients like RG alot and no they will have to take either AR,AA,UA,DL. from the US. My heart goes out to all the employees of RG. Good Luck and my God be with you and your families...

Chuck


User currently offlineDannieFly From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 4 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 7769 times:

My question is why would VarigLog or Cinzel Partners, for that matter, pour money down a lawyer-, creditor-, legal minefield- filled drain?

Brazilian legal experts say that even though legal liabilities for the old VARIG are supposed to be off the table for the new owner (if we ever get one), nothing stops a whole slew of creditors(i.e., pension fund, Receita, INSS, BR Dis. etc.) from suing the new owners for past debts.

Why wouldn't a potential buyer wait until the company acknowledges the reality, or until the judge does the right thing and stop beating this proud, but still dead horse? At that point, there would be no doubt about legal liabilities--they would all belong to the liquidated company.

While VarigLog's efforts appear to be valiant, the goodwill of a somewhat disorganized, and not-so-forthcoming regulator seems hardly worth it.

Right now we all sit and watch as RG employees, creditors, competitors, and most of all Brazilian consumers suffer.


User currently offlineLijnden From Philippines, joined Apr 2003, 564 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 7681 times:
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I love Varig and have flown several times with them. The current economical situation of the past 10-15 years is ofcourse the problem. Other larger airliners from Brazil like VASP and TransBrasil have disappeared as well. Fuel prices (oil based) are not in line with the current currency and local supplies of sugarcane based fuels are only good for cars not planes.

Other problems were the lack of steady partners for many years in the alliance. (UAL had three+ years severe financial problems and BK, asian airliners had to deal with SARS).

It is sad to see an airline like Varig with such a rich history litteraly bleeding to a financial death.



Be kind to animals!
User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 7317 times:

The sad reality of this situation is that, even though RG's problems have been building for years, the Brazilian government has kept RG with a lock on Brazilian int'l services. The lack of competition now is making it much harder to pull the plug on RG now. While TAM appears ready to dramatically expand its int'l operations, the Brazilian government and people will be similarly exposed if there is not a healthy competitor for TAM. Plus, consumers are the real beneficiaries if Brazil has not one but two strong competitors with international operations. A few 787s for Gol?

I don't see how any creditor will agree to continue to allow its assets to remain w/ a RG successor if they cannot recover at least some of the losses they have incurred under RG. People complain about US bankruptcy laws but no US airline has ever walked away from its liabilities and started over with fresh accounts. I don't know of any other major business anywhere in the world that has had a similar deal.


User currently offlineGhost77 From Mexico, joined Mar 2000, 5219 posts, RR: 51
Reply 7, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 7283 times:

Issue here Scolari played with a stupid defensive strategy.. having the most powerful offensive!

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 6):
A few 787s for Gol?

Even if they order, they'll have slot delivery problems! They will have to wait!

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 6):
I don't know of any other major business anywhere in the world that has had a similar deal.

RG could be the first one! Remember that anything can happen @ our loved Latam and RG's never ending soap!

ghooost77 APM



Ricardo Morales - flyAPM - ¡No es que maneje rapido, solo estoy volando lento!
User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 7163 times:

yes, but RG's creditors are not exclusively Brazilian and aren't terribly interested in rewriting the rules of business just for RG's sake.

User currently offlineJetdeltamsy From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 2987 posts, RR: 8
Reply 9, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 6385 times:

Quoting Sampa737 (Thread starter):
How long was it before Pan Am, Braniff, TWA and Eastern finally bled out?

None of those carriers "bled out". Pan Am, Braniff and Eastern all shut down with enough cash to effect an orderly liquidation. Braniff had in excess of $100 million in collectable receiveables due from other airlines. Eastern had $100 million on hand after refunding tickets for future travel.

TWA probably came the closest to collapse. I've heard that they had anywhere from 3 days to 2 weeks of enough cash to meet payroll and fuel bills before American took over their finances.



Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
User currently offlineChris7217 From Hong Kong, joined Nov 2002, 168 posts, RR: 9
Reply 10, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 5289 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
CUSTOMER SERVICE & SUPPORT

Really a sad story about VARIG.

As far as I know VARIG belongs to Star Alliance and was even a founding member.

What is Star Alliance going to do now? Could they offer any help to VARIG?

Chris


User currently offlineDrinkstrolley From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 5186 times:

Why doesn't the Brasillian Government intervene and give them a sub? It seems to happen with all the other flag carriers..........

User currently offlineBennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 7529 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks ago) and read 4827 times:

WorldTraveler

The issue is not in a few years when the 787 is available.

The issue is now.

GOL will need to buy something used, otherwise the competition will soak up VARIG's market.


User currently offlineBennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 7529 posts, RR: 3
Reply 13, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks ago) and read 4744 times:

According to Airfleets, RG had 25 B737, 1 B757, 3 B767, 3 B777 and 4 MD11.

I appreciate that these numbers are fluid, but some/most of these aircraft are available. I also remember the problems that Finnair recently had with a RG MD11, but some of these aircraft would provide a short term capacity boost.


User currently offlineTurbulence From Spain, joined Nov 1999, 963 posts, RR: 20
Reply 14, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 4109 times:

The problem in RG is that for too many years, too many chair people have used too much help money for increasing their own salaries. It is an enormous pity for the employees, but I sincerely think it is time to stop these abuses that were for the benefit of a few dozens of directives. I would agree only in further governement helps if the whole chairmanship was changed, or if somehow JJ was able to manage absorbing fleet and workers.

The old plan of fusioning them, TAM absorbing the debt, the new company keep the name VARIG and the chairmanship being that of VARIG, was an insult to Comandante Amorim, the whole range of TAM staff, and the brazilian contributors.

From suitable and reliable "insider" source, most of the planes have been returned or are to be to the lessors, and all of them have already had their next lease contracts written.

In parallel, and according to the same reliable insider source, JJ has already closed agreements for 33 A32Xs and 6 330s.

I just hope TAM and GOL can manage to employ the most of the VARIG workers affected by this situation.

Enjoy turbulences!!!


User currently offlineLVZXV From Gabon, joined Mar 2004, 2041 posts, RR: 37
Reply 15, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 3485 times:

According to Aerotransport.org (updated 02-Jul-2006), VARIG and its subsidiaries' active and grounded fleets are as follows:

Active

M11s: PP-VTI (World Cup c/s), VTK, VTP - All for UPS, 2006
772s: PP-VRI, VRJ
763s: PP-VTC, VTE (both EuroAtlantic)
733s: PP-VNZ, VON, VOY, VOZ, VPY, VQN, VTA + PT-SSQ (Rio Sul)
734s: PP-VTL, VTM, VTN
735s: PT-MNH (Nordeste)

VARIG: 17
Nordeste: 1
Rio Sul: 1

TOTAL: 19

Grounded

VARIG: 38 (8 x M11, 6 x 772, 2 x 763, 4 x 752, 15 x 733, 1 x 734, 2 x 738)
Nordeste: 5 (2 x 733, 3 x 735)
Rio Sul: 10 (3 x 733, 5 x 735, 2 x 73G)

TOTAL: 53

Are these figures correct, Lipe?

Saludos,

ZXV



How do you say "12 months" in Estonian?
User currently offlineBennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 7529 posts, RR: 3
Reply 16, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 3371 times:

According to Airbus, the 20 A32X will be delivered between 207-2010 and 8 A350 from 2012.

http://www.airbus.com/en/presscentre...eases_items/12_21_05_TAM_A350.html

However, TAM will need aircraft before then.


User currently offlineBennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 7529 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 3349 times:

Sorry, I meant 2007-2010.

User currently offlineA3xx900 From Germany, joined Jan 2004, 335 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 3321 times:

Does anybody have the current international active network of VARIG? What int. flights do they still operate today?


Why is 10 afraid of 7? Because 7 8 9.
User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 3141 times:

Bennett,
I agree that Gol needs to jump into the market quickly but taking on a new fleet type and becoming an int’l carrier is a big step for Gol or any airline but esp. one that is trying to keep its costs down. It’s pretty easy to see what TAM will do but Gol is not as clear cut. They could abandon their low cost domestic approach and become an intercontinental carrier but with lower costs or they could stick to narrowbodies and become a dominant player in S. America. I can’t predict where they will go but while it looks appealing to jump into the intercontinental market now, it may make a lot more sense to gradually build that side of the business while reaping strong profits on the domestic and S. American routes.


User currently offlineJog From Netherlands, joined Jul 2005, 273 posts, RR: 7
Reply 20, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 3077 times:

Quoting Turbulence (Reply 14):
In parallel, and according to the same reliable insider source, JJ has already closed agreements for 33 A32Xs and 6 330s.



Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 16):
According to Airbus, the 20 A32X will be delivered between 207-2010 and 8 A350 from 2012.

http://www.airbus.com/en/presscentre...eases_items/12_21_05_TAM_A350.html

However, TAM will need aircraft before then.

It is already official that TAM will buy 15 A319, 16 A320, and 6 A332 in addition to the A32X and A350 they ordered last year. All new orders are scheduled to arrive until 2010. The first two new A332 will arrive 2007. Until September 2006 TAM will have all three A332 back that are currently leased to EY (used for new service to LHR and for switching JFK to daily night in both directions). For more details have a look at TAM Ordered More 37 Airbus (by Jrosa Jun 29 2006 in Civil Aviation)

[Edited 2006-07-05 18:20:12]

User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11429 posts, RR: 58
Reply 21, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 3057 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting A3xx900 (Reply 18):
Does anybody have the current international active network of VARIG? What int. flights do they still operate today?

GRU-FRA-GRU, GIG-FRA-GIG, GIG-GRU-LHR-CPH, GRU-MIA-GIG, GIG-GRU-CCS-GRU-GIG, GIG-EZE-GIG, GRU-EZE-GRU, GRU-SCL-GRU, GIG-GRU-VVI-LIM-GRU-GIG. JFK and LAX not regular.

My best:

1) Loads on GIG and GRU flights yesterday
2) Aircraft in use
3) News:

a) PP-VRI has been grounded yesterday after RG2205 (MAO-BSB-GIG) and due to this RG8778 has been cancelled yesterday (and forced a big overbooking on GRU-FRA flight). It's confirmed for today. PP-VRJ seems to be grounded on saturday. Probably both has been requested by the lessor.
b) A new auction will take place on July 12 with a mininum bid of US$ 400 million
c) VarigLog paid again Fuel and Airport Usage charges for Varig yesterday.
d) VarigLog today announced they will start to op with 20 aircrafts but their desire is to hit a fleet of 80 planes (no comments on when!)
e) Air France (AF) says it's ready to fly more frequencies from both GRU and GIG.

GIG/SBGL

PUA0803 MVD 0700 CX-PUB PAXS: 170
VRG8936 LIM 0700 PP-VTL PAXS: 095
VRG8920 SCL 0700 OB8936 PAXS: ***
VRG8612 EZE 0730 PP-VOZ PAXS: 028
VRG2204 MAO 0845 PP-VRI PAXS: 115
VRG9990 GRU 0845 PP-VOJ PAXS: 030
VRG2044 GRU 0845 OB9990 PAXS: ***
VRG2342 FEN 0935 PP-VOY PAXS: 108
VRG2251 IGU 1110 PP-VTW PAXS: 109
VRG8942 CCS 1210 PP-VTN PAXS: 079
VRG2316 SSA 1525 PP-VTA PAXS: 075
VRG2250 MCP 1920 PP-VTW PAXS: 061
VRG2343 POA 2015 PP-VOY PAXS: 112
VRG9992 GRU 2030 PP-VTL PAXS: 061
PUA0802 MAD 2250 CX-PUB PAXS: 233

GRU/SBGR

VRG8947 GIG 0630 PP-VTN PAXS: 080
VRG8753 GIG 0640 PP-VRI PAXS: 070
PUA0231 MVD 0655 CX-PUD PAXS: 051
VRG8640 EZE 0730 PP-VTK PAXS: 091
VRG2118 POA 0935 PP-VNZ PAXS: 110
VRG8920 SCL 0935 PP-VTL PAXS: 068
VRG2346 PNZ 0945 PP-VPY PAXS: 106
VRG8936 LIM 0950 PP-VTM PAXS: 118
VRG8880 VVI 0950 OB8936 PAXS: ***
VRG2334 SSA 1020 PP-VTA PAXS: 068
VRG8810 MIA 1030 PP-VTE PAXS: 172
VRG2200 MAO 1100 PP-VOJ PAXS: 135
VRG2251 IGU 1250 PP-VTW PAXS: 081
PUA0223 MVD 1320 CX-BON PAXS: 030
VRG8942 CCS 1405 PP-VTN PAXS: 087
VRG5648 EZE 1500 PP-VOZ PAXS: 082
VRG8902 ASU 1500 OB5648 PAXS: ***
VRG2250 BEL 1745 PP-VTW PAXS: 095
VRG9991 GIG 1850 PP-VTL PAXS: 009
VRG2372 FOR 2115 PT-SSQ PAXS: 126
VRG8756 CPH 2130 PP-VOJ PAXS: 215
VRG8740 FRA 2155 PP-VTK PAXS: 284
VRG8630 EZE 2220 PP-VPY PAXS: 032
VRG8937 GIG 2315 PP-VTM PAXS: 087
VRG2126 POA 2330 PP-VTA PAXS: 081
VRG2170 CWB 2335 PP-VTL PAXS: 095

Other Aircraft in use yesterday:

PT-SSQ - CGH-BSB-CGH-SDU-CGH-POA-GRU-BSB-FOR-BSB-GRU
PT-MNH - POA-CGH-FLN-CGH-POA-CWB-CGH-CWB-CGH
PP-VQN - SDU-CGH-SDU-CGH-SDU-CGH-SDU-CGH-SDU-CGH-SDU-CGH
PP-VON - CGH-SDU-CGH-SDU-CGH-SDU-CGH-SDU-CGH-SDU-CGH-SDU
PP-VRJ , PP-VTI and VTP - Europe-Brazil flights (FRA-GIG, FRA-GRU and LHR-GRU-GIG)

Quoting LVZXV (Reply 15):
Active

M11s: PP-VTI (World Cup c/s), VTK, VTP - All for UPS, 2006
772s: PP-VRI, VRJ
763s: PP-VTC, VTE (both EuroAtlantic)
733s: PP-VNZ, VON, VOY, VOZ, VPY, VQN, VTA + PT-SSQ (Rio Sul)
734s: PP-VTL, VTM, VTN
735s: PT-MNH (Nordeste)

Very close LVZXV!
VRI grounded. VRJ to be grounded soonest, please add PP-VOJ (RG 763) as this aircraft is used on GIG-FRA, GRU-FRA or GIG-GRU-LHR

If i remember any further info, i will post later. Any doubt, feel free to ask!

Felipe



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineBennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 7529 posts, RR: 3
Reply 22, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 2959 times:

The question is who will act in 2006.

User currently offlineJJMNGR From Brazil, joined May 2004, 1018 posts, RR: 15
Reply 23, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 2821 times:

Very poor loads of RG...possible Smiles pax getting rid of their miles? Is anybody still buying RG tkts?

Does anybody believe that this new auction is the salvation for RG?


User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11429 posts, RR: 58
Reply 24, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 2746 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting JJMNGR (Reply 23):
Very poor loads of RG...possible Smiles pax getting rid of their miles? Is anybody still buying RG tkts?

Hi Richard, sales are really poor, in fact very low. Smiles IIRC is limited to 10% of the aircraft but due to several flights cancelled, some flights get 20% and up to 30% of the plane with FF free tickets.
Sales are limited to people that come into the airport and verify that the flight will departure. Due to lower fares, i believe they still sell some tickets.

Quoting JJMNGR (Reply 23):
Does anybody believe that this new auction is the salvation for RG?

Hard to believe, now another plane has been grounded, PP-VTM. Today they cancel also one of the flights to EZE (RG8648 in the afternoon).

Felipe



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
25 Sampa737 : Band News reports today that 77 flights were cancelled as of 16 hours, July 5.
26 Ghost77 : Anyupdate on RG's status? ghooost77 APM
27 LipeGIG : Hi Ghost, i will try to post a new thread with fresh info on Varig status later on. Felipe
28 Ghost77 : Great Felipe! Thanks! ghooost77 APM
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