Eatmybologna From France, joined Apr 2005, 368 posts, RR: 0 Reply 1, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 3117 times:
Well, I hope that GE will jump on board for the likes of airlines such as AF and others that only prefer the brand. It also sounds as though Airbus is not that far into detailing the specifications of the A350 as GE claims to not yet know enough about the plane to decide on entering the market.
E-M-B
Isn't knowledge more than just the acquisition of information? Shouldn't the acquired information be correct?
787engineer From United States, joined Dec 2005, 572 posts, RR: 16 Reply 4, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 3035 times:
Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 3):
Not much new there. The question still is if they can get GE to bite on building them a new engine.
I don't see GE biting until the plane is launched, and we can all see the interest in this new "A350/A370". Airbus needs to show it can sell the plane first. . . especially if they "cancel" the current A350. If Airbus picks up orders at a fair pace and it looks the plane will be qutie succesful, GE will put the $$ in for a new engine. Airbus already has its engine manufacturer in RR to launch the plane.
Keesje From Netherlands, joined Apr 2001, 9877 posts, RR: 52 Reply 5, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 3035 times:
Quoting Eatmybologna (Reply 1): Well, I hope that GE will jump on board for the likes of airlines such as AF and others that only prefer the brand. It also sounds as though Airbus is not that far into detailing the specifications of the A350 as GE claims to not yet know enough about the plane to decide on entering the market.
For GE there is more at stake then the A350 design. They are the lead provider for the 777 and invested a lot in the 787.
No doubt they will not leave the market to RR. They will probably come up with a great engine in the GE90 - GENX tradition that might also be offered on the A380 later on.
Interresting detail; GE & RR created two different solutions to combine optimal shape, strenght & low weight for the fan blades. GE carbon blades with titanium leading edges, RR developped a process to create hollow titanium blades.
Eatmybologna From France, joined Apr 2005, 368 posts, RR: 0 Reply 6, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 2906 times:
Quoting Keesje (Reply 5): GE carbon blades with titanium leading edges
Keesje, sorry for the stupid question, however here goes. Are they carbon fiber blades with titanium leading edges? Or a carbon steel alloy? I can just imagine how hot the blades must get, especially near the major diameter. I'm not sure how hot though, and can't imagine carbon fiber holding up to the heat.
Thanks,
E-M-B
Isn't knowledge more than just the acquisition of information? Shouldn't the acquired information be correct?
Stitch From United States, joined Jul 2005, 15989 posts, RR: 64 Reply 7, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 2868 times:
So the hints seem to continue to lead toward a 777-sized competitor.
I am sure GE will enter (since they would also have something to offer to re-engine 777-200s), and might very well do so under the Engine Alliance initiative (since it would be a good wedge to get the EU to rescind the "four engine only" rule) to both get the P&W 409x 777 re-engine market and to power later variants of the A380 family.
Ikramerica From United States, joined May 2005, 18437 posts, RR: 60 Reply 8, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 2792 times:
From article: "Airbus also may disclose an initial order for A350 at the show, which opens July 17, said the people."
GE is likely not sold on stretching itself any thinner than they need to. With the 787, the 748, the 777LR family, the EA 380 engines, and the next CFM engines for the 320NG and 737RS, they'll be selling plenty of engines. They looked to be willing to do the 350 in the old form because they were within the same family as the 787 and 748 engines, but now that might not be the case.
Having lost out on the 777 and 748 exclusivity deals (betting on the wrong horse with the 340 series), RR is in a more urgent position to establish themselves with Airbus-centric carriers.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
F14D4ever From United States, joined May 2005, 316 posts, RR: 4 Reply 9, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 2680 times:
Quoting Eatmybologna (Reply 6): Are they carbon fiber blades with titanium leading edges? Or a carbon steel alloy? I can just imagine how hot the blades must get, especially near the major diameter. I'm not sure how hot though, and can't imagine carbon fiber holding up to the heat.
The blades are in fact carbon fiber. They're well-proven on the GE90. We're talking about fan blades, not hot section airfoils.
AirFrnt From United States, joined Jul 2004, 2520 posts, RR: 39 Reply 10, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 2662 times:
Quoting 787engineer (Reply 4):
I don't see GE biting until the plane is launched, and we can all see the interest in this new "A350/A370". Airbus needs to show it can sell the plane first. . . especially if they "cancel" the current A350. If Airbus picks up orders at a fair pace and it looks the plane will be qutie succesful, GE will put the $$ in for a new engine. Airbus already has its engine manufacturer in RR to launch the plane.
Launching a plane with only one engine choice after the cat fight that was the 787 engine selection doesn't look good.
Quoting Keesje (Reply 5):
No doubt they will not leave the market to RR. They will probably come up with a great engine in the GE90 - GENX tradition that might also be offered on the A380 later on.
Sure, there is plenty of doubt. If GE thinks that the market for the 370 is too small, or sees the opportunity to solo bid the 787-11 (a single member of the 787 family) I could easily see them passing on a 350/370 engine. It's also quite possible that GE is miffed at the amount of work they did making the bleedless GEnx work for the 350.
Keesje From Netherlands, joined Apr 2001, 9877 posts, RR: 52 Reply 11, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 2608 times:
Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 10): It's also quite possible that GE is miffed at the amount of work they did making the bleedless GEnx work for the 350.
Yes, and for the 747-8, launched before the A350.
Curious what position PW takes in all this GE vs RR action.
Will they come up with a PW4000 successor? What if a larger GE engine is clearly better then the GP7000 series for e.g. the A370/A380? (& this is not unlikely..)
DAYflyer From United States, joined Sep 2004, 3807 posts, RR: 8 Reply 12, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 2564 times:
Quoting 787engineer (Reply 4): don't see GE biting until the plane is launched, and we can all see the interest in this new "A350/A370". Airbus needs to show it can sell the plane first. . . especially if they "cancel" the current A350. If Airbus picks up orders at a fair pace and it looks the plane will be qutie succesful, GE will put the $$ in for a new engine. Airbus already has its engine manufacturer in RR to launch the plane.
Makes sense to me.
And if Airbus did have a new launch customer for the new A-350, they would certainly announce it to offset the current stream of turbulent PR they have run into of late.
AIRLINE INDUSTRY INFORMATION-(C)1997-2006 M2 COMMUNICATIONS LTD
"Finnish airline Finnair Plc said on Monday (20 March) that its new generation Airbus A350 aircraft would be fitted with Trent 1700 engines, manufactured by Rolls-Royce.
Finnair has fixed orders for nine wide-bodied aircraft and options for four more, the company said.
PolymerPlane From United States, joined May 2006, 812 posts, RR: 3 Reply 15, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 2461 times:
Quoting Keesje (Thread starter): I like the sound of those new Trents. Also talk about a launch customer to be announced soon.
Astuteman From United Kingdom (England), joined Jan 2005, 6235 posts, RR: 88 Reply 16, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 2441 times:
AirFrnt From United States, joined Jul 2004, 2520 posts, RR: 39 Reply 17, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 2432 times:
Quoting Keesje (Reply 11):
Curious what position PW takes in all this GE vs RR action.
Will they come up with a PW4000 successor? What if a larger GE engine is clearly better then the GP7000 series for e.g. the A370/A380? (& this is not unlikely..)
PolymerPlane From United States, joined May 2006, 812 posts, RR: 3 Reply 18, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 2396 times:
Quoting Astuteman (Reply 16): I've found reading the article always helps....
Quote:-
"Airbus also may disclose an initial order for A350 at the show, which opens July 17, said the people".
(if it helps it's immediately before the sub-heading - "$10 Billion")
I read the article and honestly missed it thanks Astuteman. Regardless, I though A350 has already had orders, something like 100 airframes. I do not know what kind of "initial" this is. Probably just for publicity stunt
Stitch From United States, joined Jul 2005, 15989 posts, RR: 64 Reply 19, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 2293 times:
Quoting WSOY (Reply 14): Have I missed something, or am I just stupid again? Is Finnair not the launch customer of March, 2006? Or are there more Trents than this one?
Well if the new Airbus plane is larger and heavier, the Trent 1700 as designed won't be able to power it. Now RR may keep that designation for the new engine, or they may call it a Trent 1XXX
I'm not so sure. They didn't think it was worth fighting to compete on the 787 program. Yes, they could adopt the PW4000-series to the A370 which would probably lower the development costs, but they seem to be content sticking with military powerplants per statements from their chairman back when Boeing announced GE and RR power for the 787.
Ikramerica From United States, joined May 2005, 18437 posts, RR: 60 Reply 20, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 2260 times:
Quoting Keesje (Reply 11): Yes, and for the 747-8, launched before the A350.
On what planet?
The 747-8 was officially launched months after the 350, and unofficially, the 350 was marketed far longer than the 747-8 with an engine maker attached to the project.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
Keesje From Netherlands, joined Apr 2001, 9877 posts, RR: 52 Reply 21, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 2260 times:
Pratt & Whitney proposed the PWEXX for the 7e7
- a 10-stage high-pressure compressor, ratio of 20:1,
- a new Talon (technology for affordable low nox) combustor
- two-stage high-pressure turbine based on the PW4090 (777)
- integrally bladed rotors rather than blades attached to each disk
don´t know if they continued development / prototyping after GE & PW were selected for the 7e7, maybe Lightsaber knows..
AirbusA6 From United Kingdom (England), joined Apr 2005, 1140 posts, RR: 0 Reply 22, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 2196 times:
The whole situation is a bit of a shambles really.
As far as I can recall GE signed up first on the original A350, and secured the engine rights to all early A350s. RR signed up later, with Finnair their first customer.
Now with the new A350, those customers who bought GE A350s might find that the plane has changed, and the engine option has gone! Or that they can still get GEnx powered lower versions, but not for the larger 777 rival version.
What a dogs dinner, and a paradise for the lawyers...
it's the bus to stansted (now renamed national express a4 to ruin my username)
787engineer From United States, joined Dec 2005, 572 posts, RR: 16 Reply 23, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 2167 times:
Quoting Keesje (Reply 21): Pratt & Whitney proposed the PWEXX for the 7e7
- a 10-stage high-pressure compressor, ratio of 20:1,
- a new Talon (technology for affordable low nox) combustor
- two-stage high-pressure turbine based on the PW4090 (777)
- integrally bladed rotors rather than blades attached to each disk
don�t know if they continued development / prototyping after GE & PW were selected for the 7e7, maybe Lightsaber knows..
The GenX was the better engine. IIRC it had a slightly larger fan and a compressor pressure ratio of 23:1 (also a 10-stage compressor). I'm not sure about the integrally bladed rotors though.
DfwRevolution From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 24, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 2125 times:
Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 10): Launching a plane with only one engine choice after the cat fight that was the 787 engine selection doesn't look good.
All things considered, the 787 engine selection went very smoothly.
Compared to the true bloodbath of the three-way fight between GE, Pratt, and Rolls Royce over the 777, I don't think Boeing has any regrets at this point.
Trex8 From United States, joined Nov 2002, 2913 posts, RR: 19 Reply 25, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 2031 times:
Quoting 787engineer (Reply 23): The GenX was the better engine. IIRC it had a slightly larger fan and a compressor pressure ratio of 23:1 (also a 10-stage compressor). I'm not sure about the integrally bladed rotors though.
I thought the reason Pratt lost was because it was the highest risk as it had the least in common with existing products unlike the GE and RR offerings which had some part of the new engine based on an existing product.
26 Stitch: I tend to think that is what I read, as well, and P&W didn't want to spend the money necessary to prototype the design enough to show it would work o
27 WSOY: Ok, thanks for the info Stitch! ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Would a temporary "working designation" for
28 Keesje: A slip of the tongue by an enthousiastic Yemenia Chairman Captain Abdul-Khaliq al-Qadi it seems. His corporate communication person busy on the phone
29 DfwRevolution: I assume this is firming their previously announced commitment for ten A350, from this March? Yemenia-Yemen Airways to order up to 10 A350 I think th
30 Baroque: And to power the A350-TBA we have the Trent 1700-ABF. Anything but frozen. The RR pages suggest that they have about a year to figure out what they a
31 Astuteman: You would assume they must know something of the final specifications of the "A350" in order to do this at this time, particularly after their earlie
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thanks Astuteman. Regardless, I though A350 has already had orders, something like 100 airframes. I do not know what kind of "initial" this is. Probably just for publicity stunt
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