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Air Canada E175 VS Jazz CRJ-705  
User currently offlineSalomon From Canada, joined Jun 2006, 205 posts, RR: 0
Posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 8472 times:

Recently, Air Canada has been introducing all kind of mesures to cut fuel expenses and save money, from stripping the paint of a 767 to removing empty bottles from the airplane.

However, I still don't completely understand why Air Canada / Jazz have introduced 2 'similar' types of planes. If Air Canada had had ordered 1 type, the CRJ-705 (75 seats) or the E175 (73 seats), they could have saved easy buck$.

I understand ACE is trying to separate Air Canada and Air Canada Jazz. However, Jazz' staff is less paid than Air Canada' staff. Did Air Canada get a 'deal they could'nt refuse' from Embraer to be the launch custumer of the E175? In that case, why did they keep the CRJ-705?

The range of the CRJ-705 is greater than the E175 so it is used on routes like YYC-IAH and YYZ-SLC and also on shorter routes. The E175 is used only on short/medium routes like YYZ-EWR. So the logical thing would have been to order the CRJ-705, since it could do both type of jobs.

I was told that the E175s have had a few issues and have been renamed to E180 because of the 180 degree the pilot has to do when he comes back to the gate for a mechanical issue. On the other side, the CRJ-705s have had 'stick shakers' at FL350...

Ordering the 2 types mean 2 times more spare peaces, a different crew formation, 2

I was also told that customers find the CRJ-705 bumpy and the over-head bins too small.

So, why did Air Canada / Jazz order 2 similar types of aircrafts?


Takeoffs are optional; landings are mandatory.
17 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineGoBlue From Canada, joined Jun 2006, 216 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 8107 times:

I would tend to believe that there was some pressue to purchase canadian planes, and the CRJ 705 are not that bad of a plane, but some people do find them slightly bumpy.

I am also not sure of the agreements with labour at Jazz, and the problem with both companies operating the same plane woudl be rate of pay, and the integration of maintenance systems. I am not sure how they do this with the CRJ 200 at this moment.

Regards!

Jason


User currently offlineYOW From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 8071 times:

Quoting Salomon (Thread starter):
The E175 is used only on short/medium routes like YYZ-EWR. So the logical thing would have been to order the CRJ-705, since it could do both type of jobs.

YOW-MCO/FLL are about 3hrs long and operated with the E175 last winter. I think cabin comfort on a 175 is a lot more appealing for most people.

Quoting Salomon (Thread starter):
Ordering the 2 types mean 2 times more spare peaces, a different crew formation, 2

Well not exactly. AC and QK operate quite independently from one another. The 175 has 190 commonality for AC, while the 705 has commonality with the 100/200 for QK.

Quoting GoBlue (Reply 1):
I would tend to believe that there was some pressue to purchase canadian planes, and the CRJ 705 are not that bad of a plane, but some people do find them slightly bumpy.

I agree, I think there were some politics involved, but that wasn't the entire reason. By ordering some Canadian products, it kept those wanting a pro-Canadian product order happy. But also, the 705 allowed AC to drop all their small stations like YQR & YXE and hand them over entirely to Jazz = reduced costs. You won't likely ever see an E175 at YQR or YQB, but they are a common sight at most AC-crewed stations.


User currently offlineSLCUT2777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 4112 posts, RR: 9
Reply 3, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 8063 times:

Quoting YOW" class=quote target=_blank>YOW (Reply 2):
YOW-MCO/FLL are about 3hrs long and operated with the E175 last winter. I think cabin comfort on a 175 is a lot more appealing for most people.

I couldn't agree with you more! Ask AC-Jazz how their SLC-YYZ is doing with a CRJ-705? I bet they could compete with DL's MD-90 with an E-175. If AC were serious about the SLC market, they would pull the QK 705 and put the AC E-175 on this flight and let the route develop the way they know it can. Most people in SLC are discriminating financially with their travel budgets, especially for trips to Europe, and YYZ can offer a highly financially viable alternative to DL and JFK with a connection via YYZ.



DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
User currently offline9252fly From Canada, joined Sep 2005, 1401 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 7882 times:

One of the primary reasons for AC operating a E75 and Jazz the 705 is that it has everything to do with the restructuring of AC a few years ago. The deal the pilots at AC made during their negotiations was that if Jazz wanted to get rid of their 10 BAE 146 jets(heavier fuel burn and maintenance)and acquire up to 15 CRJ 705 aircraft(maximum seating 75 seats),then it would be a one-for-one arrangement,meaning AC would have to order 15 E175 jets. If the 705 was configured with more than 75 seats,AC pilots would then have the right to fly them(the 705 is a 900 that seats 88 in full economy). It made sense for AC to order the E75 as they would be placing a large order for the E190 that has a high degree of commonality with the E175,so they then have the ability to utilize the same pilot pool. In future,if Jazz wanted to add another 705,then AC would have to add another E175 to the fleet. So it really all comes down to the AC pilots scoping and protecting as much of their work as they could during the restructuring process. It's unlikely that you will see Jazz operating any more 705 aircraft,just prepare yourself for a large order of new DH3 and DH4 aircraft within the next year or so.

User currently offlineCRJ900 From Norway, joined Jun 2004, 2209 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 7413 times:
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IIRC there was a thread here some weeks ago where it was written that Jazz is looking for more flying on transborder routes...

Quoting 9252fly (Reply 5):
acquire up to 15 CRJ 705 aircraft(maximum seating 75 seats),then it would be a one-for-one arrangement,meaning AC would have to order 15 E175 jets.

Is this arrangement still active? Or can Jazz now take more CRJ705s without AC having to order more E175s?



Come, fly the prevailing winds with me
User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26636 posts, RR: 75
Reply 6, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 7409 times:

Quoting Salomon (Thread starter):
The range of the CRJ-705 is greater than the E175

No it isn't.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineSQ452 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 1123 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 7391 times:

All I can say is, after flying on US E170's the other day and being able to stand up for a change, I much rather prefer the ERJ175's to the CRJ's. the -700's are nice, but, wow that E170 was a gorgeous flight!


SIN > CVG > BOS
User currently offline9252fly From Canada, joined Sep 2005, 1401 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 7208 times:

Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 9):
Is this arrangement still active? Or can Jazz now take more CRJ705s without AC having to order more E175s?

My understanding is that Jazz could order more without AC ordering any additional E175 providing they "never" fly with an AC flight number. In other words they could only fly under contract to other airlines.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 10):
No it isn't

Again my understanding is the range of the 705(enhanced LR package from the 900)gives it a 200 additional nautical mile range over the E175(1800nm). On the other hand the E190 has more range(2200nm)than the 705(2000nm).


User currently offlineCGOJZ From Canada, joined Jun 2005, 50 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 7201 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 10):
No it isn't.

Air Canada themselves indicate the fully loaded range for an EMB175 is 1500nm, and a CRJ705 is 2000nm.


User currently offlineSkookum From Canada, joined Jul 2006, 115 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 7044 times:

AC should have picked up the A318.

Cheers
Skookum



Good flying
User currently offline9252fly From Canada, joined Sep 2005, 1401 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 6998 times:

Quoting Skookum (Reply 18):
AC should have picked up the A318.

I have a feeling you're going to find out why it's not choice!


User currently offlineGregtx From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 216 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 6443 times:

Actually, never found much of a difference between the two planes. A little wider on the 170 (and yeah..you can stand up)...but I'd take a mainline aircraft over either, anyday.

There is no magic with the E170---nice bird...but also 6-10% more expensive to operate according to AVITAS last quarter. That may come back to bite them until they get a performance improvement plan in place.

Makes no difference...the day of the 70 seater will dwindle fast as gas prices rise. Then only the larger of the Embraer's will makes sense (and apparently nothing from Bombardier).


User currently offlineGregtx From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 216 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 6322 times:

I'm sorry, they are reporting that CASM is 6%-10% more for the E70--not trip cost. But you are right that Embraer will 'admit' to 4% cost disadvantage on some sectors (they don't specify which ones). The 4% was reported on ATW online last month..or this month.

No doubt the junglejet has more room---but at a price.

Either one---I'm fine. Although the bathroom on the EMB is easier to stand in!


User currently offlinePlanemaker From Tuvalu, joined Aug 2003, 6281 posts, RR: 34
Reply 14, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 6309 times:

Quoting Gregtx (Reply 31):
I'm sorry, they are reporting that CASM is 6%-10% more for the E70--not trip cost.

I am not disputing what you say what AVITAS says... I am saying that they are wrong. With 8 more seats (and, now, up to 10 more seats) the E170 has better CASM. Naturally, if they are comparing both aircraft with only 70 seats then the CRJ will naturally have a bit better CASM...but then, at only 70-seats, the E170 will have superior pitch (and even greater comfort).

As I mentioned earlier, the greater room of the E170 does not come at a "price" as it is up to the airline to decide their strategy... greater pax comfort or... greater revenue from the E170. That option doesn't exist with the CRJ700.



Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
User currently offlineGregtx From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 216 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 6247 times:

AVITAS is pretty much the authority on gathering statistics on costing and valuation . And it's likely they know what they are calculating (seats, etc).

Add to that EMB will admit they are cheaper to operate (up to 4% on some routes)---I'm going to have to stick with AVITAS on this.

Economics go to Bomardier.
Comfort to Embraer.

That's how I see it. No big deal. I'll stick with my original comments.

Thanks for your comments


User currently offlinePlanemaker From Tuvalu, joined Aug 2003, 6281 posts, RR: 34
Reply 16, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 6203 times:

Quoting Gregtx (Reply 33):
AVITAS is pretty much the authority on gathering statistics on costing and valuation . And it's likely they know what they are calculating (seats, etc).

AVITAS merely reports only on what is on the US DOT's Form 41 so you have to know how to interpert the numbers in the correct context. Since no US carrier is flying the E170 at 78 seats there is no basis for any operational comparison.

Quoting Gregtx (Reply 33):
Add to that EMB will admit they are cheaper to operate (up to 4% on some routes)---

No, EMB did not say that on a CASM basis... the 4% is only on a trip basis.



Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
User currently offlineCRJ900 From Norway, joined Jun 2004, 2209 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 6037 times:
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I'm gonna book a trip on LH's new CRJ900 this fall when they start flying to Oslo from Munich, their CRJ700 cabins look nice from photos in this and other databases, I'm sure their 84-seat -900s will be nice too. I wonder if the four front rows will have 32-34 inch pitch seat spacing for biz-pax, does anyone know?

The LH CRJs look more nice and fresh in photos than CRJs flying for USA-based airlines - they just look gloomy and spartan with dark seats.



Come, fly the prevailing winds with me
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