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New Blow To Airbus As A350 Faces Delay  
User currently offlinePygmalion From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 963 posts, RR: 38
Posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 18831 times:

New article in the times about the A350 and possible new delays due to the management shakeup... Fair use excerpt:

"AIRBUS may be forced to delay the launch of its £7 billion A350 project because Christian Streiff, the group’s new chief executive who has still not formally started work, needs time to approve the venture, The Times has learnt.
Details have also emerged for the first time of how NM Rothschild & Sons came to its valuation of BAE Systems’ 20 per cent stake in Airbus, casting doubt on the effectiveness of work done by other City institutions.

Sources close to EADS, the majority shareholder in Airbus, have given warning that M Streiff, former deputy chief executive of the French conglomerate Saint-Gobain, may not be able to make a decision about the A350 by the company’s self- imposed deadline of the Farnborough Air Show, which starts on July 17.

Officially, EADS insists that a decision on the A350 is still possible by Farnborough but neither it, BAE or Airbus has been able to confirm exactly when M Streiff will be confirmed as chief executive.


Full article can be found at the TimesOnline.
New blow to Airbus as A350 faces delay

158 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMSYtristar From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 6412 posts, RR: 51
Reply 1, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 18788 times:

It would be nice to see US ditch the 350 and jump on some of the new 787 slots which have opened up after Primaris officially gave them up.


Next trip: MSY-SEA-GEG-SEA-LWS-BOI-PDX-SEA-LAS on AS
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 29686 posts, RR: 84
Reply 2, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 18788 times:
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I imagine Airbus is still polling current and potential A350 customers. If the latest version is a significant depature, there may be friction amongst the customers who like what the current iteration is and what the latest version is.

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 1):
It would be nice to see US ditch the 350 and jump on some of the new 787 slots which have opened up after Primaris officially gave them up.

US is probably better off sticking with the A330. Their international service is not as...robust...as many and the A330 seems to be serving them well.

[Edited 2006-07-07 01:15:10]

User currently offlineMSYtristar From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 6412 posts, RR: 51
Reply 3, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 18754 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 2):
US is probably better off sticking with the A330. Their international service is not as...robust...as many and the A330 seems to be serving them well.

True. I guess unless US wanted to try to open up some Asian destinations, the 333 will work well for them.



Next trip: MSY-SEA-GEG-SEA-LWS-BOI-PDX-SEA-LAS on AS
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 29686 posts, RR: 84
Reply 4, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 18685 times:
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Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 4):
True. I guess unless US wanted to try to open up some Asian destinations, the 333 will work well for them.

It (along with the A332) seems to work well for NW.  thumbsup 


User currently offlineSteeler83 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 9112 posts, RR: 18
Reply 5, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 18659 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 2):
Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 1):
It would be nice to see US ditch the 350 and jump on some of the new 787 slots which have opened up after Primaris officially gave them up.

US is probably better off sticking with the A330. Their international service is not as...robust...as many and the A330 seems to be serving them well.



Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 4):
True. I guess unless US wanted to try to open up some Asian destinations, the 333 will work well for them.

Yeah, I don't thing US will ditch the A350 for the 787; they're quite happy with the way the airbus aircraft have served the airline. I agree that the A330s are doing fine for US; they seem very happy with the A330s.



Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
User currently offline87dreamin From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 18633 times:

"Sources close to EADS," in PR/journalist source speak, mean, "intentional leak by EADS."

Ninety-five percent chance this is a prepare-the-market leak.


User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24638 posts, RR: 86
Reply 7, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 18603 times:
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"New Blow To Airbus As A350 Faces Delay"

I'm not clear why it is "a blow"?

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 8, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 18518 times:

Quoting Mariner (Reply 10):
I'm not clear why it is "a blow"?

Perhaps the market will view this the same way you do, Mariner?

This is what caught my eye:

Quote:
Airbus�s initial designs for the A350 did not receive a warm reception from airlines and the jet-builder was forced to draw up new proposals. This is thought to have caused a significant increase in development costs, with estimates now up to �7 billion.

That's about USD$12.8 billion right? Wasn't the re-design originally rumored at USD$10billion tops? This is starting to sound like a defense project!



"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24638 posts, RR: 86
Reply 9, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 18460 times:
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Quoting Lumberton (Reply 9):
Perhaps the market will view this the same way you do, Mariner?

I have no idea what the market will do. Some will buy 787's, I would guess.

But perhaps it is better to get the A350 right than get it out, so I still don't know why it is "a blow".

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 10, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 18436 times:

Quoting Mariner (Reply 9):
have no idea what the market will do. Some will buy 787's, I would guess.

Actually, greedy capitalist that I am, I was referring to the stock markets!

And I wholeheartedly agree, get it right. Better to have the Steven U-H's of the world rave than rant....



"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineAerospaceFan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 18436 times:

It might be that July 17 as a self-imposed deadline is basically too early, anyway. I see no reason why a company should be so bound to the start date of an airshow, no matter how prestigious.

What harm could it do for Streiff to take a couple of weeks to study the situation?

Basically, I don't agree that this is necessarily a "blow". It's just another factor, in my view.


User currently offlineBoeingBus From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1596 posts, RR: 18
Reply 12, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 18412 times:

Mariner, a blow could be a good thing...  Wink

Honestly, this is nothing new and nothing unexpected. Airbus just got new leadership and of course an expenditure of 10 billion needs to be reviewed. I think right now Airbus wants to do what is right for its future...

Airbus can't afford to be distracted on paper airplanes. Airbus needs to protect the 14 billion dollar A380 investment by making sure deliveries happen and customers are satisfied. Right now, nothing else matters...



Airbus or Boeing - it's all good to me!
User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 13, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 18350 times:

Quoting BoeingBus (Reply 12):
an expenditure of 10 billion needs to be reviewed. I think right now Airbus wants to do what is right for its future...

Not according to Rothschild, if the Times has it's numbers right. The symbols from the portion of the article I quoted didn't copy and paste correctly, but Rothschild is saying the costs are now at Pounds Sterling 7 billion, or $12.8 billion U.S. Dollars. This is very significant cost escalation,if true.



"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineAerospaceFan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 18350 times:

Well put, BoeingBus. Airbus has good reason to be careful these days, because another false move, and the "corporate vultures" of the world (meaning, by this reference, not anyone in particular, but simply the many hypothetical financial interests who may be looking for divestiture for salvage reasons, etc.) will want to swoop in for the kill. EADS is already facing the music concerning its stock value. And all of this is on top of rather unpredictionable nationalistic impulses pertaining to Airbus of which I, personally, have become bored.

Again, I give Airbus a matter of years, not months, to return to rationality. A few weeks or a month or two to study the proposed design changes and implement the approval process seems to be a reasonable thing to do.

Like many Americans, I hold Airbus in high esteem for a number of reasons -- as a peer of Boeing, but also as an economic factor that promotes prosperity among its suppliers. Both Boeing and Airbus have become so internationalized in significant ways, it seems a bit churlish to take too negative of a position when either one stalls.

From a more general standpoint, the prosperity of Europe as a whole seems to me to have been a foreign policy goal of American governments for many decades. Seen in that light, a strong Europe is far better than a weaker one regardless of how much easier weak competition may be for American companies, and we should have our share of pride for the way that Europe has recovered from the disaster caused by war and strife merely sixty years ago. By extension of this reasoning, promoters of the interests of a prosperous global aviation industry should welcome a healthy Airbus.

I'm not sure why the Times describes the delay as a blow. To me, it's simply a much-needed pause for reflection, and in my view, not really objectionable merely because of it.

[Edited 2006-07-07 02:10:48]

User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21416 posts, RR: 60
Reply 15, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 18107 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 2):
US is probably better off sticking with the A330. Their international service is not as...robust...as many and the A330 seems to be serving them well.

I think US would rather have the 330. They don't have routes that require the range of the 350. I only think they ordered them as a favor to Airbus for the loan, and they reportedly have an easy conversion clause to 330s, with conditions already met by the 350 program changes/delays.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineF4N From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 18107 times:

Quoting Mariner (Reply 7):
"New Blow To Airbus As A350 Faces Delay"

I'm not clear why it is "a blow"?

Mariner:

I think that the last thing airbus needs right now is more bad news. Perhaps "blow" is not necessarily the correct journalistic device, but it gets the point across. While you are correct in that it is better to get it right than get it out, the credibility of the new management team may dictate otherwise.

We shall see...

regards,

F4N


User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16345 posts, RR: 86
Reply 17, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 18082 times:

I think that they'd like to be more than they currently are... they're the 5th largest US airline, and with feed from Star Alliance partners could certainly fuel European growth and maybe even some spotty Asian growth.

N


User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24638 posts, RR: 86
Reply 18, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 18041 times:
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Quoting F4N (Reply 19):
I think that the last thing airbus needs right now is more bad news.

Define "bad news".

(i) Is it a function of the new team to try and make the previous team's decisions work?

Obviously, in the case of the A380, being so far advanced, that must be true.

(ii) Or - is it a function of the new team to bring fresh concepts?

The A350 is not yet so far advanced, so new concepts may apply.

If it is the prevailing attitude that the present A350 doesn't cut the mustard would a cancellation - or a long-ish postponement - of the project be defined as "bad news"?

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineVega From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 18023 times:

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 3):
Quoting Stitch (Reply 2):
US is probably better off sticking with the A330. Their international service is not as...robust...as many and the A330 seems to be serving them well.

True. I guess unless US wanted to try to open up some Asian destinations, the 333 will work well for them.

US Airways has ten 330-200s on firm order, which have the range for PHL-NRT/KIX and PHX/PDX-Japan+ Some of Asia. This order is unrelated to the 350s.

[Edited 2006-07-07 02:53:13]

User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 20, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 18003 times:

Quoting Pygmalion (Thread starter):
'Times' Quote - M Streiff, former deputy chief executive of the French conglomerate Saint-Gobain, may not be able to make a decision about the A350 by the company’s self- imposed deadline

Worth bearing in mind that, as far as I can see, the decision would not in fact rest with Streiff. He appears to be only one of a group of people reporting to Enders - and other people with relevant functions (like the Chief Finance Officer) report to the 'other' CEO, Gallois:-

"Furthermore the Board resolved new responsibilities and reporting lines at the top management level: Christian Streiff (CEO of Airbus), Jean-Paul Gut (COO for Marketing, Strategy and Global Development), Ralph Crosby (Chairman and CEO of EADS North America), and Francisco Fernández Sáinz (Head of Military Transport Aircraft Divison) will report to Tom Enders. Hans Peter Ring (CFO - Chief Financial Officer), François Auque (Head of Space Division), Fabrice Brégier (Head of Eurocopter Division), and Stefan Zoller (Head of Defence and Security Systems Division) will report to Louis Gallois. Jean Botti (Chief Technical Officer) and Jussi Itävuori (Head of Human Resources) will report to both CEOs."

http://www.eads.com/web/lang/en/1024...F00000040950509/8/29/41394298.html

One would expect that Streiff's input to the A350 question will be mainly on the production side and that the strategic decision will still be a matter of recommendations by Enders and/or Gallois, the two CEOs, to Lagardere and/or Bisschoff, the two Chairmen.

[Edited 2006-07-07 02:56:34]


"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16345 posts, RR: 86
Reply 21, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 17857 times:

Quoting Vega (Reply 23):
US Airways has ten 330-200s on firm order, which have the range for PHL-NRT/KIX and PHX/PDX-Japan+ Some of Asia. This order is unrelated to the 350s.

Based on a conversation in a thread a while back with Widebodyphotog, the 332 really doesn't have the range for PHL-NRT or KIX.

PHX, maybe. PDX obviously.

N


User currently offlineF4N From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 17764 times:

Quoting Mariner (Reply 22):
If it is the prevailing attitude that the present A350 doesn't cut the mustard would a cancellation - or a long-ish postponement - of the project be defined as "bad news"?

Mariner:

If what you suggest is perceived by investors, customers, politicians and the press as being symptomatic of continued difficulties at Airbus, than yes, it is bad news.

Bear in mind that I understand your point and I am not disputing the logic of it.
Unfortunately, rationale may not be the only factor which influences what Airbus
feels it has to do regarding A350 or anything else right now.

regards,

F4N


User currently offlineJAAlbert From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1491 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 17681 times:

$12 billion US for the A350? Isn't the Boeing investment in the 787 about 8 billion? Four billion less for a dramatically re-engineered plane. How will Airbus ever sell the A350 competively with the 787 with development costs so much higher?

User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 24, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 17609 times:

Quoting F4N (Reply 26):
If what you suggest is perceived by investors, customers, politicians and the press as being symptomatic of continued difficulties at Airbus, than yes, it is bad news.

As I see it, Airbus management are on a hiding to nothing with the A3-whatever. If they rush out an aeroplane proposal consisting of 'brochures and promises' the market will pan them for coming up with yet another hurried half-measure. If they announce either that the decision has been deferred, or that the project is still 'under consideration,' the market will conclude that they STILL have no credible answer to the 787/777 combination.

In my view the controlling interests (the French and German governments, acting through Lagardere and Daimler-Chrysler) had their opportunity to terminate the dreadful politicised 'dual-control' management setup that brought Airbus to its present situation, and introduce a proper commercial setup which could take effective decisions and speak with one voice.

Because neither side was willing to settle for one chairman and one CEO, consisting of the best people for the jobs regardless of nationality, they 'dropped the ball' yet again.



"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
25 Gigneil : You never know what they might launch with that $12b.... if its a comprehensive program to compete with the 787-9, 777-200ER, and 777-300ER then that
26 ER757 : I would have to say no, but with some reservations. The market for aircraft of this class is huge, 2000+ frames by most estimates. Many of the majors
27 Mariner : Absolutely, but that is a perception, and that could be true of any action they take. On the other hand, it could be seen as a dazzlingly bold move b
28 DL021 : Because they face further delays and further loss of consumer confidence in their ability to manage themselves or their own projects. No one believes
29 F4N : Mariner: Again sir, you are correct. Unfortunately, Airbus is under a level of scrutiny(and by default, pressure)which probably precludes the luxury
30 NAV20 : It's maybe more realistic to look at it in terms of annual expenditure. In round terms both major firms currently spend about $2B. p.a. on R & D. Tha
31 AirFrnt : This is pretty obviously a trial baloon. Between this and the sales outlook Airbus is still working on getting a handle on the operations issue. It r
32 Post contains links Aviator27 : US Airways will not cancel their A350 order. It was part of a deal when Airbus loaned $250 million to the bankrupt carrier to aid with its merger with
33 707lvr : Sorry, that's just piling on and looking for anything. Do they really expect the guy to have Airbus' corporate future for the next generation mapped
34 Mariner : I understand that completely, and I would guess that Airbus does. I don't think the people that run the organization are stupid. The critical "wrong"
35 Atmx2000 : I thought your position was that they should have gone with the original A350 despite the views of Udvar-Hazy and other airline industry executives.
36 Jacobin777 : Seeing what's been happening with Airbus the past few months, I think "stupid" is an apt word to describe management....isn't their stupidity part of
37 Mariner : That is still my position - isn't that what I have been saying? I don't think they should tell America West they can't have an aircraft. But it may b
38 Mariner : If you really believe the people running Airbus are "stupid" then there seems little point in having a conversation about it. I suggest - only sugges
39 Atmx2000 : When you say take themselves out of the race, I took it to mean not compete at all in that segment for now. I think that is likely the wisest decisio
40 Jacobin777 : as I metioned, "stupidity" was part of the reason....maybe 10-15%...... 1)hubris 2)denial 3)market circumstances 4)ignorance 5)bad luck 6)lack of vis
41 Mariner : That may be right. If Ikramerica is correct (#18) and America West would be happy with the A330 - souped up, perhaps - hey, why not? As I said, the c
42 B707Stu : That is exactly how I read this press release, lower the expectations and then over deliver to help restore some sense of progress. I'm sure behind t
43 Grantcv : The biggest problem with Airbus is that they have been in the mode of growing their family of airliners. They haven't given enough thought to the long
44 Post contains links Vega : The 330/200 has a specified range of 6,750 nmiles - see here: http://www.airbus.com/en/aircraftfam...0a340/a330-200/specifications.html The Great Cir
45 Post contains links Beaucaire : The article is just repeating basically old news- as one can check on the attached (french ) article from "Investir".. I just would wait until the 17t
46 Astuteman : mmm, let's see.. American American American Australian. Just a selection - not a European in sight. Perhaps a critique of the situation might have be
47 WingedMigrator : This may not be such bad news, as you seem to imply, if the cost escalation is associated with an increase in scope.... cost increases are certainly
48 Post contains images Atmx2000 : Well, it was nighttime in Europe based on the time stamps. By the way good morning.
49 Post contains images Astuteman : Damn - I'd hoped to get away with that one, too Mind you, some A-netters don't seem to sleep at any time...... I'd like to think the point stood anyw
50 NAV20 : Streiff undoubtedly has ability, Astuteman. But at this stage he has no experience in the aviation field. I suspect that he has been recruited for hi
51 Post contains images DistantHorizon : I really see no news at all here. But it seems many people loves to say, anyway, "another blow to Airbus". Let's get real. Airbus will lauch the new a
52 Scouseflyer : The only real story appears to be that Strieff will be starting his job next week and one of the first things he will have to do is vote in a go / no
53 Post contains images Astuteman : My comments weren't necessarily specific to Streiff. Whenever major paradigm shifts are required in a business, the guy who HAS to deliver them is th
54 Post contains images AutoThrust : Couldnt agree more. It will be very interesting and how the 787 can defend against it. Yes this is sad for us, the Aviation enthusiast we have to wai
55 Scouseflyer : Spot on - most people on here are aviation enthuasts and as we know we're a very impatient lot!
56 Post contains images Leelaw : Yet another chorus from the mournful John Leahy ballad: "Stevie, Stevie, Udvar-Hazy, Why Did You Hurt Me?" ...credence, shmeedence, we never should'v
57 Gregtx : Of course it's a blow---to the credibility of their project management. I'm not sure how anyone...even the press could view this differently. If every
58 Stitch : It ended up being way off market in the end, but when launched, it was exactly what some of the market wanted and could have had 787-level orders fro
59 Post contains images F4N : Astuteman: You probably won't see them around either since there aren't alot of positives for Airbus to be had here. Although I am US, my interest in
60 Post contains links Scouseflyer : Well Strieff's been confirmed in the job : http://www.airbus.com/en/presscentre...6_07_07_streiff_president_ceo.html Get reading those proposals Chris
61 DeltaDC9 : I wonder if they need either. They set an expectation of an announcement at the airshow. If this was not a blow, then neither was Boeing not making 2
62 Post contains images RAPCON : Well whether or not a "blow" will happen (and we all know about having those expectations, eh ) is highly speculative. Let's all just take a step back
63 Post contains images Johnny : @ NAV20 "However, it's difficult to see how it would be sufficient for Airbus to develop TWO new aeroplanes from scratch (787 and 777 competitors), AN
64 Post contains images Astuteman : It certainly is   . (It's certainly not because I think I'm "smart" in some way ) Regards[Edited 2006-07-07 15:18:22]
65 Dutchjet : Lets make a very long story as short as possible: 1. Is a delay to the revised A350 launch a good thing? NO. Airbus wants and needs to get moving with
66 F14ATomcat : You know...... It is very likely that they (EADS) are not ready to produce anything like the composite fuselage sections Boeing has been working on.
67 DIA : True, NW loves their A330s...and the pax seem to as well. Though, NW has ordered up to 68 787s, with 18 firm right now. What is their plan for the A3
68 Coa747 : I think everyone agrees that Airbus needs to take time to design the right plane. But time is also against them. The longer the launch is delayed for
69 TP313 : What many people in this board fail to understand is that the A350 wasn't just about competing with the 787, but the core of a strategy to counter Bo
70 Stitch : I imagine in the short term, they will do just that, then down the road as the A330s reach retirement age, replace them with 787s. True, but as I not
71 United787 : I agree with most here in that this is a good thing. Better to wait and get it right, I would wait a year or two. Who knows, they might come back with
72 Ikramerica : Well, it's like talleying the votes for Earth President and declaring a winner before the robot polls even open...
73 BoomBoom : Is the rear pressure bulkhead a large scale composite structure? Is the composite tail cone of the A380 pressurized?
74 Post contains images MaxQ2351 : You have GOT to be kidding me!!! I would agree that the A330-300 works well with them, but the 332 seems to be one of their biggest mistakes. When NW
75 TP313 : AFAIK it is quite large, something about 3m in diameter. I for sure couldn't hold it in my hands! In what concerns the diferences of conception betwe
76 DIA : Well, apparently they are still waiting for....what??? Money? How about trading those A330s against some 777s if they are in such need so shortly? If
77 Stitch : Fair enough. I don't fly NW, but I have seen the daily 747s and DC-10s from SEA, PDX, and SFO that served NRT and AMS replaced with A330-200s so I as
78 BoomBoom : The aft section of the 787 fuselage is about 18 feet in diameter 38 feet in length (5.4X11.5 m), quite a difference in scale. If making pressurized c
79 TP313 : This was answred by me in the post above:
80 Ken777 : I'm in the camp the believes that Airbus should go with both the 350 and 370. The 350 is still important because it provides a smaller plane than the
81 BoomBoom : This explains whay they went with Al-Li for the A350, it doesn't explain why they said the 787 composite fuselage is unsafe.
82 Gigneil : They had no A330-200s on order. They chose to get some. I think the A330-200 is one of their best decisions ever. It helped them weather a huge downt
83 Stitch : F.U.D. To generate F(ear) U(ncertainty) and D(oubt) within the airline community as to whether Boeing could pull it off, period, and if so, as well a
84 Mariner : Since I don't know what that has to do with John Leahy, I assume it is a dig at me (?) Okay. Whatever rocks your boat. Since they have not formally a
85 Post contains images Astuteman : But only if I predict that only Europeans will vote for said winner, and then find out that (contrary to my belief) the majority of Americans already
86 Gigneil : The still air distance via airways between PHL-NRT is much longer than that, and with winds aloft could easily be farther than that. NW and US' weak
87 BoomBoom : You seem to have undercut your own argument.
88 MaxQ2351 : I certainly hope so......but I'd think the 787-9 would be a better fit??? But, I guess it's just your opinion against mine on that matter!! They got
89 Post contains links and images Jacobin777 : the A330's are doing what the need to for the most part.. MyAviation.net:Photographer Jacobin777 Their incoming 787's should take care of the routes
90 Gigneil : Um, get planes that work for them? Which is what they did. What the hell are you talking about? The 333 has worked out splendidly on their somewhat l
91 Stitch : It would definitely work, but if you believe that a 777-sized plane is the right one for NW's trans-Pacific operations, the 787-10 will be the closes
92 474218 : I seriously doubt it, Airbus has never touted it. The tail cone is aft of the pressure bulkhead, thereby unpressurized.
93 Gigneil : The rear pressure bulkhead of the A380 is, in fact, fully composite. N
94 474218 : Thanks, I would love to see it up close.
95 Post contains links and images Gigneil : This is about as close as I can get you. http://www.eads.com/web/lang/en/1024...F00000000400004/1/83/41142831.html N
96 Christao17 : AF - Your post was one of the most intelligent, thoughtful posts I've read on this board for a long time. One sign of that: nobody responded to it in
97 ER757 : Just a minute there Astuteman, I think you either mis-understood my post or deliberately took a quote out of context. I was actually DEFENDING the Ai
98 Post contains images MaxQ2351 : The 333 works fine for them in their European routes, the 332 does not even come close to the bar set by the 777 on TransPac routes. Ugh......did we
99 474218 : Thanks, I think that is an excellent use of composites structure. Kudos to Airbus.
100 Keesje : Why compare the A332 vs 772ER? Many airlines buy them both supplementing each other. One could argue using the 772ER on the Atlantic is a waste of mo
101 Stitch : I believe MaxQ2351 is arguing that NW is leaving too much payload (be it passengers or cargo) behind because it is operating A332s on Trans-Pacific ro
102 CX747 : After reading many of the posts, I'd like to know if Mariner went to the same school that Bill Clinton did. Please define what "sex" is. The "blow" to
103 Mariner : So - you think that the new CEO should not be given time to evaluate what his company is making and selling? That to allow this time is a "new" blow?
104 CX747 : Do I think that the new CEO should be given time? Yes, I do think that he should be given time. With that being said, it just seems more and more like
105 Mariner : Okay, you think it is a blow. I don't. And I certainly don't think it is a "new" blow, which was my basic point. I don't see that another couple of w
106 CX747 : We can agree to disagree on this point. Playing word games though has never been a favorite pastime of mine. Their are negative conotations to Airbus
107 MaxQ2351 : Wow..... that pretty much hits the nail on the head!! Couldn't have said it better myself!! -Max
108 CX747 : Do we know what kind of load factors NW has on its Trans-Pacific flights? I would rather see NW leave a few on the ground than constantly be lugging e
109 MaxQ2351 : During the summer, NW almost always has 100% full flights, DTW-NRT, MSP-NRT, MSP-NGO. I can only speak for the 747-400 routes.....I don't know about
110 Post contains images Astuteman : Hey, Peace ER757 If you read MY post carefully, that was EXACTLY why I picked that particular piece of text. I was making a point that where one indi
111 Post contains links Vega : Airbus set to ask for more A350 aid: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/mai...t=/money/2006/07/09/ixcitytop.html
112 Post contains images Jacobin777 : thanks for the link.. all this state aid is getting a bit digusting.. they need to grow up and stop their blood clot crying...
113 Trex8 : I want to know how much RLI Rolls will be asking for for the new Trent versions necessary for these planes.
114 Stitch : I admit I am still confused by what, exactly, "launch aid" entails. Everything I have read - both in US and EU papers, mind you - is that the project
115 Post contains links Trex8 : http://www.raes.org.uk/raes/pdfs/Trade_War_Full.pdf see page 5. also from a previous thread where someone actually found the original EU documents Art
116 Post contains images NAV20 : I wonder which controversy will be settled first on here - the repayability of launch aid, or the existence of God...   Prior to 1992 all sorts of ar
117 ER757 : Thanks for the clarification - sorry for any mis-understanding.
118 Stitch : Thanks NAV20. I had read the original "treaty language" which was about as clear as mud due to my rusty "bureacracese" legacy skills. Your summation m
119 Baroque : You can have a pretty informed guess from: House of Commons Trade and Industry Committee The UK Aerospace Industry Fifteenth Report of Session 2004ï
120 Post contains images NAV20 : Very possible, Baroque.   The thing to remember, though, is that all sorts of deals were done before 1992, but since then the EU/USA agreed terms ha
121 Baroque : Yes BUT: Two buts. The first is the data quoted on investment and repayments to GoUK are 1982 to 2004. If you look at the 2000 data that suggests rat
122 Trex8 : NAV20, I'm no accountant but I run a business with several million USD revenue a year but if the 92 terms allow a rate of interest for most of the RL
123 NAV20 : That's where things are out of kilter between us, Baroque. Pre-1992 there may well have been an open-ended royalty system that might have returned a
124 Glacote : Few points: 1) This is a trial balloon - see what potential customers say... 2) Only the announcement might be deferred - the engineers are probably s
125 HPAEAA : US's CEO Doug Parker had stated previously that the A330's that were ordered at the time of the merger were being purchased to replace the 767's that
126 Post contains links BoomBoom : There is no evidence to support this. They also said that the new Boeing twinjet could be grounded “because of a scratch in the paint”. http://ww
127 Baroque : Well you could be correct, but I can find Royalty payments and I cannot find where they have ceased in post 92 agreements. I cannot find where they s
128 NAV20 : Hard to escape the conclusion that Airbus management are thinking along the same lines. In essence, desperately hoping that the 787 will somehow fail
129 Jacobin777 : would that be their proposed "A370"?
130 Post contains links Baroque : This is a quotation from: http://194.128.65.4/pa/cm200405/cmhansrd/cm050324/debtext/50324-16.htm "EU/US trade discussions about large civil aircraft
131 Post contains links Mariner : ??? http://europa.eu.int/rapid/pressRele...&aged=0&language=EN&guiLanguage=en "Airbus pays royalties to governments over the entire life of the aircr
132 Post contains images NAV20 : Are we to take it that the casual use of the word 'every' by a back-bench MP ('Mark Tami (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab)') constitutes Holy Writ, Baroque? O
133 Baroque : Hi Mariner, thanks for the TansTasman rescue, first the glorious Bledisloe and now this, how shall I repay! I think I found that interesting document
134 Post contains images Astuteman : When it comes to "repayable launch investment", there'll always be a way on A-net. There's too much at stake with respect to the posture that is take
135 NAV20 : I reckon yes, Jacobin777.
136 Post contains images Jacobin777 : got ya'.. thank you very much...
137 NAV20 : Baroque, mariner, if you look back at #116, you will find that I was refuting the oft-made assertion that launch aid doesn't need to be repaid. Making
138 Mariner : Why do you drag me into places that I have not gone? I provided a piece of research for Baroque that he said he could not find - and that is all. Del
139 Post contains images NAV20 : Sincere apologies for jumping the gun, Mariner. Know the feeling - if you look back to Post 116, that's all I was trying to do!
140 Baroque : Too much of that would indeed be dangerous, see some questions I just asked on the Leapfrogging thread.
141 Baroque : YES, INDEED, SEE LAST ANSWER/DIFFICULT TO TELL, DONT KNOW YET. That is yes, A32x has repaid and is continuing to pay Royalties. I cannot find direct
142 Atmx2000 : Airbus's claims of creating so many US jobs are likely a misrepresentation. Perhaps 120,000 US workers touch some aspect of the Airbus programs, but
143 Baroque : Indeed, that is why I reworded the material to make the link less direct. We cannot be sure about the number or how directly Airbus is the their exis
144 Ikramerica : And if they are suppliers for aerospace, they would likely supply any manufacturer around the world who accepted their bid. I admire Airbus's efforts
145 Glacote : My recollection is that the latest flying A388 are
146 NAV20 : Sorry, Glacote, didn't make myself clear. My point was that, given the glacial pace of WTO proceedings, neither side is likely to win or lose for a l
147 Post contains links BoomBoom : Well your recollections are not evidence. How about a source? That's not the way FI reported it. http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...osite+claims+
148 Baroque : Do you know that to be the case? If so, from where? All I can find is lists of complaints and a statement that the WTO expects to complete hearings b
149 Astuteman : I wouldn't bet on it not happening for that reason, though (rigthly or wrongly..). Regards
150 SunriseValley : The 787-8 is overweight when compared to Boeing's target weight for it but it is underweight in so far as Boeing's guarantee's to the airlines that h
151 Trex8 : thats great, where did you hear/read that?
152 Keesje : Isn't it about time some A350 info starts leaking, FAB is next week..[Edited 2006-07-11 14:45:19]
153 SunriseValley : It was in a statement by, I believe, Mike Bair about a month or more ago. Sorry I did not bookmark it at the time
154 SunriseValley : That is a still air distance with no winds and for full passenger load. Realistically this will be reduced to something like 6000nm westbound, probab
155 AirFrnt : Keesje, At this point, given the whispers from Airbus that the 370 decision would not be made in time for the airshow, I think it's 50-50 that the pl
156 Post contains links Keesje : Little drips from a guy who knows, Finnairs fleetmanager: http://today.reuters.com/stocks/Quot...INNAIR-AIRBUS-CORRECTED.XML&rpc=66 Visuri expects th
157 Stitch : I wonder if Airbus is just planning to stretch the current A358/A359 fuselage and improve the wings, either as the only change or as the lower half of
158 Keesje : Maybe Some Chineese wisedom would be in place here but you get the point I guess
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