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B787 Livery Change Enhances Airplane Performance  
User currently offlineLY777 From France, joined Nov 2005, 2663 posts, RR: 2
Posted (8 years 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 15798 times:

Direct from Boeing website:

SEATTLE, July 10, 2006 -- The Boeing [NYSE: BA] 787 program has made a subtle but important change to the airplane's livery to enhance airplane performance. By developing a method for maintaining a smooth flow of air -- called laminar flow -- over more area on the 787 nacelle inlet, Boeing is able to reduce aircraft drag and fuel consumption.

The 787 nacelle has a tightly controlled smooth surface to preserve laminar flow over a greater distance than that on a standard design. "Aircraft drag is reduced because laminar flow has much lower skin friction drag than turbulent flow," said Ron Hinderberger, propulsion leader for the 787 program.

To achieve laminar flow over the inlet it is necessary to maintain a very smooth, continuous surface without paint edges, which can occur when paint transitions from one color to another, or as paint details are added. The design parameter for the nacelles is based on thickness of the paint formulation for a single color; Boeing has chosen gray to complement the metallic appearance of the nacelle's inlet.

"If you interrupt the laminar flow by adding paint layers, which are common with airline liveries, you could increase fuel burn by 30,000 gallons per year per airplane," Hinderberger added. "An improvement like this -- especially with rising fuel prices -- can contribute positively to the bottom line for an airline."

[Edited 2006-07-10 21:00:44]


אמא, אני מתגעגע לך
51 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAAgent From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 560 posts, RR: 14
Reply 1, posted (8 years 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 15708 times:

Quoting LY777 (Thread starter):
Boeing has chosen gray to complement the metallic appearance of the nacelle's inlet.

Well, that's a bit of a head start for AA when they decide to order the aircraft.

Best Regards,
AAgent



War Eagle!
User currently offlineNYC777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5731 posts, RR: 48
Reply 2, posted (8 years 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 15708 times:

Quite interesting that Boeing is using gray around the inlet to sustain laminar flow around the inlet. I guess the airlines would rather save 30k gallons of fuel (and some paint) instead of have some livery around the engine inlets. I don't think they'll mind.


That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21472 posts, RR: 60
Reply 3, posted (8 years 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 15672 times:

Wow.

I would assume it could be any color, but that is must be applied in a special way. One can even assume that using a controlled spray you could do a gradient or something else.

It also sounds as if this isn't just a case of "you can apply it to any jet and save" as it has to do with the shape of the nacelles first, and then controlling the paint process not to disrupt flow over the tweaked nacelle.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineAirMailer From United States of America, joined May 2006, 465 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (8 years 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 15341 times:

hmmmmm.....

Makes me wonder how overweight the 787 is.
... just thinking that if they are looking at something as small as this (I mean how think is paint 1/100th of an inch), that the thing might be overweight afterall.

....On the other hand, maybe the 787 is underweight and this is just icing on the cake.

Time will tell.


User currently offlineDLSLC From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 88 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (8 years 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 15302 times:

Quoting LY777 (Thread starter):
"If you interrupt the laminar flow by adding paint layers, which are common with airline liveries, you could increase fuel burn by 30,000 gallons per year per airplane,"

Wow, I had no idea it could increase the fuel burn by 30K gallons per year, that is crazy.
My thought is that it is just icing on the cake, I think if it were overweight they would be more concerned about larger aspects of the aircraft that would put it overweight. Just my thought.
Devin B.


User currently offlineNYC777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5731 posts, RR: 48
Reply 6, posted (8 years 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 15272 times:

Quoting AirMailer (Reply 4):
Makes me wonder how overweight the 787 is.
... just thinking that if they are looking at something as small as this (I mean how think is paint 1/100th of an inch), that the thing might be overweight afterall.

Well it not the weight of the paint that 's making a difference it is making sure that the air flow over the nacelle's are laminar and not turbulent. If it is turbulent then you create drag which increases fuel consumption. The grey paint will ensure that the air flow over the nacelles is laminar.



That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently offlineMCIGuy From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 1936 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (8 years 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 15237 times:

Quoting AirMailer (Reply 4):
hmmmmm.....

Makes me wonder how overweight the 787 is.
... just thinking that if they are looking at something as small as this (I mean how think is paint 1/100th of an inch), that the thing might be overweight afterall.

....On the other hand, maybe the 787 is underweight and this is just icing on the cake.

Time will tell.

Last check showed that the 787 is indeed around 1% over the target weight. Boeing is working to reduce the weight, but is also making aerodynamic and other improvements to offset it. This is not uncommon.



Airliners.net Moderator Team
User currently offlineGregarious119 From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 531 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (8 years 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 15099 times:

Does a window weigh more or less than the fuselage it replaces?

If it's heavier, you'd think the oversize windows may be a problem.

If they are lighter, then howabout some oversize windows in Coach too???  Smile

Is the laminar flow affected on any other forward-facing surfaces such as the wing fronts or the vertical stabilizer?


User currently offlineMCIGuy From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 1936 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (8 years 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 15014 times:

Quoting Gregarious119 (Reply 8):
Does a window weigh more or less than the fuselage it replaces?

If it's heavier, you'd think the oversize windows may be a problem.

If they are lighter, then howabout some oversize windows in Coach too???

Is the laminar flow affected on any other forward-facing surfaces such as the wing fronts or the vertical stabilizer?

Yes, glass is a very heavy material, comparatively. However the 787 will have the larger windows in all classes. 'Twould look funny from the outside to have multiple windows sizes on one frame, don't you think?  

[Edited 2006-07-10 22:41:19]

[Edited 2006-07-10 22:42:02]


Airliners.net Moderator Team
User currently offlineOly720man From United Kingdom, joined May 2004, 6682 posts, RR: 11
Reply 10, posted (8 years 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 14957 times:

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 6):
The grey paint will ensure that the air flow over the nacelles is laminar.

Any paint will do. It's the fact that there are no edges between paint colours that will reduce the problem. Hopefully the nacelles themselves won't have too many panels where the edges could cause the same problem.

Quoting DLSLC (Reply 5):
Wow, I had no idea it could increase the fuel burn by 30K gallons per year, that is crazy.

In terms of the total fuel usage it's not a lot. Let's say in simple terms a plane flies 300 days a year, that's 100 gallons a day, or 300kg in weight or thereabouts. Equivalent to a couple of pax. Or if there are 2 flights a day, 1 pax per flight, or the various bottles of duty free and other goodies the pax buy at the departure airport. This saving could quite easily be lost if the nacelles get dirty. So, does the airline spend the money to keep the plane clean or have a dirtier plane, and lose the small saving?

And added to that, there are other bigger fuel losses just taxying to the runway, stacking when flying to a big airport and taxying to the terminal at the other end.



wheat and dairy can screw up your brain
User currently offlineRichardPrice From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (8 years 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 14929 times:

How soon until we see liveries being applied directly into the top composite layer instead of over the layer using paint?

Should be interesting.


User currently offlineMCIGuy From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 1936 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (8 years 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 14896 times:

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 11):
How soon until we see liveries being applied directly into the top composite layer instead of over the layer using paint?

Should be interesting.

Wow, very coo RichardPrice, I never even thought of that, embedded liveries. Would make it beach when they want to change liveries though, wouldn't it?



Airliners.net Moderator Team
User currently offlineBaron95 From United States of America, joined May 2006, 1335 posts, RR: 9
Reply 13, posted (8 years 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 14884 times:

Quoting LY777 (Thread starter):
necessary to maintain a very smooth, continuous surface without paint edges, which can occur when paint transitions from one color to another

This is the basic issue of natural laminar flow around surfaces - it is very susceptible to contamination (e.g. rain), dirt/dust, scratches, paint chips, and even in extreme cases paint thinkness variation.

I wonder if this will turn into a maintenance nightmare where minor dirt, scratches, paint touch-ups end up costing a few thousand gallons of fuel/year. This reminds me about the care needed by the B2 and F22 to maintain stealth - if you scratch one during maintenance they'll dock 2 years of your salary  Smile



Killer Fleet: E190, 737-900ER, 777-300ER
User currently offlineGrantcv From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 430 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (8 years 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 14578 times:

Hmmm, I wonder if there would be benefit from applying the same logic to the entire fuselage. By controlling the laminar flow over the nose by painting the fuselage a single uniform gray color, maybe they could improve the efficiency even more. And if they leave off all fuselage decals, then the entire surface of the plane could be very smooth except for the windows. Maybe if they left out cabin windows they would save the weight and complexity of having windows altogether and the laminar flow would be better - a double savings.

User currently offlineFirennice From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 81 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (8 years 2 weeks ago) and read 14447 times:

Quoting MCIGuy (Reply 12):
Wow, very coo RichardPrice, I never even thought of that, embedded liveries. Would make it beach when they want to change liveries though, wouldn't it?

Throw it away and get a new one.....or paint the entire thing over.


User currently offlineF14ATomcat From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 88 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (8 years 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 13944 times:

I guess the interesting thing here is 30,000 gallons per year = 577 gallons per week.... Say six long flights per week = apprx 100 gallons per flight and @ $2.00 per gallon = $200 per flight. It's something.... But by itself not worth writing home to mom about.

User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21472 posts, RR: 60
Reply 17, posted (8 years 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 13779 times:

Assume average usage of 6 days out of 7 per week (which allows for checks and such throughout the year). The average 787 will make 2 flights a day, or 12 flights a week or 625 or so a year. That's really only 48 gallons a flight or $100 a flight, or on a 788, $0.50 cents per pax.

So, is a distinctive engine livery worth $0.50 per pax? Only an airline would know for sure, but considering the lengths an airline will go through to save a few cents per pax on other things (pillows, pretzels, etc.)...



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineCentrair From Japan, joined Jan 2005, 3598 posts, RR: 20
Reply 18, posted (8 years 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 13600 times:

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 11):
How soon until we see liveries being applied directly into the top composite layer instead of over the layer using paint?

Should be interesting.

The paint is baked on isn't it? If a 787 is leased, that means it could be used at many different airlines over its life. So how do you repaint a 787?



Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
User currently offlineGlennstewart From Australia, joined Jun 2003, 1124 posts, RR: 54
Reply 19, posted (8 years 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 13395 times:

Quoting MCIGuy (Reply 7):
Last check showed that the 787 is indeed around 1% over the target weight.

Boeing should take a leaf from Mazda's book.
Although an airliners and a sports car can't be compared, I found Mazda's focus on weight saving in their new MX-5, was an amazing feat.

The main key of designing the MX-5 was to ensure it was recognisable as being an MX-5 and had the same sports car performance. Unfortunately, with the addition of many new safety features (required in some countries by law), the weight was bound to increase.

The Mazda engineers were told to review every single part in the car. When they revealed the vehicle, they made an example of the side mirrors - where they were able to save 84 grams on just that piece.

Over the whole car, they saved enough to compensate for 250kg of extra safety equipment - with an overall increase of a mere 50kg over the previous model.

The convertible hardtop version was recently unveiled in the UK. Car mags around the world were assuming two things:

1. Too much extra weight
2. Too much space taken up in boot/trunk

Mazda released the hardtop noting that the entire hardtop section weighed a tiny 30kg, and it folded in such a way, that it took up no extra room in boot.

Amazing engineering!!!


Glenn



Respected users.... If my replies are useful, then by all means...
User currently offlineBoeingBus From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1596 posts, RR: 18
Reply 20, posted (8 years 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 12887 times:

Check it out...

Big version: Width: 450 Height: 300 File size: 15kb


Why gray? wish it was white...



Airbus or Boeing - it's all good to me!
User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 960 posts, RR: 51
Reply 21, posted (8 years 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 12652 times:

Quoting Centrair (Reply 18):

The paint is baked on isn't it? If a 787 is leased, that means it could be used at many different airlines over its life. So how do you repaint a 787?

No, the 787 fuselage emerges from the autoclave appearing a charcole color. This is coated with a primer, and then the airline colors.

Paint removal is likely simmilar to that of a conventional aircraft, with attention to solvents and abrasives that won't compromise the CFRP. Notice the interior, unpainted section of this fuselage barrel, and this unpainted nose section -





User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21472 posts, RR: 60
Reply 22, posted (8 years 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 12613 times:

They chose grey for the livery. White will probably look too dirty in all the photos they will take over the time of the testing. And in sunlight, grey will look pretty white.

But any airline can choose any livery they want. To take advantage of the tweak, they would just need a single color, no decals or patterns.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineChrisNH From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 4083 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (8 years 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 11976 times:

so much for a Wanula  spin  Dreaming 787, I guess

User currently offlineAAgent From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 560 posts, RR: 14
Reply 24, posted (8 years 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 11917 times:

Quoting BoeingBus (Reply 20):
Why gray?

Perhaps Boeing is fishing for an aircraft order from AA. They've painted the nacels the right color. Now if Boeing would just offer a shiny polished aluminum skin appearance package for the fuselage, a 787 order from AA would be greatly encouraged.

Best Regards,
AAgent



War Eagle!
25 Zamaria : This seems like a good idea. On a related fuel-saving idea note, anybody know what happened to the idea that I thought Boeing was testing regarding at
26 Post contains images WingedMigrator : What a brilliant idea! Sounds like something that could be applied to the tail as well! More seriously, how can this possibly matter compared to cowl
27 Centrair : Thank you DFWrevolution. I get it now. So this grey doesn't effect the frame but the engines only? So if I understand this, an airline can choose any
28 DfwRevolution : Right: Any solid color will have a slight aerodynamic advantage over an engine nacelle with decals or paintlines. Boeing has simply chosen a grey sha
29 Grbld : For those that think a $200 savings per flight or $0.50 per passenger savings per flight is peanuts, consider this: The airline I work for carried 5 m
30 Post contains images Gary2880 : your joking??? god help the pilot if he clatters one in to a bird. as for painting this 787, why not paint it as normal, then dip it in a nice coat o
31 Molykote : I own an MX-5 and I've personally handled hundreds of the components of an MX-5. I don't see how 550lb of "extra" safety equipment made its way into
32 Post contains images MCIGuy : Well yeah, it can make a difference in the RCS of the frames you mentioned, but maintenence fubars will happen.   I think what they're saying at Boe
33 Vzlet : All of these queries/points... ...were addressed in the initial post:
34 Post contains images DfwRevolution : Yeah I was clarifying it for someone who asked. Way to waste text and be a tool...
35 DAYflyer : Talk about fine tweaking an airplane before roll out, wow.
36 RoseFlyer : All improvements are good. Making a blanket statement like your assumption is ridiculous. I work in producibility at the moment and spend much of my
37 Post contains links DfwRevolution : Having just read a Flight International article on this topic, it would appear to conflict with what I assumed from the Boeing press relase: Accordin
38 Post contains images Scouseflyer : They could get around all of this by making the skin out of my patented Chameleon Carbon Fibre that can display anything required - livery, adverts,
39 RoseFlyer : Well carbon fiber itself is somewhat transparent. So all you need is a good matrix material, and boom, free advertising on the side of a plane! That
40 FriendlySkies : I doubt only grey paint can be used...I mean, is blue paint chemically "thicker" than grey?
41 Willyj : or you could look at it as $60,000 per plane per year...
42 Ikramerica : But it all comes down to pax flown, not planes. Planes sitting still do nothing. Only when they fly pax do they achieve anything. So costs are though
43 Post contains images Jacobin777 : actually the henderson-hasselbach equation is quite straightforward, especially in the presence of a strong buffer..
44 RoseFlyer : Sorry I'm an idiot. I should have paid more attention in college classes. I was talking about the Haaland equation, which lets you determine the roug
45 Post contains images SlimChance : Thank you, you reminded me that I need a good stiff drink.
46 Post contains links GBan : The article (Seattle Post) quoted in this thread says 2.5%: Article: Lightning Protection On The B787 (by Grantcv Jul 12 2006 in Civil Aviation)
47 Willyj : Okay, great. But regardless, the estimated savings are $60k per plane per year - and that's actually what the airlines would save. As a passenger $.5
48 Post contains images Jacobin777 : no apologies needed... eek..this looks like an engineering problem....I'll take Quantum Mechanics instead for $500 please...
49 Ikramerica : No, it's not. If the plane doesn't fly, you save ZERO dollars per plane. My $0.50 per pax is based on utilizing the plane well. The worse you do at t
50 VirginFlyer : I read that as meaning the paint was a specific thickness all the way around with no discontinuities, not that there was a specific thickness the pai
51 Rheinbote : While everyone was quick to point out what the benefit would be, how about the cost of - elminiating all access panels, orifices and protuberances wi
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