Even though the crime in this case came in attempting to sell Coke’s corporate secrets, this story demonstrates how dangerous it is to improperly use confidential information. Since nearly all US airlines are at least partially public traded, relatively new legislation subjects companies to very strenuous requirements to protect its non-public information and provides for strict penalties for those that violate company confidential. Further, it is hard to imagine how someone could care about a company and then post its secrets for all the world to read.
For airlines, it includes non-public future plans as well as non-public operational and financial results.
''Sadly, today's arrests include an individual within our company,'' (Coca Cola CEO) Isdell wrote. ''While this breach of trust is difficult for all of us to accept, it underscores the responsibility we each have to be vigilant in protecting our trade secrets. Information is the lifeblood of the company.''
The same could be said about the airline industry as well. Each of us would do well to remember that even though we post under assumed names, nothing we post or our identities will remain anonymous if we divulge confidential information.
Many of us enjoy learning about the airline industry and discussing what is going on and would very much hate if this board were subjected to legal actions by companies attempting to identify the source of leaked company information. In order for this not to occur, each of us would do well to consider what is happening at Coca-Cola and the moderators would be wise to ensure that this post remain active and displayed.
NZ8800 From New Zealand, joined May 2006, 425 posts, RR: 2 Reply 1, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 4056 times:
Very true - Air New Zealand - and I am sure other airlines - monitor this forum, and will check for unauthorised leaks by their employees. We recently had this pointed out on one of the "NZ" threads.
MDZWTA ~ Mobile Disaster Zone When Travelling Abroad
Sunking737 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1930 posts, RR: 9 Reply 2, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 3771 times:
I know that my former employer has people also who read this forum daily. How do I know well when the COO sees you and you say hi and he replies hello "Sunking".
He did not mind but I was told to watch what I say.
I also what to add...Hi guys I sure miss everyone.
Jetdeltamsy From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 2984 posts, RR: 8 Reply 3, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 3531 times:
I can say from personal experience that management at Delta as least monitors these message boards. I'm sure they are looking for proprietary information being released.
I have been contacted twice through the a.net "contact" link asking me to refrain from making posts and to contact a management person at the company to "discuss" my views.
While I am not privvy to any confidential information to divulge, I'm highly critical of Delta management that makes blunder after blunder. They're watching and reading everything I write.
That's why I have to remain 100% anonymous.
Worked for too many airlines to list. Banktupcy after bankruptcy after bankruptcy.
Planespotting From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 3438 posts, RR: 5 Reply 4, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 3492 times:
People at the FAA watch these as well...
When I was an intern at WN I posted a written trip report of one of my jumpseat adventures (no pictures, no names, no flight numbers; only stations and titles) and someone from the FAA ended up emailing my boss about it...
I didn't break any FAR's or even company policy by posting the trip report, but in hindsight I probably should have asked before posting the experience on a public forum!
My bosses were pretty nice about it, but I definitely learned my lesson!
LTBEWR From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 12333 posts, RR: 12 Reply 5, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 3414 times:
I work for a major law firm in NY City and rules as to client and attorney confidentiality are very strict and well defined. Some of our clients are involved with the avaiation field so any comments I make have to be 'public' items, nothing accquired in my work.
ArtieFufkin From United States of America, joined May 2006, 704 posts, RR: 0 Reply 6, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 3381 times:
Quoting WorldTraveler (Thread starter): For airlines, it includes non-public future plans as well as non-public operational and financial results.
I cannot agree with the analogy at all WT. Stealing the Coke recipe and offering it for sale is illegal because the Coke recipe is a proprietary asset.
Just as stealing cash would be.
Letting someone know where Delta will fly next Month, may be a firing offense but it is not illegal to give it out or to surreptitiously solicit the information.
You can as you mention have information put out to manipulate stock prices which is illegal but nobody could make the case that Delta flying to Ghana moves the stock.
In fact I'd be hard pressed to include any non-public "operational" plans being given out as illegal. Operational not having to do with mergers/shut downs.
RoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 8740 posts, RR: 52 Reply 7, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 3184 times:
I've heard interesting things at work, but know that I can't say them even though many here would be interested to read them. I know that my company made me do training to teach about how to protect trade secrets and what information can or cannot be divulged during ethics training.
Quoting ArtieFufkin (Reply 6): Letting someone know where Delta will fly next Month, may be a firing offense but it is not illegal to give it out or to surreptitiously solicit the information.
Yes it is. There are laws that protect companies for having their trade secrets divulged. Things like new potential routes and even load factors are trade secrets that help the company. If you divulge a new route and a competitor finds out before the company wanted and gets an advantage, then you hurt the company and they can go after you to seek damages.
[Edited 2006-07-07 14:59:31]
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
StealthZ From Australia, joined Feb 2005, 5430 posts, RR: 49 Reply 8, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 3087 times:
Quoting ArtieFufkin (Reply 6): Letting someone know where Delta will fly next Month, may be a firing offense but it is not illegal to give it out or to surreptitiously solicit the information.
I receved a post deletion earlier today for being disrespectful to a contributor so I will not go there.
If xxxx have not announced their future plans, then those plans are the same as the "coke recipe" i.e company trade secrets and they are not yours to give out.. releasing those or surreptitiously soliciting that information is illegal in most commercially advanced countries.
If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
WorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 9, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 2976 times:
Artie,
I did not say it was illegal for an employee to divulge company secrets. Reread what I wrote.
Quoting WorldTraveler (Thread starter): Even though the crime in this case came in attempting to sell Coke’s corporate secrets, this story demonstrates how dangerous it is to improperly use confidential information.
Since almost all of the leaks originate from employees, they are the ones whose jobs are on the line. And leaking information does expose the company to potential liabilities such as termination penalties for failing to execute a contract. You can bet that a company will come back to the employees who leak information if it adversely affects the company. The SEC is very active in pursuing insider trading and information leaks that could affect a company's stock price.
I don’t really believe there are many, if any, people on this forum who intentionally leak information to harm a company. In fact, many think they are being “cool” to be the first to tell the world of a company’s plans – usually for the company they care about and support. I have a hard time believing that anyone would release non-public information if they genuinely care about a company’s success.
And non-public information does include operational performance that has not been released, along the lines of “how is route XXX doing”. Unless you personally stand at the boarding door and count people walking on or actually fly on a flight, you are not authorized to reveal how a route is performing. Once an airport releases traffic statistics, then it is public information.
And as I have pointed out many times, there is more competitive information available about US airlines that for any other industry anywhere in the world thanks to government reporting requirements. It does take time to process it all but much of the information that people speculate on these boards can be derived from government filings. If company officials do not comment on the performance of a route prior to those filings, the information is non-public just as future strategies are non-public unless they have been announced. And it should be noted that the government considers a company’s communication to its entire employee group as public information. There is nothing illegal or unethical about an employee posting information on a.net or another forum which has been shared with all employees, even if the poster does not identify him/herself as an employee of a company. An aweful lot of communications with employees end up in the media. Information released to a specific group in order to develop a strategy is not.
The best use of a forum like this is to speculate on what a company may do - stating your belief as such - and to discuss publicly released information. There are a number of people on this forum that have considerable knowledge which they can use to provide insight into released information and there are as many if not more people who want that insight. In that context, this forum is a great place for aviation enthusiasts.
RichardPrice From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 10, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 2950 times:
Quoting ArtieFufkin (Reply 6):
Letting someone know where Delta will fly next Month, may be a firing offense but it is not illegal to give it out or to surreptitiously solicit the information.
Uh hate to tell you this, but making public that information when its being kept deliberately secret by the corporation or business is illegal in most western countries.
They are called Trade Secrets and in the US they are specifically protected in 40 states under the Uniform Trade Secrets Act, which makes disclosing them when you are not authorised to do so illegal, publishing them when you know they have been obtained illegally or disclosed to you by someone who may not be authorised is also illegal.
The US Economic Espoinage Act 1996 also makes it illegal to steal or misappropriate trade secrets for economic or personal gain.
RichardPrice From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 12, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 2882 times:
Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 11): And would the gratification of being "the first to tell the world" be considered personal gain?
Quite possibly, if you did it for publicity or personal gratification, yes. Bear in mind that those arent the only grounds for prosecution, they were just used as examples - the mere disclosure of operating information which has a detrimental effect to the company when you arent authorised to do so is also grounds.
ArtieFufkin From United States of America, joined May 2006, 704 posts, RR: 0 Reply 13, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 2868 times:
The Uniform Trade Secrets Act does not have criminal penalties but civil remedies to award damages and issue injucntions.
But even if it did. Spilling the beans on a future route would not qualify, as it does not meet the narrow definition of "Trade Secret"
(4) "Trade secret" means information, including a formula, pattern, compilation, program device, method, technique, or process, that: (i) derives independent economic value, actual or potential, from no being generally known to, and not being readily ascertainable by proper means by, other persons who can obtain economic value from its disclosure or use, and (ii) is the subject of efforts that are reasonable under the circumstances to maintain its secrecy.
The key here is "derives independent economic value" Independent ...Meaning if of of itself, is the idea to fly to Ghana have any serious value?" No.
Again, it's naughty. It's a fireable offense. But there is nothing on the books to charge you with.
RichardPrice From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 14, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 2844 times:
Quoting ArtieFufkin (Reply 13): (4) "Trade secret" means information, including a formula, pattern, compilation, program device, method, technique, or process, that: (i) derives independent economic value, actual or potential, from no being generally known to, and not being readily ascertainable by proper means by, other persons who can obtain economic value from its disclosure or use, and (ii) is the subject of efforts that are reasonable under the circumstances to maintain its secrecy.
Sure it does, a future route is information that derives independant economic value and is being kept secret for the moment by the operator.
The definitions of a trade secret are not limited to 'formula, pattern, compilation, program device, method, technique, or process,' that passage just happens to assert that it includes those definitions under 'information'.
ArtieFufkin From United States of America, joined May 2006, 704 posts, RR: 0 Reply 15, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 2811 times:
Additionally, the Espionage Act of 1996 would not apply as first and foremost it requires intent to gain economic advantage on the part of the leaker. What we have on airliners.net is water cooler talk.
So what would be the criminal charge here? The UTSA is civil code. You can sue someone for any percieved slight. The Espionage Act does not apply as it requires "economic gain".
RichardPrice From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 17, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 2767 times:
Quoting ArtieFufkin (Reply 15): So what would be the criminal charge here? The UTSA is civil code. You can sue someone for any percieved slight. The Espionage Act does not apply requires "economic gain".
Who said anything about criminal charges? The initial comment was -
Quoting ArtieFufkin (Reply 6):
Letting someone know where Delta will fly next Month, may be a firing offense but it is not illegal to give it out or to surreptitiously solicit the information.
Both the UTSA and the EEA make it illegal to do this under a LOT of circumstances, and illegality of an action doesnt require criminal charges.
ArtieFufkin From United States of America, joined May 2006, 704 posts, RR: 0 Reply 18, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 2716 times:
Well that's our misunderstanding. I used the term "illegal" to mean something different although I believe your definition of it is valid. I was trying to get accross the point that someone who spills the beans on a route (as it occurs here at airliners.net) has nothing to worry about from a Governmental agency. Be that the SEC/FAA/FBI etc.
The EEA requires "economic gain" so that is off the table. In my opinion the UTSA's definition of "trade secret" is too narrow to apply here as well. And it's only punitive measure is to award "damages". I was thinking in terms of offenses that can wind someone up in jail like the "Coke Recipe Caper" that I was responding to. But WT said he was not arguing that either.
Jetdeltamsy From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 2984 posts, RR: 8 Reply 19, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 2684 times:
Quoting ArtieFufkin (Reply 6): Letting someone know where Delta will fly next Month, may be a firing offense but it is not illegal to give it out or to surreptitiously solicit the information.
It most certainly is. Unless and until that information has been released by the company, it is their right to "own" and control the information. You can go to jail for saying too much.
Worked for too many airlines to list. Banktupcy after bankruptcy after bankruptcy.
ArtieFufkin From United States of America, joined May 2006, 704 posts, RR: 0 Reply 20, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 2655 times:
Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 19): It most certainly is. Unless and until that information has been released by the company, it is their right to "own" and control the information. You can go to jail for saying too much.
Right. Now can you read the thread first and offer something new?
RoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 8740 posts, RR: 52 Reply 21, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 2625 times:
Quoting ArtieFufkin (Reply 13): The key here is "derives independent economic value" Independent ...Meaning if of of itself, is the idea to fly to Ghana have any serious value?" No
While I don't know what the legal consequences are, there is economic value in witholding information. I've had training on this, and a new route definitely has economic value. Here is an example. What if jetBlue wanted to start flying to Minneapolis. They probably would withold information until they did a thorough analysis. Northwest would probably counter this route annoucement, but jetBlue would receive benefit from initially Northwest not knowing that jetBlue is interested in the market.
Another thing that is a trade secret is load factors and yields. Everyone seems to be curious about these, but they are trade secrets because airlines benefit from others not knowing. If airline X found out that airline Y was making tons of money on a certain route since they had high load factors and high fares (which isn't confidential), then they might be interested in entering the market. So that definitely is a trade secret although it is often divulged.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
Dutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 58 Reply 22, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 2539 times:
Firstly, I want to thank WT for warning us about this very serious problem, after all, the a.net police squad could arrest all of us for discussing what is happening in the airline world.
Lets look at what is really going on:
1. Firstly, the information being shared must be correct and accurate to be a legitimate trade secret; that eliminates a lot of what is posted at a.net.
2. The vast majority of the stuff posted is gathered (a) from rumors, specualtions, he said/she said stuff and/or (b) information that is already in the public domain. If one takes the time to read an annual report or SEC filing, you can learn lots and lots of facts and details about a carrier.
3. Being interested in the airlines and in the industry, sometimes members will "put things together" and discuss them. Or sometimes a member will hear something interesting and disclose the information - most of the time, that kind of information was already public knowledge.
4. Real trade secrets on a.net - hardly. In another thread (that went all wrong, by the way) I reported, after lunching with some friends, that I heard that CO will probably be adding more routes to Europe with the 757 next summer. Is that a trade secret? Hardly, any 10 year old who likes airplanes and airlines knows that CO is expanding to Europe and using the 757 for the new routes. I also said that the usual cities were on the list - the list is every city that everyone has been talking about for the past three years. I dont think that the SEC is getting upset yet. I also said that I heard that CO may drop one route to Europe - firstly, I said may drop, not will drop, simply because there is no decision that I know of, its talk and chat, and while I was told the city that is in issue (and whether I should have been told that info is a whole other story).....I did not and will not disclose the name of that city although I was asked several times. And I dont expect a visit from the FBI.
5. Rarely, if ever, have I seen any information posted on a.net that would be considered a trade secret (or even close). Many of us do know far more than we post; we are careful and will not post anything that would even come close to breaking a law.
But I understand where WT is coming from - he is setting some of us for a big trap: if we share information about an airline with our fellow a.net members, and say we heard it from sources inside an airline, we are doing something that is not only illegal but is also disloyal to our airline of choice. On the other hand, if we post information, get called on it, and then say, to avoid any "legalities", that we did not hear it from a credible source, we are deemed fools because we are posting nonsense that we made up. You are damned one way or the other, very clever indeed, shame it did not work.
Dont try to out lawyer the lawyers, its wont work. And thanks for the advise, its appreciated.
ArtieFufkin From United States of America, joined May 2006, 704 posts, RR: 0 Reply 23, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 2483 times:
Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 22): 4. Real trade secrets on a.net - hardly. In another thread (that went all wrong, by the way) I reported, after lunching with some friends, that I heard that CO will probably be adding more routes to Europe with the 757 next summer. Is that a trade secret? Hardly, any 10 year old who likes airplanes and airlines knows that CO is expanding to Europe and using the 757 for the new routes. I also said that the usual cities were on the list - the list is every city that everyone has been talking about for the past three years. I dont think that the SEC is getting upset yet. I also said that I heard that CO may drop one route to Europe - firstly, I said may drop, not will drop, simply because there is no decision that I know of, its talk and chat, and while I was told the city that is in issue (and whether I should have been told that info is a whole other story).....I did not and will not disclose the name of that city although I was asked several times. And I dont expect a visit from the FBI.
This brings up another issue that would preclude you, in this particular case from any prosecution. The act requires the companies make "reasonable efforts" to keep the information secret. By telling you, a non-employee, having know material interest in the information, what they will do just blew that provision out of the water. If a airline employee tells you some water cooler gossip you are free to broadcast to the World.
ArtieFufkin From United States of America, joined May 2006, 704 posts, RR: 0 Reply 24, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 2468 times:
Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 21): While I don't know what the legal consequences are, there is economic value in witholding information. I've had training on this, and a new route definitely has economic value. Here is an example. What if jetBlue wanted to start flying to Minneapolis. They probably would withold information until they did a thorough analysis. Northwest would probably counter this route annoucement, but jetBlue would receive benefit from initially Northwest not knowing that jetBlue is interested in the market.
Another thing that is a trade secret is load factors and yields. Everyone seems to be curious about these, but they are trade secrets because airlines benefit from others not knowing. If airline X found out that airline Y was making tons of money on a certain route since they had high load factors and high fares (which isn't confidential), then they might be interested in entering the market. So that definitely is a trade secret although it is often divulged.
I agree with that in general. I just don't think it rises to the level that would trigger any legal action. It's a minor temporary intelligence gain. As you are most likely aware of, past date load factor and yield information is published by the DOT.
25 RoseFlyer: Fortunately I believe that is the case. People do think about what they can say and what they can't. In all honesty I think I could get more than fir
26 WorldTraveler: The interesting thing about the airline industry is that there is tons of information that can be obtained about airline performance because so much d
27 ArtieFufkin: WT I'm not familiar with that legislation but I would assume it just addressed info given out to manipulate stock prices. I've been faxed Corporate ag
28 MaverickM11: What about information on companies that you used to work for? Is there a time limit after which you can write the tell-all book, so to speak?
29 Rootsgirl: And you have to be careful others dont use your moniker. Someone at the airline I used to work asked me if they could use my moniker to read and post
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