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Would The 717 Been Good For Southwest?  
User currently offlineSocal From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 473 posts, RR: 0
Posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 9180 times:

Since Southwest Airlines is a loyal 737 operator, would the 717 been good for Southwest to operate?


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41 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9709 posts, RR: 52
Reply 1, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 9134 times:

While the 717 is a very efficient plane and has worked well for Airtran, I don't think it is possible that WN which has operated only 737s for the vast majority of its history to add another fleet type that has been discontinued by the manufacturer. Boeing isn't even making 717s. Where could WN get them? Also where would they fly them and what is the point? WN is a 737 airline with huge numbers of 737-700s and many more on order. Another fleet type doesn't make sense. The only changes to the WN fleet are via the codeshare with ATA.


If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineSLCUT2777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 4127 posts, RR: 9
Reply 2, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 9115 times:

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 1):
what is the point? WN is a 737 airline with huge numbers of 737-700s and many more on order. Another fleet type doesn't make sense.

Perhaps a better question would be about WN as an entire Airbus fleet of A320s or even a few A321s since the fleet commonality would be good and what WN is after, and what they typically get in their fleet 0f 737-300s and 737-700s.



DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 3, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 9099 times:

In theory, the 717 could have worked very well for Southwest......for example on its high frequency intra-California routes.

BUT, Southwest's business model is based around operating just one type, and thats the 737, so Southwest probably never even gave the 717 any serious consideration. Operating only one aircraft type results in many savings for the airline and lots of flexibility; Southwest can use a 73G on several short turns and then, later in the day, fly the airplane on a cross country segment, something that would not be possible with the 717.

I heard that Southwest finds the 735s problematic (now that the 732s are retired)......the small 735 seat offers less seats than the 733 and 73G which dominate the Southwest fleet. Its all about standardization.


User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9709 posts, RR: 52
Reply 4, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 9026 times:

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 3):
In theory, the 717 could have worked very well for Southwest......for example on its high frequency intra-California routes

I don't think the 717 would work in California since those are high capacity high frequency routes. The 717 has a lower capacity, so it doesn't make sense to switch from the 733s and 73Gs that fly between the Bay Area and the LA Area.

However 717s might have worked better in Texas as WN flies to some smaller markets. They operated the last 732s in Texas and now operate the lower capacity 735s there.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 5, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 9015 times:

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 4):
the 717 would work in California since those are high capacity high frequency routes. The 717 has a lower capacity, so it doesn't make sense to switch from the 733s and 73Gs that fly between the Bay Area and the LA

We are gonna agree to disagree on this one!!!

If Southwest would have taken the 717s, they would have been great for the intra-California routes and the smaller capacity of the 717 may or may not have resulted in higher frequencies on the subject routes. Remember, Southwest is all about frequency, lots and lots of flights in the market....which is why their load factor is not great when compared to other US airlines. The, its possible that the lower seat count in the 717 would have worked very well for them.

At the end of the story, it really doesnt matter, does it?


User currently offlineSrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 8821 times:

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 4):
I don't think the 717 would work in California since those are high capacity high frequency routes. The 717 has a lower capacity, so it doesn't make sense to switch from the 733s and 73Gs that fly between the Bay Area and the LA Area.

The 717 was designed from the outset for multiple flights a day, pretty much spending 12+ hours a day in flight, spending no more than an hour on the gorund between flights. The typical block time for a 717 flight is between 90 minutes and 2 hours, and a typical 717 will do between 6-8 legs a day, sometimes more. In some ways, the 717 would be the ideal a/c in which to operate on the BOS-LGA-DCA shuttle routes.


User currently offlineTango-Bravo From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 3806 posts, RR: 29
Reply 7, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 8806 times:

Though certainly not the only reason for Southwest's sustained profitablity, their "one-type" fleet policy is a major component in their successful business plan.

Other good reasons IMHO for Southwest to "pass" on the 717:

Not likely that operating cost advantages (if any) of the 717 over the 737 types operated by WN would justify the costs of an additional type in their fleet.

Difference in seating capacity of the 717 when compared to the 733/735/73G types in WN's fleet is relatively insignificant.

With WN's growth plans calling for more non-stop flights over longer distances, the more limited range/payload capabilities of the 717 (compared to WN's 737 types) would limit its usefulness to WN.


User currently offlineVatveng From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 1009 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 8744 times:

Hypothetical:

IF Southwest had been a DC9 operator from the beginning, instead of a 737 operator, would the 717 still be in production today? And would Long Beach be churning out the 717-300?



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User currently offlineSocal From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 473 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 8730 times:

Good Question VATVENG.......


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User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9709 posts, RR: 52
Reply 10, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 8709 times:

Quoting Vatveng (Reply 8):
IF Southwest had been a DC9 operator from the beginning, instead of a 737 operator, would the 717 still be in production today? And would Long Beach be churning out the 717-300?

I think if WN was a DC-9 operator and wanted to stay with them, then yes we would still see the 717 in production. Southwest is also one of the few airlines that have enough sway to influence Boeing's decisions as far as how planes are decided and what features they offer. I'm sure WN will have a big influence on the next generation of narrowbodies that Boeing offers just like how United had a very very large influence on the 777 development.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineBond007 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 5434 posts, RR: 8
Reply 11, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 8701 times:

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 5):
At the end of the story, it really doesnt matter, does it?

Well, I think it does. Sure WN likes lots of flights, but there's a compromise to be made between fewer flights with larger aircraft, and more flights with smaller aircraft. I'm assuming that total costs (not just CASM) are cheaper for larger aircraft/less frequency, and the B737 fits that equation for WN.

After all, if it was simply less seats, more frequency, WN would be flying King Airs every 2 minutes from A to B.


Jimbo



I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
User currently offlinePolymerPlane From United States of America, joined May 2006, 991 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 8682 times:

717 would be a hard push on trans con flight. BWI-LAX is 2020NM, while the range of the HGW 717 is only 2060NM.

Cheers,
PP



One day there will be 100% polymer plane
User currently offlineSocal From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 473 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 8623 times:

Who has the longest flight using a 717?


I Love HNL.............
User currently offlineSocalfive From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 8623 times:

Quoting Socal (Thread starter):
Since Southwest Airlines is a loyal 737 operator, would the 717 been good for Southwest to operate?

You answered your own question


User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 15, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 8617 times:

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 11):
After all, if it was simply less seats, more frequency, WN would be flying King Airs every 2 minutes from A to B.

Thanks for the logic.

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 11):
Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 5):
At the end of the story, it really doesnt matter, does it?



Quoting Bond007 (Reply 11):
Well, I think it does

My point was that......being that WN is a dedicated 737 operator, and being that the 717 is out of production, this entire discussion is hypothetcial....Would the 717 been good for WN? It really does not matter, does it?


User currently offlineQuickmover From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 2494 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 8605 times:

Quoting Socal (Reply 13):
Who has the longest flight using a 717?

Probably a midwest air route with fewer passengers on board. MKE-LAX?


User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9709 posts, RR: 52
Reply 17, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 8556 times:

Quoting PolymerPlane (Reply 12):
717 would be a hard push on trans con flight. BWI-LAX is 2020NM, while the range of the HGW 717 is only 2060NM.

I don't think there would be any intention to operate 717s on longer flights. They have limited range. But the lower range means that the planes are lighter and therefore more efficient on short flights. An airline that wants to operate transcon flights would need to have a dual fleet like Airtran does with both 717s and 737s.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineBond007 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 5434 posts, RR: 8
Reply 18, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 8547 times:

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 15):
My point was that......being that WN is a dedicated 737 operator, and being that the 717 is out of production, this entire discussion is hypothetcial....Would the 717 been good for WN? It really does not matter, does it?

No. I agree  Smile


Jimbo



I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
User currently offlineBWI757 From Israel, joined Dec 2004, 429 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 8537 times:

WN DID consider the 717. However there was a huge internal debate becasue no one could agree if the livery would look good on the planes or not.

BWI757



I live in the US but my heart is in Jerusalem!
User currently offlineSocal From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 473 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 8427 times:

The Livery!!!!!......LOL


I Love HNL.............
User currently offlineMush From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 97 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 8422 times:

Quoting Vatveng (Reply 8):
IF Southwest had been a DC9 operator from the beginning, instead of a 737 operator, would the 717 still be in production today? And would Long Beach be churning out the 717-300?



Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 10):
I think if WN was a DC-9 operator and wanted to stay with them, then yes we would still see the 717 in production.

I think that if Southwest was a loyal DC-9 operator you would see the MD-95 still being produced in Long Beach. But, as we all know McD is no more and their great narrowbody product line has produced the last copy...

Mush



Sprung from cages out on highway 9
User currently offlineThering From Brazil, joined Jun 2006, 530 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 8338 times:

The 737-600 would have been much better for WN. Althoug, I think it's even better to operate only 737-700 than a mix of 737-600 and -700.
They should think of getting the 737-800 and the 737-900ER, this would be good for them.



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User currently offlineSocal From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 473 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 8327 times:

Hmm..... I think the 737-900ER would be best...


I Love HNL.............
User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 997 posts, RR: 51
Reply 24, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 8315 times:

Quoting Thering (Reply 22):
They should think of getting the 737-800 and the 737-900ER, this would be good for them.

It appears that WN was very close to doing so in 2004. When U.S. was teetering on the brink of liquidation, there was speculation that WN would want to quickly add capacity to pick-up remains of their networks. Hence, slightly larger units of capacity would be desireable.

This was revisited when TZ was looking to off-load some of its 738, but it's now been all but ruled out.


25 Flinhion757 : Why, they don't need any more commuter air craft. I thought maybe 738 or A319. Possibly 752 (1or2)
26 Iluv727s : If the 717 had been around back then and selected by WN for their operation, we could pontificate the this question in reverse... would the 737 have b
27 PHLBOS : Didn't FL briefly use 717s on their ATL-DEN routes? If so (not sure whether they still do), that would probably be the longest passenger route. Are H
28 DAYflyer : Nah. Too small (pax count) and adds another type to the fleet. Lots of costs there.
29 EMBQA : Why are so many A.neters always trying to change the wheel...? Southwest runs a very-very efficient airline. One of the basics of that plan is a simp
30 United319 : I dont think that WN would have been able to do much with the 717 as they have been able to do with the 737-700, they use that plane on both short and
31 Post contains links Flymli : Read Michael Boyd's weekly column today at www.aviationplanning.com. He discusses the changes that might influence SW in the future.
32 YX717fan : Sorry, Midwest uses MD-80s for the MKE-LAX flights.
33 Cloudy : Southwest thinks long term. Keep in mind that Boeing may launch an all-new narrowbody within 5 years or so - search for Y1 for what little details we
34 Rumorboy : Actually Airtran still uses the 717 to DEN but the longest route the 717 serves is MCO-MSP, thats actually longer than ATL-DEN route.
35 Srbmod : Prior to getting the 73Gs, yes. The ATL-DEN flights are now all 73G. YX does, MCI-LAX. 1363 miles. Their MCI-SAN flight comes in second at 1333 miles
36 RoseFlyer : I'm not sure what you are referring to as "back then". If you are referring to when WN was just starting operations, the DC-9-30 was in production th
37 Sllevin : Southwest wasn't interested in the 717 because the cost per seat mile is 20% higher than the 737. The reason that Airtran has them and 'does well' is
38 ScottB : Agreed. If memory serves, Joe Leonard said that AirTran was delighted with the 737-700 because they were getting 20 extra seats to sell per flight wi
39 Vatveng : The planned-but-never-built 717-300 would have solved that problem.
40 Thering : The 717-200 has the same problem of the 737-600, there are batter choices. A 737-700 carries more pax than a -600 or a 717 and has almost the same fly
41 Steeler83 : Yeah, I definitely hear ya on that one!!! I think that has to be my favorite T-tail aircraft... Yeah, tell me about it. That is one really silly reas
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