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Airbus A350 Engine Rolls Royce Deal  
User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 6963 times:

Airbus apperently signed an engine deal with RR for the A350.

After finishing the 787 & A380 initial engine development they can implement the lessons learned into this new engine.



I like the sound of those new Trents. Also talk about a launch customer to be announced soon.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...601087&sid=a5UHOvm3pS5A&refer=home

31 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineEatmybologna From France, joined Apr 2005, 412 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 6899 times:

Well, I hope that GE will jump on board for the likes of airlines such as AF and others that only prefer the brand. It also sounds as though Airbus is not that far into detailing the specifications of the A350 as GE claims to not yet know enough about the plane to decide on entering the market.

E-M-B



Isn't knowledge more than just the acquisition of information? Shouldn't the acquired information be correct?
User currently offlineWINGS From Portugal, joined May 2005, 2831 posts, RR: 68
Reply 2, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 6893 times:

Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
Also talk about a launch customer to be announced soon.

Hi Keesje, I can not find a reference to this statement.

Regards,
Wings



Aviation Is A Passion.
User currently offlineAirFrnt From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2826 posts, RR: 42
Reply 3, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 6872 times:

Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
I like the sound of those new Trents. Also talk about a launch customer to be announced soon.

Couldn't find anything in the article about it, but the question is how many customers Airbus can retain from the current A350 campaigns.

Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
Airbus apperently signed an engine deal with RR for the A350.

Not much new there. The question still is if they can get GE to bite on building them a new engine.


User currently offline787engineer From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 572 posts, RR: 15
Reply 4, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 6817 times:

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 3):

Not much new there. The question still is if they can get GE to bite on building them a new engine.

I don't see GE biting until the plane is launched, and we can all see the interest in this new "A350/A370". Airbus needs to show it can sell the plane first. . . especially if they "cancel" the current A350. If Airbus picks up orders at a fair pace and it looks the plane will be qutie succesful, GE will put the $$ in for a new engine. Airbus already has its engine manufacturer in RR to launch the plane.


User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 6817 times:

Quoting Eatmybologna (Reply 1):
Well, I hope that GE will jump on board for the likes of airlines such as AF and others that only prefer the brand. It also sounds as though Airbus is not that far into detailing the specifications of the A350 as GE claims to not yet know enough about the plane to decide on entering the market.

For GE there is more at stake then the A350 design. They are the lead provider for the 777 and invested a lot in the 787.

No doubt they will not leave the market to RR. They will probably come up with a great engine in the GE90 - GENX tradition that might also be offered on the A380 later on.

http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?C...bd277c-476b-4aed-b85a-7811412c497c

Wings: seventh paragraph bottom.

Interresting detail; GE & RR created two different solutions to combine optimal shape, strenght & low weight for the fan blades. GE carbon blades with titanium leading edges, RR developped a process to create hollow titanium blades.


User currently offlineEatmybologna From France, joined Apr 2005, 412 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 6688 times:

Quoting Keesje (Reply 5):
GE carbon blades with titanium leading edges

Keesje, sorry for the stupid question, however here goes. Are they carbon fiber blades with titanium leading edges? Or a carbon steel alloy? I can just imagine how hot the blades must get, especially near the major diameter. I'm not sure how hot though, and can't imagine carbon fiber holding up to the heat.

Thanks,

E-M-B



Isn't knowledge more than just the acquisition of information? Shouldn't the acquired information be correct?
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30859 posts, RR: 86
Reply 7, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 6650 times:
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So the hints seem to continue to lead toward a 777-sized competitor.

I am sure GE will enter (since they would also have something to offer to re-engine 777-200s), and might very well do so under the Engine Alliance initiative (since it would be a good wedge to get the EU to rescind the "four engine only" rule) to both get the P&W 409x 777 re-engine market and to power later variants of the A380 family.


User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21500 posts, RR: 60
Reply 8, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 6574 times:

From article: "Airbus also may disclose an initial order for A350 at the show, which opens July 17, said the people."

GE is likely not sold on stretching itself any thinner than they need to. With the 787, the 748, the 777LR family, the EA 380 engines, and the next CFM engines for the 320NG and 737RS, they'll be selling plenty of engines. They looked to be willing to do the 350 in the old form because they were within the same family as the 787 and 748 engines, but now that might not be the case.

Having lost out on the 777 and 748 exclusivity deals (betting on the wrong horse with the 340 series), RR is in a more urgent position to establish themselves with Airbus-centric carriers.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineF14D4ever From United States of America, joined May 2005, 319 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 6462 times:

Quoting Eatmybologna (Reply 6):
Are they carbon fiber blades with titanium leading edges? Or a carbon steel alloy? I can just imagine how hot the blades must get, especially near the major diameter. I'm not sure how hot though, and can't imagine carbon fiber holding up to the heat.

The blades are in fact carbon fiber. They're well-proven on the GE90. We're talking about fan blades, not hot section airfoils.



"He is risen, as He said."
User currently offlineAirFrnt From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2826 posts, RR: 42
Reply 10, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 6444 times:

Quoting 787engineer (Reply 4):

I don't see GE biting until the plane is launched, and we can all see the interest in this new "A350/A370". Airbus needs to show it can sell the plane first. . . especially if they "cancel" the current A350. If Airbus picks up orders at a fair pace and it looks the plane will be qutie succesful, GE will put the $$ in for a new engine. Airbus already has its engine manufacturer in RR to launch the plane.

Launching a plane with only one engine choice after the cat fight that was the 787 engine selection doesn't look good.

Quoting Keesje (Reply 5):

No doubt they will not leave the market to RR. They will probably come up with a great engine in the GE90 - GENX tradition that might also be offered on the A380 later on.

Sure, there is plenty of doubt. If GE thinks that the market for the 370 is too small, or sees the opportunity to solo bid the 787-11 (a single member of the 787 family) I could easily see them passing on a 350/370 engine. It's also quite possible that GE is miffed at the amount of work they did making the bleedless GEnx work for the 350.


User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 6390 times:

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 10):
It's also quite possible that GE is miffed at the amount of work they did making the bleedless GEnx work for the 350.

Yes, and for the 747-8, launched before the A350.

Curious what position PW takes in all this GE vs RR action.

Will they come up with a PW4000 successor? What if a larger GE engine is clearly better then the GP7000 series for e.g. the A370/A380? (& this is not unlikely..)


User currently offlineDAYflyer From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 3807 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 6346 times:

Quoting 787engineer (Reply 4):
don't see GE biting until the plane is launched, and we can all see the interest in this new "A350/A370". Airbus needs to show it can sell the plane first. . . especially if they "cancel" the current A350. If Airbus picks up orders at a fair pace and it looks the plane will be qutie succesful, GE will put the $$ in for a new engine. Airbus already has its engine manufacturer in RR to launch the plane.

Makes sense to me.

And if Airbus did have a new launch customer for the new A-350, they would certainly announce it to offset the current stream of turbulent PR they have run into of late.



One Nation Under God
User currently offlineNWDC10 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 6305 times:

That's a darn good looking jet engine which is my fav part of commercial aircraft-the jet engine. Robert NWDC10

User currently offlineWSOY From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 6272 times:

Have I missed something, or am I just stupid again? Is Finnair not the launch customer of March, 2006? Or are there more Trents than this one?

/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

AIRLINE INDUSTRY INFORMATION-(C)1997-2006 M2 COMMUNICATIONS LTD

"Finnish airline Finnair Plc said on Monday (20 March) that its new generation Airbus A350 aircraft would be fitted with Trent 1700 engines, manufactured by Rolls-Royce.

Finnair has fixed orders for nine wide-bodied aircraft and options for four more, the company said.

The value of the order is nearly EUR400m. "

http://www.allbusiness.com/periodicals/article/874470-1.html

More info of the launch from the RR site:
http://www.rolls-royce.com/media/showPR.jsp?PR_ID=40318

[Edited 2006-07-07 22:39:48]

User currently offlinePolymerPlane From United States of America, joined May 2006, 991 posts, RR: 3
Reply 15, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 6243 times:

Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
I like the sound of those new Trents. Also talk about a launch customer to be announced soon.



Quoting Keesje (Reply 5):
Wings: seventh paragraph bottom.

Still can't find it Keesje. Hasn't the A350 already had launch customers? What about the 100+ orders Airbus has allegedly gathered?

Cheers,
PP



One day there will be 100% polymer plane
User currently offlineAstuteman From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 9997 posts, RR: 96
Reply 16, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 6223 times:
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Quoting PolymerPlane (Reply 15):
Still can't find it Keesje

I've found reading the article always helps.... Wink

Quote:-
"Airbus also may disclose an initial order for A350 at the show, which opens July 17, said the people".

(if it helps it's immediately before the sub-heading - "$10 Billion")

Regards


User currently offlineAirFrnt From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2826 posts, RR: 42
Reply 17, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 6214 times:

Quoting Keesje (Reply 11):

Curious what position PW takes in all this GE vs RR action.

Will they come up with a PW4000 successor? What if a larger GE engine is clearly better then the GP7000 series for e.g. the A370/A380? (& this is not unlikely..)

P&W is definitly a possibility.


User currently offlinePolymerPlane From United States of America, joined May 2006, 991 posts, RR: 3
Reply 18, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 6178 times:

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 16):
I've found reading the article always helps....

Quote:-
"Airbus also may disclose an initial order for A350 at the show, which opens July 17, said the people".

(if it helps it's immediately before the sub-heading - "$10 Billion")

I read the article and honestly missed it  Smile thanks Astuteman. Regardless, I though A350 has already had orders, something like 100 airframes. I do not know what kind of "initial" this is. Probably just for publicity stunt

Cheers,
PP



One day there will be 100% polymer plane
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30859 posts, RR: 86
Reply 19, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 6075 times:
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Quoting WSOY (Reply 14):
Have I missed something, or am I just stupid again? Is Finnair not the launch customer of March, 2006? Or are there more Trents than this one?

Well if the new Airbus plane is larger and heavier, the Trent 1700 as designed won't be able to power it. Now RR may keep that designation for the new engine, or they may call it a Trent 1XXX

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 17):
P&W is definitly a possibility.

I'm not so sure. They didn't think it was worth fighting to compete on the 787 program. Yes, they could adopt the PW4000-series to the A370 which would probably lower the development costs, but they seem to be content sticking with military powerplants per statements from their chairman back when Boeing announced GE and RR power for the 787.


User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21500 posts, RR: 60
Reply 20, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 6042 times:

Quoting Keesje (Reply 11):
Yes, and for the 747-8, launched before the A350.

On what planet?

The 747-8 was officially launched months after the 350, and unofficially, the 350 was marketed far longer than the 747-8 with an engine maker attached to the project.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 6042 times:

Pratt & Whitney proposed the PWEXX for the 7e7

- a 10-stage high-pressure compressor, ratio of 20:1,
- a new Talon (technology for affordable low nox) combustor
- two-stage high-pressure turbine based on the PW4090 (777)
- integrally bladed rotors rather than blades attached to each disk

don´t know if they continued development / prototyping after GE & PW were selected for the 7e7, maybe Lightsaber knows..


User currently offlineAirbusA6 From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 2012 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 5978 times:

The whole situation is a bit of a shambles really.

As far as I can recall GE signed up first on the original A350, and secured the engine rights to all early A350s. RR signed up later, with Finnair their first customer.

Now with the new A350, those customers who bought GE A350s might find that the plane has changed, and the engine option has gone! Or that they can still get GEnx powered lower versions, but not for the larger 777 rival version.

What a dogs dinner, and a paradise for the lawyers...



it's the bus to stansted (now renamed national express a4 to ruin my username)
User currently offline787engineer From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 572 posts, RR: 15
Reply 23, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 5949 times:

Quoting Keesje (Reply 21):
Pratt & Whitney proposed the PWEXX for the 7e7

- a 10-stage high-pressure compressor, ratio of 20:1,
- a new Talon (technology for affordable low nox) combustor
- two-stage high-pressure turbine based on the PW4090 (777)
- integrally bladed rotors rather than blades attached to each disk

don�t know if they continued development / prototyping after GE & PW were selected for the 7e7, maybe Lightsaber knows..

The GenX was the better engine. IIRC it had a slightly larger fan and a compressor pressure ratio of 23:1 (also a 10-stage compressor). I'm not sure about the integrally bladed rotors though.


User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 968 posts, RR: 51
Reply 24, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 5907 times:

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 10):
Launching a plane with only one engine choice after the cat fight that was the 787 engine selection doesn't look good.

All things considered, the 787 engine selection went very smoothly.

Compared to the true bloodbath of the three-way fight between GE, Pratt, and Rolls Royce over the 777, I don't think Boeing has any regrets at this point.


25 Trex8 : I thought the reason Pratt lost was because it was the highest risk as it had the least in common with existing products unlike the GE and RR offerin
26 Stitch : I tend to think that is what I read, as well, and P&W didn't want to spend the money necessary to prototype the design enough to show it would work o
27 WSOY : Ok, thanks for the info Stitch! ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Would a temporary "working designation" for
28 Post contains links and images Keesje : A slip of the tongue by an enthousiastic Yemenia Chairman Captain Abdul-Khaliq al-Qadi it seems. His corporate communication person busy on the phone
29 Post contains links DfwRevolution : I assume this is firming their previously announced commitment for ten A350, from this March? Yemenia-Yemen Airways to order up to 10 A350 I think th
30 Baroque : And to power the A350-TBA we have the Trent 1700-ABF. Anything but frozen. The RR pages suggest that they have about a year to figure out what they a
31 Astuteman : You would assume they must know something of the final specifications of the "A350" in order to do this at this time, particularly after their earlie
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