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Virgin: Why No Flights To TLV?  
User currently onlineLY777 From France, joined Nov 2005, 2679 posts, RR: 2
Posted (8 years 2 months 5 hours ago) and read 7012 times:

I was wondering why VS does not fly to TLV.
Sacha


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51 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineTwoLz2Rn From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 450 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (8 years 2 months 5 hours ago) and read 6997 times:

They might eventually...

User currently onlineLY777 From France, joined Nov 2005, 2679 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (8 years 2 months 5 hours ago) and read 6997 times:

which a/c would suit for the route?


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User currently offlineCHRISBA777ER From UK - England, joined Mar 2001, 5964 posts, RR: 62
Reply 3, posted (8 years 2 months 5 hours ago) and read 6980 times:

A343 at first if they did (although wonder if the conservative right would approve of the airline's brash and sexy manner).

Pros:

* Good yields year round.
* Good traffic year round.
* Five hours flight time - good for block times if you alternate with a long-sector?

Cons:

* Not v stable at the moment, so forecasting bit tough.
* Insurance costs high to fly there.
* LY and BA already v competitive on the route.
* Possible political ramifications of flying there and then applying for flights to Muslim countries - VS crew having stopped over in TLV may have issues going to the Kingdom etc.



What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
User currently offlineSemsem From Israel, joined Jul 2005, 1779 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (8 years 2 months 2 hours ago) and read 6869 times:

Why should Virgin fly to TLV? El Al and British Airways already do so who needs another airline? Of course they would do well as they could get all the connecting traffic to the USA. However I am sure there are a lot of better cities they can fly to with higher yields.Also volatile situation due to politics.

[Edited 2006-07-06 20:10:48]

User currently offlineBA747YYZ From Canada, joined Mar 2006, 377 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (8 years 2 months 2 hours ago) and read 6800 times:

Is there enough traffic for VS to go to TLV? I have my doubts!

Quoting LY777 (Reply 2):
which a/c would suit for the route?

None that they have, they would want to use a twin engine plane like a 330, or a 767.


User currently onlineLY777 From France, joined Nov 2005, 2679 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (8 years 2 months 1 hour ago) and read 6769 times:

well, I think there is enough traffic between TLV and London:for instance, on wednsday, July 12th, LY operates 3 flights:


01 12JUL TLV 10:15 LHR 13:35 0 NO LY 315 NO FCY 744
02 12JUL TLV 11:45 STN 15:05 0 NO LY 213 NO CY 762
03 12JUL TLV 17:35 LHR 20:45 0 NO LY 317 NO CY 744

plus BA: 2 flights: one with a 777
and one with a 763

ie 5 flights:2 Jumbos and 3 wide body



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User currently offlineBroocy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (8 years 2 months 1 hour ago) and read 6751 times:

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 3):
* Possible political ramifications of flying there and then applying for flights to Muslim countries - VS crew having stopped over in TLV may have issues going to the Kingdom etc.

Why should this be a problem given that BA, LH, KL, AF etc all have extensive Middle East route networks yet they serve TLV as well?


User currently offlineBCAL From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2004, 3384 posts, RR: 16
Reply 8, posted (8 years 2 months 1 hour ago) and read 6725 times:

Quoting Broocy (Reply 7):
Why should this be a problem given that BA, LH, KL, AF etc all have extensive Middle East route networks yet they serve TLV as well?

Simple explanation. All these airlines have been operating Middle East networks for years (well before VS even got off the ground, and even before its owner was born) and know the political ramifications, customs etc like the back of their hands. They have built up their networks through years of experience, and have gained respect. Whereas VS would be a newcomer and quite probably an unknown brand.



MOL on SRB's latest attack at BA: "It's like a little Chihuahua barking at a dying Labrador. Nobody cares."
User currently offlineRJpieces From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (8 years 2 months 1 hour ago) and read 6692 times:

Quoting Semsem (Reply 4):
Of course they would do well as they could get all the connecting traffic to the USA

A lot of which is high-yielding...It could be a good route for them.


User currently offlineMalpensaSFO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (8 years 2 months ago) and read 6663 times:

Odds are Beirut and Cairo will come about long before Tel Aviv hits the radar for VS.

User currently offline4xRuv From Israel, joined Dec 2003, 388 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (8 years 2 months ago) and read 6642 times:

Guys, TLV-LHR is one of the busiest route from TLV. With currently 5 scheduled daily flights + god knows how many charters, if VS is looking for a profitable line, TLV is a very good candidate, Especially with its great connections to the US. I'm pretty sure they'd also want a bite from the very sweet cake called TLV-JFK/LAX route.
Politics? I agree with Broocy. If BA crew can stop here, why can't the VS? Just because BA has been flying for years? The Arab boycott on Israel doesn't exist anymore.


User currently offlineStarGuy From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2005, 335 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (8 years 2 months ago) and read 6621 times:

Thank god we don't fly to Tel Aviv and as for Beirut, no thanks. It's bad enough having an armed escort from airport to hotel in Lagos with the odd shot being fired into the air. Let's keep it glitz please!  Smile

User currently offlineMalpensaSFO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (8 years 2 months ago) and read 6620 times:

Quoting 4xRuv (Reply 11):
I'm pretty sure they'd also want a bite from the very sweet cake called TLV-JFK/LAX route

Funny, that market is wrapped and given to Israir, El Al, and Continental. The biggest chunk of connecting traffic is with Lufthansa, and Air France.


User currently offlineCOEWRNJ From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 1064 posts, RR: 19
Reply 14, posted (8 years 2 months ago) and read 6595 times:

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 3):
* Possible political ramifications of flying there and then applying for flights to Muslim countries - VS crew having stopped over in TLV may have issues going to the Kingdom etc.

I've never thought about that. How does it work? Do these countries make exceptions for flight crew or do flight crew that work TLV flights ever touch Middle Eastern flights?


User currently offlineBA From United States of America, joined May 2000, 11153 posts, RR: 59
Reply 15, posted (8 years 2 months ago) and read 6576 times:

Quoting StarGuy (Reply 12):
Thank god we don't fly to Tel Aviv and as for Beirut, no thanks.

There is an active thread right now about VS to Beirut:
Virgin Atlantic To Beirut? (by BA Jul 4 2006 in Civil Aviation)

Quoting StarGuy (Reply 12):
It's bad enough having an armed escort from airport to hotel in Lagos with the odd shot being fired into the air. Let's keep it glitz please!

No airline that serves Beirut has its flight crew have an armed escort from the airport to the hotel.

I have seen various European airline flight crew in various hotels in Beirut and there is no special security arrangement.

Same goes for Cairo and Amman in my experience. Saudi Arabia is a different matter ever since there have been several terrorist attacks striking various western targets.

Quoting 4xRuv (Reply 11):
The Arab boycott on Israel doesn't exist anymore.

It still does, it's just not enforced as much anymore.



"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
User currently offlineMalpensaSFO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (8 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 6551 times:

Quoting StarGuy (Reply 12):
Thank god we don't fly to Tel Aviv and as for Beirut, no thanks. It's bad enough having an armed escort from airport to hotel in Lagos with the odd shot being fired into the air. Let's keep it glitz please!

Fortunately, the above statement holds no merit when the demand for yield called Virgin running to Lagos and Dubai..  wink 


User currently offlineRJpieces From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (8 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 6546 times:

Quoting MalpensaSFO (Reply 13):
Funny, that market is wrapped and given to Israir, El Al, and Continental. The biggest chunk of connecting traffic is with Lufthansa, and Air France.

And Delta now. Although I believe Swiss has more connecting traffic than Air France.

Quoting BA (Reply 15):
It still does, it's just not enforced as much anymore.

Plus countries which seek special trade agreements with the US (or in the case of Saudi Arabia entry into the WTO) can't participate in any boycott against Israel.


User currently offlineSteve6666 From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 403 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (8 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 6446 times:

Quoting BA (Reply 15):
Quoting 4xRuv (Reply 11):
The Arab boycott on Israel doesn't exist anymore.

It still does, it's just not enforced as much anymore.

It's irrelevant - you just get two passports and keep one for Israel and one for the rest... Easy as



eu nasci ha dez mil anos atras, e nao tem nada nesse mundo que eu nao saiba demais
User currently offlineAmirs From Israel, joined Dec 2003, 1333 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (8 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 6424 times:

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 17):
Quoting MalpensaSFO (Reply 13):
Funny, that market is wrapped and given to Israir, El Al, and Continental. The biggest chunk of connecting traffic is with Lufthansa, and Air France.

And Delta now. Although I believe Swiss has more connecting traffic than Air France.

Actually AF is not considered one of the strong players on the market.
Its LH, LX, BA and then AZ, AU and AF.
Af only have a 2x daily A320 on the route. the recently added the second flight.

Quoting 4xRuv (Reply 11):
Guys, TLV-LHR is one of the busiest route from TLV. With currently 5 scheduled daily flights

Actually LY only has only 2 x flight to LHR during the year (always on a widebody 767, 777 or 744). LY315/316 and LY317/318. They also have an additional flight once or twice a week LY313/314.
Now during the summer months they have an extra flight or two to STN LY217/218.
This year I heard they will add a third daily flight at night to LHR.


User currently offlineSemsem From Israel, joined Jul 2005, 1779 posts, RR: 3
Reply 20, posted (8 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 6236 times:

Mr. Branson does a lot of business in the Arab countries and I don't think he is looking for a headache. He seems to be focusing on that area. Don't they fly to Saudi Arabia or Dubai I think?

AF used to be a big player in the TLV connecting market but retreated. Olympic also was quite a big player in the 70s for connecting US traffic. AZ suddenly became a big player, also LX and the biggest LH.

SK is one European airline that stopped flying to TLV. Tarom of Romania used to be big in connecting traffic to New York but got out of the USA.

RJ yes Saudi Arabia because of the WTO cannot boycott but they do and they admitted it.

[Edited 2006-07-07 16:24:29]

User currently offlineMalpensaSFO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (8 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 6228 times:

Quoting Semsem (Reply 20):
Don't they fly to Saudi Arabia or Dubai I think?

Dubai A346 daily ex LHR


User currently offlineStarGuy From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2005, 335 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (8 years 1 month 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 6078 times:

Quoting MalpensaSFO (Reply 16):
Quoting StarGuy (Reply 12):
Thank god we don't fly to Tel Aviv and as for Beirut, no thanks. It's bad enough having an armed escort from airport to hotel in Lagos with the odd shot being fired into the air. Let's keep it glitz please!

Fortunately, the above statement holds no merit when the demand for yield called Virgin running to Lagos and Dubai..

You've obviously never been to Dubai. Dubai is lush, a fantastic destination for now and I believe for the future. I have been there on holiday and can't wait to be rostered a DXB trip. Lagos however, even if the flight does make the company loads of money, I fear for my life in Lagos!


User currently offlineRaffik From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2006, 1716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 23, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 5965 times:

Quoting StarGuy (Reply 12):
Thank god we don't fly to Tel Aviv and as for Beirut, no thanks. It's bad enough having an armed escort from airport to hotel in Lagos with the odd shot being fired into the air. Let's keep it glitz please!

You've obviousley not been to Beirut before- hardly a crime capital any more, and has become more famous for it's plush hotels, great beaches and beautiful scenery. 1.5 million tourists last year..



Happy -go- lucky kinda guy!
User currently offline4xRuv From Israel, joined Dec 2003, 388 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 5930 times:

First of all, I haven't seen any foreign crew being escorted to their hotels in TLV. I often see foreign crew members hanging out alone in tel aviv with no fear.
Regarding the passport, most countries do not stamp crew passport. I don't know what's Israel policy, however I do know that due to the problem with the Arab countries, if you want, your passport isn't being stamped, and instead they attach a note to your passport which is removed when you leave the country. I'm not sure if it's for all nationalities, or only for citizens from specific countries ( I know for sure that there's an agreement with the BENELUX countries)


25 MalpensaSFO : Perhaps you need to re read what I wrote, I wrote and I will say it again the yield for Lagos and Dubai caused Virgin to go running into those market
26 Post contains images StarGuy : Then why did you mention Dubai? I was talking about horrid places and you dropped Dubai into the equation. Dubai is glitz and is investing billions i
27 MalpensaSFO : Re-read back in the posting you will see that someone illuded to the fact that Lagos was not such a hot place to visit.. In turn Virgin has decided t
28 StarGuy : I am well aware of the fact that "a flight attendants members point of view is useless when it comes to the bottom line" I'm not stupid enough to thi
29 RJpieces : These days you are much safer in Tel Aviv than London...
30 MalpensaSFO : One can easily be blown up in London, New York, Bali, or Paris. It can happen anywhere. If everyone stays away from places because of their percieved
31 StarGuy : Hardly. Besides, I don't live in London, so even if London were as prone to being torn apart by Palestinian bombs as Tel Aviv, I still wouldn't have
32 StarGuy : I totally understand where you are coming from, but althought they haven't been made public, some pretty awful things have happened to some of our ca
33 WJ : Bunch of points to make: VS is completly missing the boat on TLV. London and the UK in general is the #1 tourist and business destination out of TLV w
34 LY777 : BA 763s that fly to TLV have PTVs
35 Amirs : Both 763 and 777 that BA use on the route have IFE's, but I would like to see a VS Airbus in TLV as well.
36 WJ : Must have been a recent upgrade. I flew on them out of TLV 2-3 years ago and the 763 I was on did not have them. Good to know... I was avoiding them
37 Semsem : Why is the poster so eager to see Virgin in TLV? They have a bad reputation. The seats are very narrow with little legroom and everyone I know who fle
38 MalpensaSFO : What happened with the lone VS A320/A321 that flew ex LGW-ATH?
39 StarGuy : I don't know where everyone gets the impression that VS seating is any tighter than the competition. It has the same pitch and width as British Airwa
40 Shlomoz : I fly LY quite regularly and have been on VS quite a number of times as well and totally agree that LY's coach seats are far superior to VS. No compar
41 LY777 : Which a/c do you compare?
42 Shlomoz : VS 744 and 343 to LY 744 and 777
43 StarGuy : El Al seating must be the best in the world then for you to give VS seating such a damning criticism.
44 Semsem : BA seating is also terrible at 31" legroom. I like BA except for their seating. LY seating is 32" legroom and it makes a huge difference. I had read t
45 BA : They got rid of it in 2003 I think when they decided to stop their Athens services.
46 Cory6188 : Is there really that much connecting traffic from TLV to the USA via Europe? I would think that the large majority of pax would fly nonstop on LY, CO
47 Semsem : Cory they connect due to overflow and sometimes lower fares.
48 LY777 : El Al 777s are more comfortable than their 744s
49 RJpieces : Yes. I remember reading somewhere that El Al and Continental alone (this was before Delta) carry some fairly low percentage of the market considering
50 Humberside : Wasn't ATH operated on a franchise basis and not by VS themselves?
51 BA : As far as I know, it was operated by VS themselves. The A321-200 that they got to replace the A320-200 was on lease from GECAS.
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