Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
PC-12 For Airline Service  
User currently offlineSBNair3022 From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 110 posts, RR: 0
Posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 5383 times:

Just wondering, what do yawl think about the PC-12 if it were used on scheduled services. I know there was Westward Airways of NE that operated for a while, not sure how many PC-12 they had, but its a neat little plane, but what would passengers think?? What do you think??

THANKS!


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © JumboJim747


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Erik Frikke




SBNair!!
23 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlinePlanespotting From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 3539 posts, RR: 5
Reply 1, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 5365 times:

I wouldn't imagine there are enough seats to cover the operating costs, which while being fairly cheap as far as corp. aviation goes, still are a bit high for efficient airline operations.


Do you like movies about gladiators?
User currently offlineGlydrflyr From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 207 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 5338 times:

Unfortunately, many passengers view prop driven airplanes, no matter how expensive, reliable or sophisticated as "Piper Cubs" and won't fly them, no matter what. They would go for the VLJs now coming on the market, since they are "Real" airplanes with jet engines.


if ya gotta crash, hit something soft and cheap!
User currently offlineSBNair3022 From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 110 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 5319 times:

wouldn't the VLJ's have operational costs that would cause it to not even be considered by airlines? I know the PC-12 has operated scheduled service, has a VLJ?

[Edited 2006-07-11 00:30:06]


SBNair!!
User currently offlineThomas_Jaeger From Switzerland, joined Apr 2002, 2397 posts, RR: 28
Reply 4, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 5271 times:

There are still some Canadian operators using the PC-12 for scheduled services if I remember correctly.


Swiss aviation news junkie living all over the place
User currently offlineSBNair3022 From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 110 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 5222 times:

If an airline flying the PC-12 was the only airline in town though, do you think people would stear clear of it because it operated a single engine prop plane?


SBNair!!
User currently offlineBoeing Nut From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 5214 times:

Quoting Glydrflyr (Reply 2):
Unfortunately, many passengers view prop driven airplanes, no matter how expensive, reliable or sophisticated as "Piper Cubs" and won't fly them, no matter what. They would go for the VLJs now coming on the market, since they are "Real" airplanes with jet engines.

As far as the passengers go, it doesn't matter a hoot what the passeners think. It matters what the airline thinks. The PC-12 is an amazing aircraft. In fact, in certain markets, you would either have an hour flight on a PC-12, or you have a minimum of an eight hour drive because there simply is no other alterative. Tell the passengers they have a choice of either that eight to nine hour drive or a flight of less than an hour, then you'll see where the true demand is.

Personally, I think the PC-12 is nothing less than a brilliant idea in certain markets. Especially with it's recent upgrades.


User currently offlineNWDC10 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 5208 times:

The PC-12 would be the perfect "air taxi" aircraft to compete against the Light Weight Jets that are due in sevice soon like the Eclipse. But the PC-12 is probably for shorter distance but still a great aircraft to use. Robert NWDC10

User currently offlineConnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 8, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 5196 times:

Quoting SBNair3022 (Thread starter):
Just wondering, what do yawl think about the PC-12 if it were used on scheduled services. I know there was Westward Airways of NE that operated for a while, not sure how many PC-12 they had, but its a neat little plane, but what would passengers think?? What do you think??

THANKS!



Quoting Planespotting (Reply 1):
I wouldn't imagine there are enough seats to cover the operating costs, which while being fairly cheap as far as corp. aviation goes, still are a bit high for efficient airline operations.



Quoting Thomas_Jaeger (Reply 4):
There are still some Canadian operators using the PC-12 for scheduled services if I remember correctly.

Bearskin Airlines of Sioux Lookout ON was using them, as I used to see them at YWG quite often. Usually Winnipeg-Red Lake-Sioux Lookout-Thunder Bay, Thunder Bay-Sudbury-Ottawa, and Ottawa-Toronto(Buttonville). However, I just looked at www.bearskinairlines.com and it shows the current fleet makeup as Metroliners, Beech 99 and Beech King Air 100. I suspect Planespotting is right.



Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
User currently offlineBond007 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 5454 posts, RR: 8
Reply 9, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 5192 times:

Quoting NWDC10 (Reply 7):
The PC-12 would be the perfect "air taxi" aircraft to compete against the Light Weight Jets that are due in sevice soon like the Eclipse. But the PC-12 is probably for shorter distance but still a great aircraft to use

Right, but you only need to look where small turboprops are used for airline ops ...the King Air has been available for years, and it's use in the airline world is limited.

Now, there is a small market of course...especially where the Cessna 402's are used now for Cape Air etc.


Jimbo



I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
User currently offlineSBNair3022 From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 110 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 5183 times:

How much is the VLJ going to cost? Say the Eclipse, it is a jet so will it cost more the price of a business jet, or more like the operational costs of the PC-12.

Thanks for all this input guys! I just can't find all that much information searching around for the PC-12 in airline service, and I get more straight forward answers on here! Thanks!!



SBNair!!
User currently offlineTIMEAIR From Canada, joined May 2005, 436 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 5126 times:

Peace Air based out of YPE in North Central Alberta operates the PC12 to the following cities....

YYC - YXD. YMM. YXJ. YQU. YOJ. YPE.
YXD - YMM. YOJ. YPE. YYE. YXJ. YQU
YEG - YMM
And will op when loads warrant to YLL. YQF. or YOD from the major centres.



You can't get there from here.
User currently offlineJayce From Canada, joined Nov 1999, 520 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 5007 times:

Montair and Airsprint operate them as well, though I'm pretty sure those are just charters. The RCMP and Government of Canada both have a sizeable fleet, though those aren't used in scheduled airline service.

As far as airlines go and in addition to the ones above, Wasaya Air uses them all over Western Ontario from a base at Sioux Lookout. Pascan Aviation uses them throughout Quebec. Up North, Kivalliq Air flies them all around Nunavut and down to YWG.



"Trying is the first step towards failure" -Homer Simpson
User currently offlineYOW From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 4982 times:

Kivalliq Air in the far north uses them on skeds between places like Rankin and Cambridge Bay. I'm pretty sure Wasaya in Northern Ontario uses PC-12s too.

User currently offlineGlydrflyr From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 207 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 4954 times:

Quoting Boeing Nut (Reply 6):

Well, let's take a look at the logistics. One hour of flying time in the PC-12, at cruise, in no wind conditions, will get you 310 miles from your departure point. The same 310 miles does equal a six hour drive, averaging 50 mph. But, the traveler has to get from their home to the airport, wait one hour, (security, ya know), board, taxi out, fly to destination, (less than 310 miles) deplane, get ground transportation and drive to final destination. The actual time enroute is going to be very close.

Many of my clients (I have a limo business) would not fly on the turboprop short haul flights when they were still operating out of EWR, electing instead to drive to Boston or Washington, or taking the train. They tell us they won't go on those "Piper Cubs". It would be interesting to see, if a traveler had a choice of chartering a VLJ at $1.75 per mile, or going on a PC-12 what they would take.

Air taxi operators envision VLJ charges to the passenger at $ 1.00 to $ 3.00 per mile, with the low end of this rate overlapping our sedan rate. If they can actually make money at these rates remains to be seen, but they will have the added advantage of getting in and out of fields too small to accommodate the PC-12, so perhaps the convenience of getting closer to the actual destination will command a premium rate.



if ya gotta crash, hit something soft and cheap!
User currently offlineVirginFlyer From New Zealand, joined Sep 2000, 4575 posts, RR: 41
Reply 15, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 4869 times:

Quoting Glydrflyr (Reply 14):
fields too small to accommodate the PC-12

I was under the impression the PC-12 was able to handle fairly short fields. I know the Royal Flying Doctors Service (RFDS) uses them out here on some fairly short, unsealed strips. Will the VLJ's actually have better field performance than the PC-12?

Quoting SBNair3022 (Reply 5):
single engine

That's the issue I've heard raised often. I know there are restrictions placed on single engine IFR for regular public transport in this part of the world... I had the opportunity to speak to a sales rep from Pilatus Australia a while back. I asked him about the single engine issue, and he said that yes, there have been some people concerned about it. He pointed out however that there have been more accidents and more fatalities caused by an engine failure in a piston twin than by an engine failure in a turbine single. He also pointed out that if there is an engine failure, the aircraft is able to glide to a landing, and the computer will even suggest the best airport to reach. I asked someone else not associated with Pilatus about this, and they said they'd been up in a PC-12, and asked the same thing, and had it demonstrated to them. So technically, there is no real issue over it being a single. Obviously there are some regulatory hurdles, but the biggest problem is always going to be convincing the general public, who sadly know next to nothing about aviation, and think propeller = old = unsafe...

V/F



"So powerful is the light of unity that it can illuminate the whole earth." - Bahá'u'lláh
User currently offlineHighflier92660 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 697 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 4791 times:

I believe Tradewind Aviation uses PC-12's on a charter route from notoriously short St. Barts in the Carribean to San Juan. The airport was marginally improved recently with the realignment of the road and a small reduction of the hill slope at the approach end of the 2100 foot runway. The runway was re-paved but not extended past St. Jean beach.

User currently offlineBond007 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 5454 posts, RR: 8
Reply 17, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 4776 times:

Quoting Glydrflyr (Reply 14):
Well, let's take a look at the logistics. One hour of flying time in the PC-12, at cruise, in no wind conditions, will get you 310 miles from your departure point. The same 310 miles does equal a six hour drive, averaging 50 mph. But, the traveler has to get from their home to the airport, wait one hour, (security, ya know), board, taxi out, fly to destination, (less than 310 miles) deplane, get ground transportation and drive to final destination. The actual time enroute is going to be very close.

For flights of one hour or less, that argument is valid for pistons, turboprops, or 4 engine airliners. Almost every flight, however short, takes around 5-6 hours door to door. An airliner really doesn't have much time advantage over a turbine single for short flights ... in fact one might argue that boarding time is negligible (5 mins), and it can fly into an airport much closer to your destination with much faster security, better parking etc. etc.

Quoting Glydrflyr (Reply 14):
If they can actually make money at these rates remains to be seen, but they will have the added advantage of getting in and out of fields too small to accommodate the PC-12, so perhaps the convenience of getting closer to the actual destination will command a premium rate.

No, I think you'll find the VLJs will need longer runways than the PC12. The Eclipse is 2200ft vs 1800ft for the PC12 ... and think that's conservative for the PC12.

Quoting VirginFlyer (Reply 15):
He pointed out however that there have been more accidents and more fatalities caused by an engine failure in a piston twin than by an engine failure in a turbine single.

Actually more in turbine twins than turbine singles. The PC12 has extremely docile landing characteristics under no or low power (ie slow). Unfortunately there are many twin crashes mainly due to training issues with operating with one engine .... for example shutting down good engine, not controlling excess yaw etc.


Jimbo



I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
User currently offlineWe're Nuts From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5722 posts, RR: 19
Reply 18, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 4704 times:

I'll admit up front I don't know a hoot about the operating economics of the PC-12, but one of the major challenges for local and regional service aircraft is making them not only profitable, but cheap for customers. A thirty-minute flight in a B1900 shouldn't cost anywhere near as much as a two-hour flight in a 737. If the PC-12 doesn't have enough seats to pass savings on to customers, it will drive up fares in every market the airline flies to and send potential travelers looking for alternative modes of transportation.


Dear moderators: No.
User currently offlineZSOFN From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2005, 1413 posts, RR: 5
Reply 19, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 4687 times:

Having had the pleasure of spending some time in the right hand seat of a PC-12, I have to say it's an incredible aircraft. I doubt it would be well suited for airline ops in most cases; it's designed to be a high performance aircraft (we landed on very short unprepared strips etc), whilst you can easily pack more people and payload into a C208B and get the job done, albeit a little slower but cheaper.

User currently offlineSBNair3022 From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 110 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 4662 times:

if i were a passenger though the PC-12 looks like a more modern aircraft than the caravan, obviously you can get a brand new caravan but the general public doesnt know that, so in your opinion do you think the public would take more of a liking to the PC-12 or the Cessna Caravan?

Also is there a huge difference in the operational costs of these two?

It says on Cessna's website that the Caravan can be profitable with less then 4 passengers, how did they come up with that number??? Anyone have a clue??



SBNair!!
User currently offlineCRJonBeez From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 317 posts, RR: 3
Reply 21, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 4610 times:

Quoting SBNair3022 (Reply 10):
How much is the VLJ going to cost?

they're pushing between 1.1-2.25 million

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 9):
the King Air has been available for years, and it's use in the airline world is limited.

tell that to great lakes and commutair with their B190s. the 1900D shares more than a few parts with the bigger king airs

Quoting Glydrflyr (Reply 2):
Unfortunately, many passengers view prop driven airplanes, no matter how expensive, reliable or sophisticated as "Piper Cubs" and won't fly them, no matter what. They would go for the VLJs now coming on the market, since they are "Real" airplanes with jet engines.

given the statistics of the PC12, Meridian, TBM, etc, that's a lousy comment. i hold no favorings toward any one aircraft, but how do you compare two completely different a/c, one of which hasn't even been certified yet? in 3 years of corporate aviation, i haven't once heard "i would NEVER fly on a turboprop" out of a passenger's mouth. keep in mind that's from the demand of passengers accustomed to part 91/135. it's an uneducated assumption that because planes of yesterday used props, the new ones must be outdated technology. the PT6-X has been a tremendous engine since inception, along with the constant barrage of new avionics offered in the different a/c. TAWS and TCAS systems are constantly being upgraded for improved safety, as well as glass cockpits in general. the garmin G1000 is being fitted in several VLJs, as well as turboprops and pistons.

beech/raytheon was approached by a company a while back about investing in a VLJ project. raytheon stuck to their guns, instead upgrading to the king air C90GT. what happened to that company? they gave up on their VLJ platform. that's not to say that all intro-jets in the new market they're creating will fail, but putting so much faith into one sort of a/c is awfully limiting. i have more faith in eclipse than anybody else, but that doesn't mean the operators won't screw things up.....


User currently offlineBond007 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 5454 posts, RR: 8
Reply 22, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 4600 times:

Quoting CRJonBeez (Reply 21):
tell that to great lakes and commutair with their B190s. the 1900D shares more than a few parts with the bigger king airs

Right, but it's not a King Air, or a PC12. The 1900D was designed as a commuter aircraft.

Hey, I'm on your side  Smile

Jimbo



I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
User currently offlineBoeing7E7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 4564 times:

Quoting SBNair3022 (Reply 3):
wouldn't the VLJ's have operational costs that would cause it to not even be considered by airlines? I know the PC-12 has operated scheduled service, has a VLJ?

I have zero belief in the VLJ having a major market impact. With the exception of Embraer, these were all designed when fuel was half what it is now. The cost model has imploded on them. They are now nothing more than expensive turboprops for the guy that can't afford a Challenger or replacements for aging Cessna Citations and older Lears.

Adam shows a cost model with gas at $3.10 most prices are in the $4.80-5.00 range.

[Edited 2006-07-13 07:49:35]

Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Cool Navigation Upgrade For PC-12 posted Sun Nov 9 2003 18:27:53 by Boeing nut
Business Class Travel For Airline Employees? posted Thu Nov 16 2006 21:00:21 by Paul
Yesterday(11/1) Marked 51yrs For Airline Bombing posted Thu Nov 2 2006 20:59:01 by Skyexramper
Pilatus Announces The Next Generation PC-12 posted Mon Oct 16 2006 20:13:10 by Airimages
TOL Recieves Fed Grant For NYC Service posted Fri Aug 25 2006 18:56:23 by Tys777
Airline Service -- Two Part Story posted Wed Aug 2 2006 02:37:18 by Aviateur
Airline Service At Boca Raton? posted Fri Jul 28 2006 19:42:03 by Bucks918
Airline Service Back In SLE? posted Thu Jul 20 2006 06:45:47 by UnitedFlyer
Cessna Caravan Vs. PC-12 posted Thu Jul 13 2006 05:33:02 by SBNair3022
New Airline Service To San Diego posted Mon Jul 10 2006 20:14:52 by B737100