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Heathrow Night Curfew  
User currently offlineAF022 From France, joined Dec 2003, 2139 posts, RR: 1
Posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 5231 times:

I found by googling that another 6-year decision had been made about LHR night curfews, including some cryptic limitations involving noice and QC codes. Can someone break this down for the lay people?

There was something about 747s with RR engines. Will any existing flights be banned from arriving before 0600? Any hope of other airlines getting new slots before 0600?

And are the morning limitations before 0730 or 0800 due to slots or gate space?

Thanks.

17 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineGeo772 From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2004, 519 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 5208 times:

Have you got a link.


Flown on A300B4/600,A319/20/21,A332/3,A343,B727,B732/3/4/5/6/7/8,B741/2/4,B752/3,B762/3,B772/3,DC10,L1011-200,VC10,MD80,
User currently offlineN328KF From United States of America, joined May 2004, 6483 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 5194 times:

Now, my understanding was that with some of the new airliners (GEnx/T1000-based airframes), that the noise levels would be low enough that they could operate around some of the curfews. Is that incorrect?


When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' T.Roosevelt
User currently offlineHUYguy From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2006, 274 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 5190 times:

I don't really understand what you're trying to ask, but I know from watching 'Aiport' that aircraft aren't allowed to take off after 11pm or something like that, and if they do they need special permission. I wouldn't really count on getting slots before 0600, local residents would put up a fight over it I'm sure.

User currently offlineFlymya380 From United Kingdom, joined May 2006, 53 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 5106 times:

I have flown in & out of LHR before 0700.
My last flight was EWR-LHR with UA & it landed at 05.55.

We had a beautiful sight flying down the thames as the sun was just coming up.



Take care & be happy
User currently offlineCardiffairtaxi From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2006, 303 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 5047 times:

Quoting Flymya380 (Reply 4):
I have flown in & out of LHR before 0700.
My last flight was EWR-LHR with UA & it landed at 05.55.

As i have said in another thread,aircraft are landing in LHR before 5am.
My customer touched down on BA26 at 04.47am on Saturday.


User currently offlineBigpappa From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2004, 84 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 4983 times:

Quoting Cardiffairtaxi (Reply 5):
As i have said in another thread,aircraft are landing in LHR before 5am.
My customer touched down on BA26 at 04.47am on Saturday.



Quoting Cardiffairtaxi (Reply 5):

Thats true.. i live underneath the flight path and i woke up this morning at 4am to go to work (at lhr) and saw many aircraft landing before 5am..



one good flight deserves another!!!!
User currently offlineEMAlad From United Kingdom, joined May 2006, 443 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 4974 times:

I have flown into LHR on MH and were one of the first flights landing, have landed between 4:30 and 5:00 both times from Australia.

Seems the Australian authorities are more strict than us. Our flight even delayed itself in KL so that we wouldnt arrive in Adelaide before 6:00

I did take off from Heathrow at 10:45pm the last time I went to Oz and the pilot was worried that we wouldnt be able to take off if we were any longer at the gate.


User currently offlineDeltAirlines From United States of America, joined May 1999, 8869 posts, RR: 12
Reply 8, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 4892 times:

I've landed as early as 4:45 a.m. coming off a BOS-LHR flight (we had some nasty tail winds that night that allowed us to get in at such an early hour...flying time was around 5h10 minutes or so, which was crazy).

Jeff


User currently offlinePlanesarecool From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2001, 4119 posts, RR: 11
Reply 9, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 4873 times:

Some flights have slots to land before 6am, however they are limited and are usually some of the most expensive.

Any flight which doesn't have a slot before 6am cannot land before then, even if they arrive in the area before so. To get around this, there is a gap between 5:55am (the latest of the pre-6am slots) and 6:20am, leaving flights 20 minutes to 'be early' and so they are not holding for too long.

In terms of night departures, flights generally have to be off stand by 11pm, however i have seen flights departing at 1-2am before, so I'm not too sure.


User currently offlineAF022 From France, joined Dec 2003, 2139 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 4865 times:

Here is the link:

http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/group...ents/page/dft_aviation_611811.hcsp

There is a system that shows slot availability, but it isn't reliable for LHR:

https://www.online-coordination.com/Default.aspx?tabid=DefaultPage

How big of a problem is stand availability, and will the new terminal help with airlines looking for more arrivals?


User currently offlineVV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7260 posts, RR: 17
Reply 11, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 4766 times:

The arrival curfew is from 0000 hrs until 0600 hrs but the last scheduled arrival is AZ0210 from Rome (Fiumicino) scheduled at 2305 hrs local except on Saturdays when BD7008 from Dalaman is due at 2355 hrs.

The departure curfew is from 2300 to 0600 hrs with the last departure being a DHL 752F (BCS4666) (operating for BA World Cargo?) bound for Cologne / Bonn and scheduled at 2250 hrs.

During the night curfew a numerically defined number of annual arrivals are allowed. I though the number was 4,000 but current services (assuming a 52 week - and not a 365 day - year) gross up to 5,406. The services scheduled to arrive in the curfew are (daily unless otherwise indicated):

0055 hrs BD7010 Constanta (Sun)
0505 hrs BA0026 Hong Kong
0515 hrs BA0012 Singapore
0515 hrs BA0212 Boston
0525 hrs BA0064 Nairobi
0525 hrs BD0776 Riyadh (Tue & Thu)
0525 hrs BD0778 Jeddah (Mon, Wed & Fri)
0525 hrs VS0201 Sydney / Hong Kong
0530 hrs QF0009 Melbourne / Singapore
0535 hrs BA0032 Hong Kong
0545 hrs CX0251 Hong Kong
0550 hrs MH0002 Kuala Lumpur
0550 hrs SQ0322 Singapore
0550 hrs VS0502 Kuala Lumpur
0555 hrs BA0016 Sydney / Singapore
0555 hrs BA0074 Lagos
0555 hrs UA0958 Denver / Chicago (O'Hare)

Quoting Planesarecool (Reply 9):
Any flight which doesn't have a slot before 6am cannot land before then, even if they arrive in the area before so. To get around this, there is a gap between 5:55am (the latest of the pre-6am slots) and 6:20am

when BA0056 is scheduled to arrive from Johannesberg.

Quoting AF022 (Reply 10):
How big of a problem is stand availability, and will the new terminal help with airlines looking for more arrivals?

I do not think it is big particularly since some of the remote T5 stands are already in use and the BA engineering ramps (where an SA and QF 744 are parked all day awaiting their homeward evening flights) are rarely anywhere near full on weekdays.

The constraints are slot availability and legal restrictions following the granting of T5 planning approval. I understand that around 470,000 slots a year are in use. Theoretically this number could be increased by 15 per cent or more (to around 538,000) by adopting mixed mode operation. However the terms of the T5 Planning Perrmission constrains the absolute number to around 2 per cent above the current level at 480,000. However this could be a Godsend for Airbus as mixed mode would allow the 380 to land with double the spacing of the 744 without any practical slot loss.


User currently offlineTristarSteve From Sweden, joined Nov 2005, 3935 posts, RR: 34
Reply 12, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 4580 times:

The present limit is 16/night. Your list shows nearly 15/night are scheduled. This leaves 1/night for contingency.
When I worked for GF as a 3 flights /day airline we were allocated 3 contingency slots every YEAR. It was up to GF to use these when required.

Now working for BA in Europe, we all know the latest dep time we can have in the evening to arrive before the NJB. If we have a delay that looks likely to go past this time, then someone rings Operations and asks if a Night slot can be used for this delayed service. If the aircraft is a B767 with 250pax then the answer is usually yes, but an A319 with 50 pax on board then the answer is NO, unless they need the aircraft back. Someone is counting.


User currently offlineEK413 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 4700 posts, RR: 4
Reply 13, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 4550 times:

Curfew........Please.......I live next door to Sydney gateway & you dont hear me complaining!!!
Residents should begin to face reality more often & realise the world doesnt revolve around them!!!

EK413



Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
User currently offlineSAA346 From South Africa, joined Mar 2006, 73 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 4449 times:

Quoting EK413 (Reply 13):

Absolutely. Having watched the "drama" on night curfews in LHR and BRU over the years I would really love someone to work out the following : Suburbs most noise affected are generally within a couple of miles of any large airport. Surely a high % of the people work directly or indirectly for the same source of the noise! So why does everyone moan - bet it's the people about 250nm away who wouldn't hear the a/c anyway! Like you, my life wouldn't be the same without the sound of the props of the pre-dawn freighters out of JNB!
 eyebrow 


User currently offlineABC9 From Ireland, joined May 2006, 203 posts, RR: 5
Reply 15, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 4398 times:

Quoting VV701 (Reply 11):
0530 hrs QF0009 Melbourne / Singapore

Thanks for the detailed posting VV701

I was on the above flight, admittedly some years ago and we'd obviously made good time on the SIN-LHR leg. The pilot apologised that we'd have to go into a holding pattern as we could'nt land at LHR before 6am due to local rules. We duly held for 10-15 minutes or so and he put her on the runway at about 5 seconds past 6am, and in so doing he and the ATCs really impressed me with their ability to judge the lapsed time from holding pattern to airport with such precision.


User currently offlineSpottingpete93 From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2006, 72 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 4267 times:

Right, where to begin!! And I warn you this isnt an easy topic as I work with this on a day to day basis!

Basically, in the document you refer to, the UK department for transport has outlined the total number of movements allowed at each of the three major London airports within the night period 2330 - 0600 Local times, throughout each of the IATA scheduling seasons for the next 6 years.

Every aircraft which flies into and out of LHR, LGW or STN between 2330 - 0600 Local times needs to have had its noise footprints on approach, arrival and departure evaluated by the UK Civil Aviation Authority and each aircraft / engine type / MTOW / MLW configuration is given what is known as a QC Rating for that aircraft for both arrival and departure. The current QC bands are "Exempt", 0.5, 1.0, 2.0, 4.0, 8.0, 16.0.

For example an A319 is rated as QC0.5 on arrival and either 0.5 or 1.0 on departure depending upon the aircrafts CERTIFIED MTOW (not actual Take off weight). I should also mention that some aircraft are actually exempt from any of the QC bands and can operate into LHR, LGW or STN without a Night Jet movement.

As well as neeeding a QC rating to fly in and out of LHR, LGW and STN the flight must also have a "Night Jet Movement". These NJMs are what the document refers to as movements. The NJM will be allocated along with a confirmed slot in the night period as approved by Airport Coordination Ltd (ACL) - the slot coordinator for LHR, LGW, STN.

So lets take LGW Summer 2007 as an example: 11200 movements and 6700 QC.
That means on average each movement will need to be only just over 0.5QC points which will seriously limit what some operators can and cant operate next summer in the night period.

So at the moment ACL (if you havent guessed yet thats who I work for!) are trying to juggle the Airlines demand for night slots which is constantly changing with the actual night movements operated and the remaining available quota for the season, to ensure that the airlines use up as much of the available quota as possible for both NJMS and QC quota.

I apologise for the long response but you did ask and this isn't an easy topic - this is the basic jist of it and if you want any more info I will try to help!


User currently offlineAF022 From France, joined Dec 2003, 2139 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 4112 times:

Spottingpete93

This is very helpful. I have worked with many airlines in the developing world that are really desperate for morning arrivals, and they feel the deck is stacked against them.

AF022


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