Dutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 58 Reply 2, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 11255 times:
No surprise......actually this is a good thing as the slots can be reassigned to an airline that will seriously order the 787 if those slots have not already been reassigned. The Primaris order was never taken seriously and now its over with.
And I would not count on seeing 20 new 738s being delivered to Primaris either.
TL925 From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 65 posts, RR: 0 Reply 4, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 11067 times:
I would imagine the freed up slots (if not done already) would be given first priority to existing customers over a new customer. I could be wrong though.
Laxintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 22030 posts, RR: 51 Reply 5, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 11025 times:
Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 2): And I would not count on seeing 20 new 738s being delivered to Primaris either.
738 order was cancelled as well.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
Leelaw From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 6, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 10963 times:
Quoting Atmx2000 (Thread starter): The article is titled first 787 cancellation, which is incorrect for two reasons:
Xiamen was the first cancellation and Primaris never placed a firm order.
The editors at the Seattle PI really screwed-up this headline, they obviously didn't read Mr. Wallace's article very carefully before attaching a headline, and certainly aren't as familiar with the subject mater.
Flying-Tiger From Germany, joined Aug 1999, 4111 posts, RR: 39 Reply 7, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 10948 times:
Actually a surprise - and not.
Not because Primaris has been on shaky ground since their order.
A surprise because I had thought that they would try to sell out their positions to other carriers, very well knowing how lucrative their slots are at the moment. An alternative would have been to convert from an airline outfit to a "mostly-lessor" company and lease out these positions. Anyway, Boeing will be quite happy now.
Does this mean that Boeing will have to book 50 cancellations next week? Or has this always only been a LoI/MoU?
Leelaw From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 8, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 10906 times:
Quoting Flying-Tiger (Reply 7): A surprise because I had thought that they would try to sell out their positions to other carriers, very well knowing how lucrative their slots are at the moment
The OEMs always provide in their contracts with customers that delivery slots cannot be assigned by customers to third-parties without their consent. The OEMs much prefer to profit themselves when they've got a hot product.
F14ATomcat From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 88 posts, RR: 0 Reply 13, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 10326 times:
The real question here is to who gets the early slots? Singapore? Quoting the article "Yvonne Leach, a spokeswoman for the 787 program, said the company and Primaris agreed that "it was the right time" to cancel the order." Certainly there was an additional monetary commitment to be made by Primaris.... "Primaris paid Boeing a deposit to hold delivery positions starting in 2010 for the 787s. Primaris would have had to pay Boeing additional money to keep those delivery positions at a time when it needs cash, Morris said." that they were not in a position to make.... and from Primaris Chief Morris "He said the airline is "getting close" to raising the investment money it needs to go forward with a large fleet of leased airplanes." It looks to me like they (Primaris) were going to have to make an additional commitment soon and that delaying the inevitable non-order was no longer to Boeings’ advantage. So somebody will get those slots soon. Let the speculation begin.
Katekebo From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 671 posts, RR: 6 Reply 14, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 10162 times:
Quoting Flying-Tiger (Reply 7): Does this mean that Boeing will have to book 50 cancellations next week?
They were never counted as firm orders, so no cancellations for total orders tally.
The "order" was fully exploited in the 7e7 PR campaign.
"We welcome Primaris to the team. With the 737s and 7E7s in its fleet, the airline will capitalize on the superior economics, fast turnaround times and low maintenance of Boeing airplanes. Both airplanes fit perfectly into the operational cost structure that is proven with successful low-cost carriers," said Bair.
It must be a dissapointment. 20 Off.
Weren't the 2010 slots already to be given away (QF?)
Nyc777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5153 posts, RR: 49 Reply 16, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 10030 times:
There will be quite a few important carriers lining up for those slots. Boeing may have something to say about who gets those slots at Farnborough. Maybe AF or LH or AA!!!!
DAYflyer From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 3807 posts, RR: 4 Reply 17, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 10030 times:
Quoting Keesje (Reply 15): Come lets not downplay this folks.
The "order" was fully exploited in the 7e7 PR campaign.
Yeah, it almost sounded as bogus as a few of the PR spins out of France.
Nudelhirsch From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 1438 posts, RR: 20 Reply 19, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 9926 times:
While they could not sell the slots, they could still sell the airplanes. Or lease them out.
Sure, financing is hard at the beginning, but if I really wanted to have 20 787s I'd consider a deal in which I'd help them to finance the firm orders and deliveries and then take over the planes in return for a decent price tag. Primaris being a launch customer (discount) could have gotten a decent profit, their buyer could have gotten a decent deal on it, and Boeing would have avoided the headline and could actually have firmed up the PE order, which would have surprised me... Sure, Beoing should be better off selling them directly, but still it would have been a win-win-win-situation. Now they can charge premium for the slots or charge airlines to move up their slots, or they can throw that in like a discount. Now it is win-lose-we'll see... (Boeing-PE-buyer)... At least a leasing company could have approached PE and milked them out, then we would have a clear loser, but another winner... lol
VirginFlyer From New Zealand, joined Sep 2000, 4502 posts, RR: 50 Reply 21, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks ago) and read 9519 times:
Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 17): Quoting Keesje (Reply 15):Come lets not downplay this folks.
The "order" was fully exploited in the 7e7 PR campaign.
Yeah, it almost sounded as bogus as a few of the PR spins out of France.
Both manufacturers do it. Nothing new here. Move on. Do not hijack this thread.
Quoting Keesje (Reply 15): Weren't the 2010 slots already to be given away (QF?)
I *believe* those were slots that were being held for Qatar Airways.
I'd be interested to know how many of Primaris's slots were before the earliest open slots at present. Is this going to mean close to twenty earlier slots earlier than what the program has sold out to, or is it only a small number?
V/F
"So powerful is the light of unity that it can illuminate the whole earth." - Bahá'u'lláh
LTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 13864 posts, RR: 51 Reply 22, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks ago) and read 9519 times:
Quoting PanHAM (Reply 3): 20 slots as early as 2010? Perfect fit for Lufthansa
Or maybe for DE. Their oldest 767 (D-ABUZ) will be 20 years old by 2011 (with the very first DE 767 D-ABUX having left the fleet already in 1993), so DE will need to use that LH code to buy some brandnew 787-8s (maybe some 10 frames). The rest can be used directly by LH for a 787-3 or 787-9 order.
AirFrnt From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2775 posts, RR: 43 Reply 24, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 9381 times:
Quoting Oldeuropean (Reply 10): No suprise. This "order" was a joke and always seen as a public relation action by both, Boeing and Primaris.
Quoting Keesje (Reply 15): Come lets not downplay this folks.
The "order" was fully exploited in the 7e7 PR campaign.
You are absolutly correct. The plane has come a long long way since the initial somewhat shakey launch where carriers like Primaris could sneak in and grab ideal production slots.
Quoting Keesje (Reply 15):
It must be a dissapointment. 20 Off.
Weren't the 2010 slots already to be given away (QF?)
I rather suspect that Boeing is happy with this particular turn of events. If the Primaris slots have not already been given away, this will free up a number of slots at least two years before the 350/370 sees life.
25 STT757: CO already has 20 787s on order, the first will arrive in 2009.
26 DAL767400ER: Actually not, refer to Boeing's order page: 3 787s were cancelled, and instead an order for 6 737-800s was placed. So yes, Xiamen DID cancel their 78
27 Jacobin777: QR had valuable slots for the 787, and when they had decided to go for the A350 instead, the valuable slots went to QF....so it turned out to be a po
28 CX747: Nice to see certain people taking a shot at Boeing over this "loss". I'm sure the Primaris order cancellation is a grave blow to the company. If you b
29 VirginFlyer: Boeing have it listed as a cancellation on their website: http://active.boeing.com/commercial/orders/index.cfm A thought about the slots. If they are
31 B757capt: I'm going to put my money on an order from Airtran after the 2012 mark.
32 FriendlySkies: I'll downplay all day...this "order" meant nothing to the 787 program, and hardly anyone actually believed it would ever go through. I wouldn't call
34 Ken777: I have a feeling that the 787 sales team at Boeing are far from downplaying the 20 slots being freed up. The early slots can be used to generate sale
35 TK787: I agree. I wish for TK to put in an order for 20. Or how about Olympic or whatever it is going to be replaced with? And maybe DL or OS?
36 Stitch: SQ ordered 787-9s, which will not be available until after 2010. While Primaris probably never firmed exactly what type of 787 they wanted, those 20
37 Eatmybologna: Exactly. Wasn't Primaris one of the first to place an order for the Dreamliner? If so, aren't some of the slots are in the 2008, 2009 period? Also, f
38 Amirs: Actually EL AL already made a deposit for a hold on 2010 slots. I think they paid around $1 million. If LY end up going for A330/A350 deal, then that
39 CX747: I agree that Primaris releasing/cancelling their 787 order is actually a positive for Boeing. Several airlines have stated over the past few months th
40 Cityguy: I actually called the Primaris office a few day ago and the phone was answered by a very upbeat lady who said they were "still in business".....whatev
41 MAH4546: I can hope the people at AA take a risk for once and go for it already. They know they'll need them. I admire AMR Corporation's ability to be conserva
42 RIXrat: Mind getting fuzzy. I know we've been over this time and again, but what airline/airlines will be getting the first 787s?
43 BestWestern: And people wonder why AA remains not in bankruptcy... Just like BA, they are sensible
44 NYC777: Ana and then followed (suprisingly) by Ethiopian!!!
45 MAH4546: Yes, but look at CAL. Also in healthy shape, but with new aircraft and smart expansion that AA isn't doing. This better prepares them for the future,
46 Aither: I was more than expected. The whole thing at this time was to get a first 787 order (it took time if you remember).
47 Zkojh: NZ have brought there dilvery slots forward from 2011 to 2010, when the take hold of the 787-9 series,
48 Dc10s4ever: I highly doubt AA will take advantage of the open slots. AA has said time and time again, no more new airplanes till we can make money with our exist
49 N328KF: If that is their precise mentality, then the problem with it is that they could make a profit more easily with new equipment.
50 Propulsion: Yes, but new equipment costs lots of $$$'s, hence you have so many airlines in the world operating with what they have vs. a more efficient and poten
51 Stitch: But it also costs capital. AA can spend $2 billion to order planes that will take four years before they make money or they can spend $2 billion to k
52 B707Stu: I've got to give you A for effort here... though it's clear it's ultimately a winner for Boeing to sell these slots at probably a profit. I'm sure th
53 Ikramerica: This is the difference between Boeing and Airbus. On the Airbus books, this would NOT be a cancellation. The 3 did revert to the generic "China" cate
54 ER757: That would be awesome - I can only hope! As to what becomes of the vacated delivery slots, I would think Boeing would offer earlier delivery to one o
55 Ckfred: A friend of mine is a 757/767 F/O. Now, he will be the first to tell you that 9 out of 10 rumors that he hears are false, and about half of those are
56 Ikramerica: NRT will also get more slots as the third runway gets extended. AA is big into NRT, and needs 1 777 for each NRT frequency it runs. But adding the le
57 Goodmanr: At least Envoy class isn't 25 years old and horrible, like on the 767s, which I had the misfortune of flying 5 times in 6 weeks to Madrid while stuck
58 AA777223: I guess I have always wondered, if the MD-11 hadn't turned out to be such a dissappointment, do you really think AA wouldn't have ever even ordered t
60 Atmx2000: It is surprising that they managed to get slots that soon, given that their initial order was small.
61 Cityguy: Agreed-I have flown only Envoy to Europe (multiple destinations and about 30X) and Envoy 330 is superior, but given the planes age that makes sense.
62 Stitch: That might have been the reason - Boeing able to slip them in between larger 787-8 customer order blocks.
63 ETStar: Is it the size of the order that leads to slots, or overall negotiation? ET was one of the earlier airlines to place the order, giving it access to e
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