LY777 From France, joined Nov 2005, 1630 posts, RR: 3 Posted (3 years 4 months 19 hours ago) and read 2325 times:
I am sure it had been discussed before, but I wonder why CO has 762ERs and 764s in its fleet and no 763s(whereas the 763 is the most popular 767 type)!!!
Da man From United States, joined Sep 2001, 887 posts, RR: 16 Reply 1, posted (3 years 4 months 19 hours ago) and read 2268 times:
You're right, this has been discussed before.
CO had orders for the 763, but they were cancelled.
Boeing actually built some 767-324ERs, and they were sold to Vietnam and DL if I recall correctly.
DAL767400ER From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 5434 posts, RR: 54 Reply 2, posted (3 years 4 months 18 hours ago) and read 2202 times:
Quoting Da man (Reply 1): Boeing actually built some 767-324ERs, and they were sold to Vietnam and DL if I recall correctly.
In the case of the DL plane, that actually was first sold to ASIANA, before it found its way to Delta via some lessor, GECAS IIRC.
As for the question at hand, CO doesn't have 763s because they didn't think it was the right plane for them size-wise. Of course times change, and I'm sure current management would be happy to actually have those planes, if just for the ability to add more transatl flights faster.
Dutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 61 Reply 3, posted (3 years 4 months 18 hours ago) and read 2186 times:
CO ordered ten 763ERs....5 were produced but since CO could not accept delivery of the aircraft for financial reasons, the 5 airplanes were sold off the assembly line to leasing companies. As the airplanes were already in production, they were designated 767-324ERs although CO never accepted delivery of or flew these aircraft. The second 5 airplanes were never produced.
The 767-324ERs have flown with Asiana, Ansett Australia, VietNam Airlnes, North American and other carriers. It is ironic that one of the airplanes has been in service with DL for many years.
The "CO 763s" was recently discussed on another thread.....I had heard and someone confirmed that some of these 763s (including the ones operated by Viet Nam) had CO-style interior fittings which I thought was rather interesing........it was also confirmed that the DL aircraft has a standard DL interior.
Terminalc From United States, joined Feb 2001, 130 posts, RR: 0 Reply 4, posted (3 years 4 months 18 hours ago) and read 2137 times:
Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 3): had heard and someone confirmed that some of these 763s (including the ones operated by Viet Nam) had CO-style interior fittings which I thought was rather interesing........
They absolutely do. The flashlights say Continental on the sides & the exit signs also say Salida. They have 1st gen BizFirst seats and are quite comfy though very worn.
Dutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 61 Reply 5, posted (3 years 4 months 17 hours ago) and read 2054 times:
Quoting LY777 (Thread starter): I am sure it had been discussed before, but I wonder why CO has 762ERs and 764s in its fleet and no 763s(whereas the 763 is the most popular 767 type)!!!
To answer your question more directly.......CO went with the 764ER since it was closer in capacity to the DC10s that they were replacing; there is another thread about this, but Boeing came up with the 764ER as a DC10/L1011 replacement for CO and DL, both airlines thought that replacing their older widebodies with 772s would be over-kill and neither wanted to reduce seating to the levels provided by the 763, thus the 764ER emerged. In the end, only DL and CO ordered the type which is probably not what Boeing had in mind, but thats another story.
CO, at almost the same time, "special ordered" ten 762ERs.....Boeing had not produced new build 762s in quite a while when CO ordered them. CO specifically wanted the type to fly long thin routes where there was high J class and some cargo demand, the 762ER is CO's business jet so to speak. Was the 762ER the right choice, who knows, they allow CO to fly some long routes with a modest seat count (CO tends to use smaller aircraft in many longhaul markets, less seats can mean higher fares and better yeilds) and they are very nice airplanes.....but $70+ oil was not considered when the 762ERs were designed, ordered or delivered.
CO did not need an additional type to slot inbetween the 175 pax 762 and 235 pax 764, thus no 763s were ever ordered.........although there are rumors from time to time that CO will add used 763ERs to boost its international fleet; my opinion is that if it has not happened yet, its not happening...CO will simply wait for its 787s to be delivered.
RoseFlyer From United States, joined Feb 2004, 5614 posts, RR: 27 Reply 6, posted (3 years 4 months 17 hours ago) and read 1958 times:
Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 5): .but $70+ oil was not considered when the 762ERs were designed, ordered or delivered.
Well I think a bigger factor was that Continental was not considering putting 757s on thin routes. The 757 has made the small 762ER not as useful. It has more range, but the penalty is that it is a lot heavier. The 763ER would probably suit CO more since they don't benefit from the smaller 767. The smallest size of a family of aircraft usually is the least efficient and often does not sell very well (exampes are the 736, A318, A342).
$70 fuel prices were actually thought of (well not quite because of inflation) when the 762 was designed since it was proposed and developed during the 1970s oil crisis. The 762 is much more efficient than the 707 that it replaced, but the stretched versions are much more efficient, which is usually true.
Cedarjet From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 7029 posts, RR: 57 Reply 7, posted (3 years 4 months 17 hours ago) and read 1955 times:
Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 5): In the end, only DL and CO ordered the type which is probably not what Boeing had in mind, but thats another story.
I'm not so sure, I wouldn't be surprised if keeping CO and DL in the Boeing camp was enough to justify the 767-400. As said above, the 777 was too much aeroplane, whereas the A330 would have hit the spot quite nicely. To stop CO and DL buying 40 A330s each and giving Airbus a foot in the door would be worth a lot to Boeing I would think. These are, after all, the two biggest all-Boeing airlines in the world (OK DL have some MD80s).
Am I the only one who read the peak oil article in Airways mag? It's $70 now, economists are planning on $120 oil and $200 is not far off. A seperate conversation but I can't believe how rarely it's a topic here. Aviation is an endangered species, and will almost completely end in our lifetimes. Seperate conversation to why CO didn't end up with 767-300s, but has a bearing on almost every topic here. Airbus v Boeing is all well and good, but how about horse v ox? Brace yourselves.
Yes! Senator Obama. We are ready to believe again.
Crosswind From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2000, 2484 posts, RR: 61 Reply 8, posted (3 years 4 months 16 hours ago) and read 1901 times:
Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 3): The "CO 763s" was recently discussed on another thread.....I had heard and someone confirmed that some of these 763s (including the ones operated by Viet Nam) had CO-style interior fittings which I thought was rather interesing........it was also confirmed that the DL aircraft has a standard DL interior.
Yes, it's true. I have seen photos of First Choice's 3 ex-VN B767-324s before they were refurbished. All 3 had full Continental interiors including Business First seats and Continental seat-covers etc, despite neve having flown for Continental and being in service with Vietnam Airlines for almost 10 years.
I have to say I was quite surprised when I saw the photos for the first time...
Quoting Terminalc (Reply 4): They absolutely do. The flashlights say Continental on the sides & the exit signs also say Salida. They have 1st gen BizFirst seats and are quite comfy though very worn.
All traces of Continental now gone from these aircraft...
Gigneil From United States, joined exactly 7 years ago today! , 13883 posts, RR: 89 Reply 9, posted (3 years 4 months 14 hours ago) and read 1789 times:
Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 6): The smallest size of a family of aircraft usually is the least efficient and often does not sell very well (exampes are the 736, A318, A342).
The 736 and 318 are shrinks. They're heavy. The 762 was the original model, and not quite so.
Quoting Crosswind (Reply 8): All traces of Continental now gone from these aircraft...
Um, wow, including the Signature Interior. Why would FCA downgrade to the Enhanced Interior?
Crosswind From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2000, 2484 posts, RR: 61 Reply 10, posted (3 years 4 months 14 hours ago) and read 1736 times:
Quoting Gigneil (Reply 9): Um, wow, including the Signature Interior. Why would FCA downgrade to the Enhanced Interior?
Because these aircraft never had the signature interior?
I think you're confusing the 767-200/-400 fleet with the earlier -300 order.
Continental's never-delivered 767-324s were built in 1995, years before the signature interior was even considered for use on the 767...
WorldTraveler From United States, joined Aug 2003, 6683 posts, RR: 29 Reply 11, posted (3 years 4 months 11 hours ago) and read 1598 times:
An empty 762 is about 50K pounds heavier than a 757 even though they carry similar number of passengers. The benefit of the heavier 762 only makes sense for routes 4000 miles or more. On those lengths, the economics of having only 180 seats is much harder to justify.
The 763 can carry much more cargo than the 762; cargo is a major contributor to the profitability of long haul flights.
Dl_mech From United States, joined Feb 2000, 1307 posts, RR: 12 Reply 12, posted (3 years 4 months 11 hours ago) and read 1531 times:
Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 3): it was also confirmed that the DL aircraft has a standard DL interior.
........except for the "signature" lavender PSU's used by CO. Ship 1521 still had CO galleys and equipment, but Asiana seat covers when delivered to DL. All of this was removed before revenue DL service. There is a North American 767-324 that still has all of it's CO equipment though.
JohnJ From United States, joined Jun 2000, 1274 posts, RR: 4 Reply 13, posted (3 years 4 months 10 hours ago) and read 1499 times:
My one and only visit to the Boeing plant was in 1995 and during the flight line part of the tour a couple of the CO 767-300s were out there. I have some video I shot from the hill outside the facility where you can clearly see the Continental logo on the tail of the aircraft. At that time Continental didn't operate any variant of the 767, so I guess I have some fairly rare video footage.
Da man From United States, joined Sep 2001, 887 posts, RR: 16 Reply 14, posted (3 years 4 months 9 hours ago) and read 1435 times:
Quoting JohnJ (Reply 13): I have some video I shot from the hill outside the facility where you can clearly see the Continental logo on the tail of the aircraft. At that time Continental didn't operate any variant of the 767, so I guess I have some fairly rare video footage.
I would love to be able to see that footage.
It would be great if you could post it to youtube.
Dutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 61 Reply 15, posted (3 years 4 months 4 hours ago) and read 1342 times:
Quoting JohnJ (Reply 13): My one and only visit to the Boeing plant was in 1995 and during the flight line part of the tour a couple of the CO 767-300s were out there. I have some video I shot from the hill outside the facility where you can clearly see the Continental logo on the tail of the aircraft. At that time Continental didn't operate any variant of the 767, so I guess I have some fairly rare video footage.
That is rather cool....you actually do have some rare footage. Can you imagine the confusion it would set off here at a.net? All of rumors that CO was acquiring 2nd hand 763ERs would resurface yet again.
I did not know that the subject airplanes (or some of the airplanes) were painted in full CO colors......the story was that the airplanes "were sold off of he line" which can mean many things.
Paul From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 374 posts, RR: 8 Reply 16, posted (3 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 1224 times:
To be honest I think the 763 is one of the least attractive planes to fly on. It may be one of the most fuel efficient passenger jets around but is really ageing and just does not match up against its bigger brother the 777 or its rival the 330. I am glad it is being phased out, its time for the old workhorse to be put out to pasture.
DAL767400ER From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 5434 posts, RR: 54 Reply 17, posted (3 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 1201 times:
Quoting Paul (Reply 16): I am glad it is being phased out, its time for the old workhorse to be put out to pasture.
Um, phased out by whom? And "old workhorse"? Many of the "old workhorse" 763s are still younger than the oldests 777s out there, not to mention they are still being produced by Boeing.
FlyHoss From United States, joined Feb 2005, 598 posts, RR: 0 Reply 18, posted (3 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 1166 times:
Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 15): Quoting JohnJ (Reply 13):
My one and only visit to the Boeing plant was in 1995 and during the flight line part of the tour a couple of the CO 767-300s were out there. I have some video I shot from the hill outside the facility where you can clearly see the Continental logo on the tail of the aircraft. At that time Continental didn't operate any variant of the 767, so I guess I have some fairly rare video footage.
That is rather cool....you actually do have some rare footage. Can you imagine the confusion it would set off here at a.net? All of rumors that CO was acquiring 2nd hand 763ERs would resurface yet again.
I did not know that the subject airplanes (or some of the airplanes) were painted in full CO colors......
You might want to reread JohnJ's post again. He commented about the CO logo on the tail, not a full paint job. AW&ST published a photo with all 5 planes, with just the sliver of the CO logo on the rudders; otherwise, they were white.
Paul From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 374 posts, RR: 8 Reply 19, posted (3 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 1162 times:
Gradually being phased out by many airline/ soon to be replaced by newer planes, basically the same thing! Have you flown on a UA or AC 763 recently, believe me, its not a pretty sight.
Besides how many times has the 763 been reffered to as a workhorse? As many times as I have eaten hot meals!
CPDC10-30 From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2000, 4656 posts, RR: 33 Reply 20, posted (3 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 1162 times:
Quoting Paul (Reply 16): To be honest I think the 763 is one of the least attractive planes to fly on
What on earth are you talking about? The 767 has the best seating layout of any aircraft, 2-3-2 in Y and 1-2-2 (or similar but rearranged) in J - whats not to like?
Magyarorszag From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 21, posted (3 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 1141 times:
Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 3): CO ordered ten 763ERs....5 were produced
Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 3): The 767-324ERs have flown with Asiana, Ansett Australia, VietNam Airlnes, North American and other carriers. It is ironic that one of the airplanes has been in service with DL for many years.
These are the five MSN and respective first operator after the CO cancellation:
27392: VN / 27393: OZ / 27394: BI / 27568: VN / 27569: AN.
Alitalia744 From United States, joined Mar 2000, 4295 posts, RR: 46 Reply 22, posted (3 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 1126 times:
Quoting Paul (Reply 16): To be honest I think the 763 is one of the least attractive planes to fly on. It may be one of the most fuel efficient passenger jets around but is really ageing and just does not match up against its bigger brother the 777 or its rival the 330. I am glad it is being phased out, its time for the old workhorse to be put out to pasture.
Paul
767 is an awesome bird, give me one any day over the A330.
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