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BA And The DC-10  
User currently offlineScalebuilder From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 11877 times:

I know that BA ended up with several BCAL DC-10s (don't know how many) after the merger with BCAL which I believe took place in 1988. BA continued to fly these birds in their own colors into the late 90's. I saw one at IAH back in 1997.

Consolidation and simplification is typically the order following any merger. Was BA simply happy with the performance of the DC-10? I actually would have expected BA to get rid of these after the acquisition in order to simply its fleet.

Does anyone know the real reason for why BA kept the DC-10 for that long?

Thanks!

Scalebuilder

26 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLHRjc From Netherlands, joined Apr 2006, 1964 posts, RR: 20
Reply 1, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 11821 times:

According to my book "British Airways, it's history, aircraft and liveries" by Keith Gaskell,

"This small fleet of DC-10's came to British Airways unexpectedly and surprised many by surviving so long, seemingly inseparable from Gatwick where they were such familiar sights for more than 20 years. Basically their continued operation was because the aircraft's attributes - reliability, ease of maintenance and suitability for many of the long haul routes flown from Gatwick - made them difficult to replace economically and operationally."

10 DC-10-30's came from BCAL, G-BEBL becoming the first to wear BA colours in May 1988.


Hope that helps  Wink

JC



"Our 319's are very reliable. They get fixed very quickly."
User currently offlineScalebuilder From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 11782 times:

Quoting LHRjc (Reply 1):

Thanks!

I guess this proves that the DC-10 served the traveling public very well.

Do you know if BA ever considered the MD-11?

Sincerely,

Scalebuilder


User currently offlineLHRjc From Netherlands, joined Apr 2006, 1964 posts, RR: 20
Reply 3, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 11714 times:

Quoting Scalebuilder (Reply 2):
Thanks!

You're welcome,

Quoting Scalebuilder (Reply 2):
I guess this proves that the DC-10 served the traveling public very well.

Do you know if BA ever considered the MD-11?

Quote from the same source as before;

"The DC-10 came to be greatly admired (by BA)..... for it's capabilities and rugged reliability, so much so that the acquisition of 2 additional examples were evaluated in 1998 and again in 1990 when 2 ex-Eastern Airlines aircraft were seriously considered. In the end none were acquired and an order for 9 new MD-11s held by BCAL at the time of the merger for delivery between 1990-93 was transferred to American Airlines".

No other mention of MD-11's after a quick scan through, sorry  Wink



"Our 319's are very reliable. They get fixed very quickly."
User currently offlineBCAL From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2004, 3384 posts, RR: 17
Reply 4, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 11670 times:

Another reason why the DC10 survived longer than expected in BA's fleet was because they were, at that time, the only aircraft that had the range and capabilities other than the 747s. Under the agreements between the UK and South American Civil Aviation Authorities (or their equivalent), BA was not allowed to operate the 747 on these routes so until the arrival of the 777, the DC10-30 was the only suited aircraft (the routes being too long for the Tristar to operate non-stop). BCal's 3 DC10-10s (all ex Laker aircraft) went over to Novair, successor to CalAir.


MOL on SRB's latest attack at BA: "It's like a little Chihuahua barking at a dying Labrador. Nobody cares."
User currently offlineUAL747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 11578 times:

I flew on "Sherwood Forest" a DC-10-30ER of BA going from DFW-LGW, but got to fly on the inagural 777 flight from LGW-DFW on the way home, G-VIIK. Was quite cool to see the difference beetween the old and new as this was my first 777 flight.

UAL


User currently offline74472 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2006, 117 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 11572 times:

Quoting Scalebuilder (Thread starter):
Does anyone know the real reason for why BA kept the DC-10 for that long?

I remember years ago a very senior DC-10 Captain told me that
he considered McDonnell-Douglas to be the Rolls-Royce of aircraft builders.

Hence :-

Quoting LHRjc (Reply 3):
"The DC-10 came to be greatly admired (by BA)..... for it's capabilities and rugged reliability

They don't build'em like they used to !!

I have to say that I always loved the look of the DC-10. Surely they would of been much more of a success without the tragic twists of fate that (through no error in the design) befell them?


User currently offlineScalebuilder From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 11471 times:

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 5):
flew on "Sherwood Forest" a DC-10-30ER of BA going from DFW-LGW, but got to fly on the inagural 777 flight from LGW-DFW on the way home, G-VIIK. Was quite cool to see the difference beetween the old and new as this was my first 777 flight.

Would you mind at all sharing with us when this happened?

Thanks!

Scalebuilder


User currently offlineCalAir From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 298 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 11329 times:

I seem to remember reading somewhere that BA leased a DC-10 (or more than one, i cant remember) in the 1970's or early 80's for a short while, maybe not in their livery though, and MD tried in vain to tempt BA with the DC-10 with RR engines when they were evaluating the Tristar 500.


British Caledonian...we never forget, you have a choice
User currently offlineLHRjc From Netherlands, joined Apr 2006, 1964 posts, RR: 20
Reply 9, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 11304 times:

Quoting CalAir (Reply 8):
I seem to remember reading somewhere that BA leased a DC-10 (or more than one, i cant remember) in the 1970's or early 80's for a short while, maybe not in their livery though

According to my trusty book, which Ive been reading avidly since the start of this thread; !!!!

"British Airways' first use of DC-10's came about through a leasing arrangement with Air New Zealand which was entered into during the mid-1970s to solve a serious capacity problem on the LHR - LAX service. To remain competitive with Pan-Am and TWA on this important route the airline badly needed to replace its 707s with widebodies but 747s were mcuh too big and TriStars just did not have the range. ANZ offered spare DC-10-30 time and agreement was reached for use of this through an interchange of aircraft at LAX beginning in May 1975."

"The highly successful agreement ended in April 1979"


JC



"Our 319's are very reliable. They get fixed very quickly."
User currently offlineFlyCaledonian From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 2048 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 11195 times:

BA only took 8 DC-10-30s into service from the BCal fleet, though BCal did operate more than that prior to BA's takeover. The 8 aircraft were: -

G-BEBL 46949/179 Forest of Dean
Built '74; Delivered new from Douglas in '77

G-BEBM 46921/214 Sherwood Forest
Built '75; Delivered new from Douglas in '77 (Not taken up by China Airlines)

G-BHDH 47816/316 Benmore Forest
New from Douglas in '80

G-BHDI 47831/327 Forest of Ae
New from Douglas in '80

G-BHDJ 47840/337 Glen Cap Forest
New from Douglas in '80

G-DCIO 48277/354 Epping Forest
New from Douglas in '81

G-MULL 47888/291 New Forest
New to Ariana Afghan Airlines in '79; Delivered to BCal in '85

G-NUIK 46932/158 Cairn Edward Forest
New to Air Zaire in '74; Delivered to BCal in '85


The two DC-10-30 aircraft that left the fleet before the BA takeover were: -

G-BFGI 46590/266
New from Douglas in '78; to Continental Airlines in '87

G-BGAT 46591/287
New from Douglas in '79; to Continental Airlines in '87


The proposed Rolls-Royce powered DC-10 would have been known as the -50, but BA decided to stick with the TriStar and ordered the 500. Ironically they didn't stay in the fleet more than a couple of years and ended up with the RAF.

Interestingly BA then went on to purchase the TriStar 200 which saw some use on African and Middle Eastern routes, as well as to South East Asia via the Middle East. In the late '80s some TriStar 200s served with BA at LGW alongside the ex BCal DC-10s. That may be why BA looked at acquiring additional examples at that point, to operate only one Tri-jet from LGW on mainline services (The Caledonian charter operation being a separate operation).

BA was one of the initial airlines involved with Boeing in developing the 777 - was it that which possibly killed of BA's interest in the MD-11 orders of BCal? It's interesting that the DC-10s didn't leave the BA fleet as soon as the 777s started arriving though. Guess it found a good niche with BA at LGW.

As a side note, the collapse of UK carrier Air Europe killed off the Rolls Royce Trent powered MD-11 (Air Europe was launch customer for this variant) so neither the DC-10 or MD-11 flew with RR powerplants.



Let's Go British Caledonian!
User currently offlineCalAir From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 298 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 11151 times:

Excellent FlyCaledonian, cheers for that info, I did search but I couldn't find any info on that AirNZ agreement.


British Caledonian...we never forget, you have a choice
User currently offlineScalebuilder From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 11113 times:

Quoting CalAir (Reply 11):

Excellent FlyCaledonian, cheers for that info, I did search but I couldn't find any info on that AirNZ agreement.

This is all very interesting. Does it mean that BA was simply pleased with the performance of the DC-10? Sounds like it.. The airline even attempted to aquire more, but backed out later.

Sounds like , form previuos posts, that the DC-10 made quite an impression on BA management.


User currently offlineWrighbrothers From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2005, 1875 posts, RR: 9
Reply 13, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 11106 times:

BA DC-10's flew (at one time or another)

LGW-LAX-SAN
LGW-PHX-SAN
LGW-DFW
LGW-ATL
LGW-IAH
LGW-AUH-Colombo
LGW-ACC
LGW-GYD
LGW-DAR
LGW-TLV
LGW-BDA-TPA
LGW-MBJ
LGW-TAB
LGW-CUN
LGW-Puerto Plata
LGW-LOS
LGW-SJU
LGW-NAS-GCM

Quoting LHRjc (Reply 9):
According to my trusty book, which Ive been reading avidly since the start of this thread; !!!!

I too have that book !

On a side note, BA actually wanted to operate the DC-10's through into the 21st century !

Wrighbrothers



Always stand up for what is right, even if it means standing alone..
User currently offlineLHRjc From Netherlands, joined Apr 2006, 1964 posts, RR: 20
Reply 14, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 11106 times:

Thanks FlyCaledonian

Quoting FlyCaledonian (Reply 10):
G-DCIO 48277/354 Epping Forest

Great reg for a DC 10  Wink

Quoting CalAir (Reply 11):
I did search but I couldn't find any info on that AirNZ agreement

"Every day ANZ would operate a DC-10 from Auckland to LAX, whereupon the aircraft would be transferred to BA for it's service to LHR. Meanwhile another DC-10 would be operating the reverse of this route from LHR to LAX with BA, and then onto Auckland with ANZ. The aircraft remained in full Maori style livery, but between LAX and LHR were operated entirely by BA flight and cabin crews.

DC-10s proved to be ideally suited to the lengthy LAX route with their comfortable 24F/219Y seat configuration and their ability to uplift substantial cargo loads. Another benefit to both airlines... was the opportunity to carry pax between London and Auckland on the same aircraft. By 1978, with one year of the interchange still to run, BA introduced 747s to LAX 5 days a week and redeployed the DC-10s onto 5 Miami and 3 Montreal services, plus 2 LAX in order to feed the aircraft back into ANZs network.

These revised arrangements increased the amount of DC-10 flying so that the equivalent of 2 aircraft were being used, a quarter of ANZ's fleet.

The interchange agreement ended in April 1979. Sadly, one of the DC-10s which had been seen regularly on these services came to grief not long afterwards when ZK-NZP crashed into Mount Erebus in Antarctica during a sight seeing flight on 28 November 1979"

Hope that helps you  Wink

JC



"Our 319's are very reliable. They get fixed very quickly."
User currently offlineMagyarorszag From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 11081 times:

Quoting CalAir (Reply 11):
I did search but I couldn't find any info on that AirNZ agreement

Below, you'll find a link to my answer to a previous thread where I mentionned the NZ-BA agreement.

http://www2.airliners.net/discussion...ion/read.main/2700895/6/#ID2700895

B.Cal operated 10 DC-10-30s as already mentionned, but also 2 DC-10-10s! B.Cal took over the two aircraft from Laker, when that airline went bust. G-BJZD (ex. G-GFA) & G-BJZE (ex. G-GSKY) were kept under B.Cal name for a year before being transferred to B.Cal Charter. They later moved first to Cal-Air and then to Novair. While with B.Cal, they were used only for charters.


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Photo © Jordi Grife - Iberian Spotters



[Edited 2006-07-10 00:14:45]

User currently offlineIsitsafenow From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4984 posts, RR: 24
Reply 16, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 10863 times:

A few years ago, the BA DC-10 has been seen at DTW, though only on a limited basis.
safe



If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
User currently offlineVC-10 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 1999, 3695 posts, RR: 35
Reply 17, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 10180 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting FlyCaledonian (Reply 10):
G-MULL 47888/291 New Forest
New to Ariana Afghan Airlines in '79; Delivered to BCal in '85

Delivered in '83 - I know - I was part of the team that collected it from Kabul


User currently offlineTymnBalewne From Bermuda, joined Mar 2005, 936 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 9916 times:

BA's DC-10 was seen at ADW during the Clinton administration. BA carried the press corps on a charter that followed President Clinton to Russia and N. Ireland in 1998.

C.



Dewmanair...begins with Dew
User currently offlineUAL747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 9900 times:

Quoting Scalebuilder (Reply 7):
Would you mind at all sharing with us when this happened?

This was in the spring of 1998. Middle of March. Not sure on the dates however.

UAL


User currently offlineBA747400 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 428 posts, RR: 3
Reply 20, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 9706 times:

Quoting LHRjc (Reply 3):
"The DC-10 came to be greatly admired (by BA)..... for it's capabilities and rugged reliability, so much so that the acquisition of 2 additional examples were evaluated in 1998 and again in 1990 when 2 ex-Eastern Airlines aircraft were seriously considered. In the end none were acquired and an order for 9 new MD-11s held by BCAL at the time of the merger for delivery between 1990-93 was transferred to American Airlines".

Now thats interesting! So what happened to the AA order for the MD-11's? Boy wouldnt THAT be nice!

LHRjc, thank you so much for your fantastic contribution to this thread, its been really educational!  Smile

Mike


User currently offlineTrekster From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 8598 times:

I was shocked when i saw a DC10 in BA colours.
I did not know about them.
So glad we had those impressive birds. They look great in the landor scheme


User currently offlineBennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 7209 posts, RR: 3
Reply 22, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 7613 times:

So where are they now?.

User currently offlineMagyarorszag From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 7249 times:

Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 22):
So where are they now?

First, all were concerted to freighter.

46921/G-BEBM --> N608GC (Gemini) --> 5X-BON (DAS)
46932/G-NIUK --> N609GC (Gemini) --> N609GC (Cielos)
46949/G-BEBL --> PP-VQY (Varig Log)
47816/G-BHDH --> N47816 (Emery) --> N279AX (Omni) --> N279AX (Centurion)
47831/G-GHDI --> LX-TLD (Cargo Lion) --> N402JR/5X-JCR (DAS)
47840/G-BHDJ --> N612GC (Gemini) --> N612GC (Centurion)
47888/G-MULL --> N47888 (Centurion)
48277/G-DCIO --> N189AX (Omni) --> N189AX (Centurion - damaged beyong repair at BOG - 28.04.2004.


User currently offlineBHXDTW From Eritrea, joined Feb 2005, 1088 posts, RR: 5
Reply 24, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 6230 times:

Quoting VC-10 (Reply 17):
Delivered in '83 - I know - I was part of the team that collected it from Kabul

That sounds awesome !!!!
any chance you could relive the story and tell me how you did it and what it was like ??
Post it or Message me if poss !!!!
Im really interested in those sort of Aviation storys !!

Cheers,

Joe


25 Bennett123 : Was G-DC10 scrapped?. David
26 Post contains images Bwaflyer :
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