AAden From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 832 posts, RR: 0 Posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 15877 times:
hi guys
there have been some thoughts on what a/c AA will be replacing it's md-80s with. and I was just wondering is there a possibility of AA placing an airbus order instead of a Boeing?
any input would be appreciated
Atmx2000 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4576 posts, RR: 39 Reply 1, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 15866 times:
What is this mysterious A20?
Seriously, relations between AA and Airbus aren't too hot.
ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
777STL From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 3033 posts, RR: 3 Reply 2, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 15835 times:
Slim and none, and slim's just left the building. With AA's history with Boeing, and after the debacle following Flight 587, I think it will be a very long time before AA begins to even consider Airbus.
In the short term, if AA's acquiring anything in that segment, they'll be taking their options on 738s anyway.
727LOVER From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 5722 posts, RR: 20 Reply 3, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 15835 times:
Before someone mentions that CONTRACT.......it's voided!!!!
Still, the chances are quite remote....unless Airbus was selling them at 70% off the list price. Even then, the technology is getting old and I think AA is looking for newer technology.
727LOVER From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 5722 posts, RR: 20 Reply 5, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 15800 times:
Quoting Mauriceb (Reply 4): which is because both blame each other for the A300 crash 4 years ago in New York, caused by a failing rudder.
EMBQA From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 9286 posts, RR: 13 Reply 6, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 15800 times:
Quoting AAden (Thread starter): there have been some thoughts on what a/c AA will be replacing it's md-80s with.
787engineer From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 572 posts, RR: 16 Reply 7, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 15757 times:
there have been some thoughts on what a/c AA will be replacing it's md-80s with. and I was just wondering is there a possibility of AA placing an airbus order instead of a Boeing?
any input would be appreciated
Taking into consideration the poor relations between AA and Airbus, along with the fact that AA already operates a significant amount of 737NGs, I think there is zero chance (and I rarely make such absolute statements) that AA orders any A320s.
B6sea From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 340 posts, RR: 0 Reply 8, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 15757 times:
Actually it's not a contract anymore it's a gentleman's agreement, which is still very very much in play between Boeing and AA and you can guess what it says... I believe AA said they wouldn't buy non-Boeing aircraft 'til 201x? something along those lines CO and DL have them too....
Sunking737 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1930 posts, RR: 9 Reply 9, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 15721 times:
I know an insider at AA TUL MX. Boeing has a better chance then Airbus. AA is not happy with Airbus.
D L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 10561 posts, RR: 53 Reply 10, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 15612 times:
So, who suggested deletion?
I'll say it again, spelled out this time:
American Airlines is to Airbus as US Airways is to Boeing. Bad blood with the manufacturers because of blame from a crash. AA will never buy Airbus.
Cactus739 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 2380 posts, RR: 33 Reply 11, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 15612 times:
Quoting Sunking737 (Reply 9): know an insider at AA TUL MX. Boeing has a better chance then Airbus. AA is not happy with Airbus.
and I know a girl who works with a guy who's sister dated a guy who's mother in law's 5th cousin flew AA once and knew that AA wasn't thrilled with Airbus......
N1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 25852 posts, RR: 79 Reply 12, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 15573 times:
Nominally, the pilot, for the way he used the rudder. The issue at hand is that Airbus says it was AA's methods of pilot training that were at fault while AA says their pilot training was completely sufficient and that Airbus failed to tell them that the A300 had to be piloted differently.
Quoting Cactus739 (Reply 11): and I know a girl who works with a guy who's sister dated a guy who's mother in law's 5th cousin flew AA once and knew that AA wasn't thrilled with Airbus......
Oooh, looks like someone sampled a bit too much of his work product today
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
Jacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 61 Reply 13, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 15573 times:
IIRC...AA has money deposited with Boeing and they would probably stand to lose money on it.....
Floridaflyboy From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 1985 posts, RR: 0 Reply 14, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 15535 times:
I would have to say there is pretty much NO chance. Airlines do not like to operate the A320 alongside the 737 (with good reason). It would complicate AA's operation to throw in another type. AA is dedicated in and has already made a huge investment in its fleet of 737's.
AeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 18835 posts, RR: 64 Reply 15, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 15535 times:
I'm surprised at all of you. The definitive answer is: No, because they can't fly them to Hawaii!
Cactus739 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 2380 posts, RR: 33 Reply 16, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 15503 times:
Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 15): I'm surprised at all of you. The definitive answer is: No, because they can't fly them to Hawaii!
TinkerBelle From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 17, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 15475 times:
Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 3): Before someone mentions that CONTRACT.......it's voided!!!!
LOL.. Good catch. It was just a matter of time before someone brought that up.
Quoting Cactus739 (Reply 11): and I know a girl who works with a guy who's sister dated a guy who's mother in law's 5th cousin flew AA once and knew that AA wasn't thrilled with Airbus......
AeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 18835 posts, RR: 64 Reply 18, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 15451 times:
Quoting Cactus739 (Reply 16): AA doesn't use MD80's to Hawaii....... duh...
Tom12 From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2005, 1078 posts, RR: 14 Reply 19, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 15451 times:
Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 3): Still, the chances are quite remote....unless Airbus was selling them at 70% off the list price. Even then, the technology is getting old and I think AA is looking for newer technology.
I agree. The A320 series is becoming dated.
I think it would be nice to see another member joining the A320 family with more modern technology, althow can't se that happening with Airbus's financial state.
Tom
"Per noctem volamus" - Royal Air Force Bomber Squadron IX
777STL From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 3033 posts, RR: 3 Reply 21, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 15376 times:
Quoting TinkerBelle (Reply 20): ..and you have to wonder why the A320 family is out-selling the 737 family in the last couple of years!
Also makes you wonder what kind of profit yields Airbus is getting from said A320s.
'The National Transportation Safety Board determines that the probable cause of this accident was the in-flight separation of the vertical stabilizer as a result of the loads beyond ultimate design that were created by the first officer’s unnecessary and excessive rudder pedal inputs. Contributing to these rudder pedal inputs were characteristics of the Airbus A300-600 rudder system design and elements of the American Airlines Advanced Aircraft Maneuvering Program."
A subsequent investigation (into the Air Transat rudder loss) recently raised the possibility that another contributing factor may have been weakening of the rudder structure due to contamination by hydraulic fluid.
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
Stitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 26700 posts, RR: 83 Reply 24, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 15289 times:
Unlike when UA was shopping the 734 vs. the A320, the A320 really doesn't bring anything so compelling vs. the 738 that AA would decide to place a large order for it instead of continuing on with the Boeing product.
Now, if the A320RS pantses Y1, that might change, but for the near-term, AA will continue to add 737NGs.
25 JAL: Why order the A320 when they could order more 737 which they already operates?
26 TWAtwaTWA: AA is a very well run business, and they are not afraid of making tough decisions, like buying non-american planes. If airbus had a great option, AA w
27 AA777223: Don't get me wrong, I'm about as big of an AA fan as I am any airline. I fly them often and am even an elite, but I have to say if they are such a we
28 Ikramerica: Yep. There really isn't anything to debate here.
29 We're Nuts: The days when AA can order everything with 2 wings are long gone. Eventually their fleet will look like Boeing's next generation offerings.
31 Zeke: The pilot, and dragged Airbus and AA in as contributing factors. End result, stop to stop rudder inputs by a pilot on any airliner would result in fa
32 Jacobin777: You only give part of the story..(as usual)..since this thread is about AA, let's run AA's numbers...block hours for AA's 149 seat 737-800 is $2,453
33 DfwRevolution: And you can find any number of industry sources citing better opperating cost for the 738. One of the world's largest Rolls Royce customers is plauge
34 Cactus739: hey we need someone to comment on AA's livery on an A320....come on guys you know you want to....
35 Par13del: Quoting Zeke (Reply 31): "Putting national pride aside" I believe the United States is the largest operator of Airbus a/c, or pretty close to it, make
36 Par13del: Quoting Zeke (Reply 31): "Putting national pride aside" I believe the United States is the largest operator of Airbus a/c, or pretty close to it, make
37 Ikramerica: You ignore cost of replacing one fleet type with another vs. replacing one fleet type with an existing type, that right now, AA is forced to keep MD8
38 777STL: That's not saying much. The US is probably the most advanced country in the world in terms of air travel, heck, look we have 8-9 legacy airlines not
39 HPAEAA: its interesting, because I heard a RUMOR that AA is looking for a buyer for their A300 fleet, the idea is to sell them off and purchase more 772s....
40 Lincoln: I have a quote somewhere that is essentially "If a giant casam opened up in the middle of a runway and sucked the plane in, the NTSB would still find
41 Zeke: Oh please get off your high horse, I backed up everything I said with the source of my information. You have chosen the cheapest 738 operator and ave
42 Jacobin777: taken his own numbers against him...as usual, he spins the story to his advantage... now that would rock!! I still don't think that will happen anyti
43 777STL: The MD80s are more comfortable than the 757s AA currently uses to Hawaii. I've yet to fly on the A300s, but I'd imagine the 757 is the most uncomfort
44 Ckfred: The contract is not voided. It is still very much in effect. The only change to the contract was the removal of the clause that made Boeing the sole
45 Jacobin777: you spun the data to suit your needs(I didn't say you didn't back up anything or were full of hot air)..you know every operator has different costs..
46 Zeke: You seem to lack the ability to read, I will quote myself. No I dont think they will swap, however its is worth serious considering. I did not "spin"
47 Cactus739: I forwarded your suggestion to Johnny O at Mesa and he said they're looking into it already....
48 ERJ170: Sorry, but that was the OLD US Airways. I do believe that the new US still likes Boeing. Though HP phased out all their 737, they refused to give up
49 Dutchjet: It is amazing how this rumor has spun out of control.......there was a rumor posted on another thread a few days ago (I wish that I could remember whi
50 Socal: Not a chance, AA will never buy Airbus.....
51 Dutchjet: The thread was called: AA's MD80 Fleet and its Future, Thoughts? See post 39 concerning the alleged Airbus offer to AA.
52 Cactus739: Really.... you might want to let someone at HP know so they stop flying them around every day then.....
53 N1120A: Not particularly. AirTran decided on the 73G even after Boeing flat out refused to build them a larger 717 that would have better suited their needs.
54 UAL777UK: Yes...after cargo operators i beleive who have a history of picking up older jets. AA's 300's are a disgrace, god knows how much it must cost to keep
55 We're Nuts: They also climb faster and fly higher. The 737 is the best at everything it does.
56 Ward86IND: AA and Airbus are MUCH worse. Things have had a while to cool down with Boeing and US Airways. I bet they will even order 787's. Meanwhile, I'm sure
57 AutoThrust: The A320 dated that would not explain the output (30 Planes a month = 1.5 planes a day!!) of this plane. Soon it will be the highest output of a plan
58 Dutchjet: National pride - AA is a private company. AA flies Airbus airplanes. Some of the largest Airbus operators are US airlines...........how many times ar
59 Keesje: Airbus will probably start delivering A320 Enhanced from 2008. 4-5% more fuel efficient then the current A320. It's also a bit more comfortable, moder
60 AutoThrust: Dutchjet instead other ppl i like Boeing planes and i know they are great. Maybe i wasn't accurate with my explanations. But the system incorporation
61 Par13del: Quoting Autothrust "LOL how biased comment. Just not true the 737NG is about only 1% more efficient and not at every mission and if its the best can y
62 BeechNut: It wasn't the rudder that failed. The entire vertical stabilizer snapped off due to excessive rudder inputs. Beech.
63 AutoThrust: Quoting Par13del (Reply 62): You mean there is actually something the B737 does better than the A320? Sure as i said :Lighter, more range, a bit more
64 DAYflyer: This is completely correct. AA has zero interest in Airbus except to perhaps extract a better price from Boeing.
65 Vfw614: What buyer with a clear mind would effectively rule out buying from one of the two suppliers in a two-supplier market ? The European airline axis of e
66 Stitch: The A320 and 737NG families are pretty much evenly matched. Each has a few advantages over the other in particular area, but nothing outstanding. That
67 ORD2PHL: You ignore the fact that the new US Airways is probably the largest operator of A32X in the world, and what do you know, they finally managed to make
68 Dan2002: Really great acronym there. I can see Airbus using that as a sales pitch. "Our A32x series has the AIDS". Wonderful.
69 RAPCON: Sure! But unless Airbus is willing to sell at a price which AA can't refuse, more than likely Boeing will undercut them and get the order.
70 787engineer: The question isn't whether AA will ever buy any Airbus products. The question is whether or not AA will buy A320s to replace their rapidly aging MD-8
71 Spartanmjf: AA will buy Airbus when the following occurs: http://www.hyscience.com/archives/pigs_fly.jpg
72 Jacobin777: People also forget that AA has "deposits/planes put on hold" with Boeing..unless they want to lose lots of money on that end, they would probably be
73 Keesje: AA will probably take a business like approach. May the best win.
74 Yellowtail: I was waiting and waiting..and no one seems to want to indulge Cactus739..so I'll do it. Man, the AA Livery on the A320 would look like ________ (Ins
75 777STL: Yeah, what do you know, it only took merging with a much healthier airline to do so. I don't think it's even worth debating...[Edited 2006-07-06 18:2
76 Coa747: Have you seen the photos of the line of fracture on the tail assembly. I talked to the chief investigator from American and he said that their concern
77 AutoThrust: I agree this is may not a very important but i never said its a sales pitch, but for example to have flybywire or not to have is one, or choice betwe
78 PolymerPlane: Comparing apples and oranges again. Nice try to spin the truth. from those block hour costs you compare, the average crew cost of A320 is $500, while
79 PolymerPlane: Just as I expected, from the same website, Total block cost :A319: $2,429 while 737-700: $2,109 Fuel cost: A319 $1,042, 737-700: $936 Maintenance: A31
80 Floridaflyboy: It says the boeing product will be developed sometime between 2012 and 2015. It doesn't give a timeline for a new airbus product. How does that add u
81 A342: See here: Not completely new, but certainly interesting. So how exactly would an LCC help to lower the average 737 fuel costs ? What effect do LCCs h
82 N1120A: Nah, that would be the 787 Yeah, that is pretty bad The main point of Fly By Wire is to reduce the weight of the aircraft. In this case, the 737 STIL
83 MalpensaSFO: The A320 series inclues the A318, A319, A321... None of which are in a desert!
84 PolymerPlane: I was under the impression that LCC flies from less congested airports. Less ground waiting time, thus lower fuel burn. Check the 737-700 number and
85 Jetdeltamsy: While little seems to make any sense anymore regarding airlines and their finances, I don't see how AA could order anything in their current financial
86 Keesje: For European carriers flying average 1-1.5 hours this is not the case. Maintenance intervals for A320 are 25% longer (many AMP´s), component removal
87 PolymerPlane: "European carriers" is a very broad term, and I do not know what you are comparing, so if you do not have any data on this one, I will just take it a
88 Stitch: JetBlue did have a number of issues with the A320's computer systems when they first started taking delivery (I read an article about it in a trade m
89 JpetekYXMD80: Why on earth would they do that with their huge 738 fleet and the airbus feud? This makes no sense at all.
90 N1120A: Actually multiple A320s have been chopped The dispatch reliability for the 737 is higher and the thing that everyone talks about when discussing the
91 AutoThrust: Dont agree with this. Fly By Wire is also good for CCQ that's a very important point for sales. If you need much less training time between Aircraft
92 N1120A: By that logic, the training time for a pilot going from the E190 to the 77W should be miniscule, since both aircraft are FBW yoke controlled aircraft
93 WINGS: From what has been mentioned the A320 as spares is actually very valuable, due to the lack of offer in the market. Regards, Wings
94 N1120A: Which would mean that you may as well chop up brand new 777s and 737NGs as well. If you need spares, you can just buy them from the manufacturer
95 WINGS: Wait up just a moment. These A320's are being chopped up because of high life cycles. It's more lucrative for the airline to sell their A320's as spa
96 AutoThrust: Sorry wrong because do the E190 and 77W have almost identical Systems and Flight Deck layout? The key is you need commonality(as Airbusses have) and
97 Trex8: what is this hangup with this AA-Airbus feud?? There was a DC-Airbus feud after the ORD DC10 crash too. I guess AA were so upset for so long afterward
98 PolymerPlane: What does fly by wire have anything to do with commonality? one can design almost identical flight deck such as 757 and 767 without the benefit of fl
99 Stitch: I don't believe there are any 737NGs in the desert, either... And if there are, they also would not be there for economic reasons...
100 Jacobin777: Everyone keeps on forgetting one thing which I've been saying time and time again...AA has DEPOSITS for planes with Boeing...why would they want to lo
101 Contrails: Will Airbus stay in business long enough for AA to replace their Mad Dogs with 320's? I'm not so sure.
102 PolymerPlane: AA does get the best 738 price out there. The cost of ownership per hour is much lower than the average 738 operators. It even beats the cost of owne
103 Coa747: I think that is precisely the point. American feels unlike the US Air 427 investigation in which the NTSB undertook an exhaustive investigation to de
104 Hb88: Regardless of what they do, I have to say that after spending a couple of weeks doing a lot of travel in equivalent classes with BA on the 737, A320 a
105 B6sea: HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA, respected users. But guys, lets be serious for a minute, the day AA goes against their gentleman's agreement with Boei
106 7E72004: Won't happen...they have a pretty hefty boeing fleet so why add to the mix and have airbus and boeing?? It is easier to stick with one company.
107 PlaneHunter: Exactly three aircraft - the term "multiple" may be a bit misleading for many users here. PH
108 PolymerPlane: Not to mention that the A320's windows are so low that it hurts my neck just to look at the view outside, and I am only 173cm. 737 is comfortable eno
109 Keesje: [Uhm, what if the A320 enhanced, uses 4% less fuel, is more comfortable, has higher residual value & is a generation ahead in general? Sorry for bring
110 787engineer: Ok, despite all the reasons AA won't buy A320s (strained relations with Airbus right now, 737NGs still on order, commonality, etc), assuming Airbus g
111 A342: See here: I see the WN 737-700 figures aren't included in those numbers, so the stage lenghts of 737s and A320s here are pretty much on par, while th
112 Zeke: I didn't spin anything, I provided the link to the source, did not vary them in any way. Fuel - AA should have a lower fuel buy price due to the flee
113 Stitch: I too much prefer the Airbus A320 family to the 737, especially the 737 Classic. The 737 Next Generation family is a significant improvement on the br
114 787engineer: Hey, for $24 AA could probably buy enough packs of pretzels/peanuts for a short-haul flight . AA may "consider" the A320E, but they won't actually bu
115 Bob7273757: You will NEVER SEE An AA Airbus order!! EVER!! Take that to the Bank!! End of conversation. Kind of like Continental ordering Airbus!! Ya Think?? Than
116 N1120A: Again, it doesn't matter. You still have to go through full recertification when you change to other types. Now, you may or may not be able to do it
117 Jacobin777: ..dont' be surprised however if you get a comment "get off your high horse" or "grow up"... ..
118 Zeke: Please address those comments to www.airlinepilotcentral.com I did not make the comparison, they did. I just provided the numbers from their site, an
119 N1120A: Dude, it has nothing to do with the Airline Pilot Central numbers. It has to do with you suggesting that the A320 is cheaper to crew than the 738 and
120 Ikramerica: Exactly. If you are going to trot out statistics, you better use them right! Otherwise, they are as pointless as, well, statistics! But, it's Zeke. N
121 Zeke: Can you provide a link that shows that a 737 is cheaper to crew and operate ? Lots of people criticising me, however no one is stepping up to the pla
122 N1120A: I have never seen you praise the 744. The aircraft are equal in cost to crew. It all depends on the pay at the airline. At United, that means that 73
123 WINGS: What does N300 mean? Well that's rather funny. I would have though that the A320 larger fuselage diameter would have a significant difference in comf
124 Zeke: That is not my problem, I have. It was the first quad I flew, I always have a soft spot for it. It is not just wages. Cost if training is also a fact
125 Columba: ...indeed it is funny how some advantages only count for the one and not for the other manufacturer whether it is Airbus or Boeing.
126 N1120A: I have no idea why that post didn't get in there, I could have sworn I completed it. Anyway, this is what it was supposed to say. Again, N300WN has b
127 Columba: 3-3-3 might be an advantage 2-5-2 is definitely not when you are sitting in the middle row.
128 PlaneHunter: "Three" qualifies for "multiple" - but out of total of 1500 flying A320s, "three" is close to nothing. Suggesting "multiple A320" have been scrapped
129 MBJ2000: Kind of like Air France ordering Boeing?! But maybe AF's directors are not that close-minded as their american counterparts...
130 787engineer: Air France operating 744s and 777s is a completely different situation than AA ordering A320s. Although many a.netters may not admit it, but the 737N
131 Aacun: Well, Up to today, this just sounded really weird to me. If you would ask me, I definetely would have said no way to AA getting the A320's. However, s
132 AAL0616: The A320 rumor, and it is just that, pure gossip, may stem, in part, from speculation that Airbus and AAL may be involved in sensitive financial liabi
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