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It's Airbus' Turn To Be Humble At Air Show  
User currently offlineLeelaw From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 10209 times:

The Boeing Co. has been there before.

Now it's time to find out how Airbus handles adversity on the industry's biggest stage....

"...The first half of the year was grim for Airbus," Aboulafia said. "I'm sure they will come up with something."


http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/277376_airshow13.html

James Wallace's pre-Farnborough rundown is a good read; hopefully, it sparks some good discussion. If "humility" is the watchword this year, perhaps John Leahy's role at Farnborough will be muted, he doesn't seem to do "humble" well?

[Edited 2006-07-13 08:26:04]

[Edited 2006-07-13 08:56:36]

39 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineTifoso From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 440 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 10169 times:

Here's an interesting excerpt from the article:

Quote:
Boeing, which had firm orders for 480 planes in the first half of 2006, is not likely to announce many new jetliner orders at Farnborough. There has been speculation that Boeing would use the air show to announce the first airline customer for its 747-8 passenger plane. But that won't happen, according to people with knowledge of Boeing's plans.

Humm, that is very different from what I expected (or hoped for).  Sad


User currently offlineMBJ2000 From Germany, joined Dec 2005, 426 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 9849 times:

Did you read that?
"The A380 superjumbo..."
Some people here in the forum should finally acknowledge that term...  Wink



Like most of life's problems, this one can be solved with bending -- Bender Unit 22
User currently offlineAither From South Korea, joined Oct 2004, 859 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 9841 times:

This forum is getting better than google news !


Never trust the obvious
User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 4, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 9589 times:

Quoting Tifoso (Reply 1):
Quote:
Boeing, which had firm orders for 480 planes in the first half of 2006, is not likely to announce many new jetliner orders at Farnborough. There has been speculation that Boeing would use the air show to announce the first airline customer for its 747-8 passenger plane. But that won't happen, according to people with knowledge of Boeing's plans.

On the other hand, here's an article (Reuters) that says Boeing will have a few surprises at the show:

Quote:
The U.S. planemaker is set to dominate Britain's Farnborough air show with a stream of new orders for its 787 Dreamliner and other jets, which are already outselling its main competitor four-to-one.
The timing could not be worse for Airbus, whose five-year reign as the world's leading commercial jet builder looks likely to end after slow sales of its delayed A380 superjumbo and indecision over its mid-sized A350.

"Boeing's spent the last few Farnborough and Paris airshows getting away from the whole orders game, but this time the rumor is that they are back," said Richard Aboulafia, an analyst at aerospace consultants, Teal Group.

http://today.reuters.com/investing/f...003_RTRIDST_0_TRANSPORT-BOEING.XML



"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineManni From South Korea, joined Nov 2001, 4221 posts, RR: 22
Reply 5, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 9545 times:

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 10):

On the other hand, here's an article (Reuters) that says Boeing will have a few surprises at the show:

Indeed, what a contradiction. So much for these so called 'knowledgeble people', calling themselfes 'analysts.

With more than a 100 unidentified orders, including 20 777's and a 748i, it isn't difficult to predict the announcement of 'a few surprises', at the highdays of the aviation sector for the whole of 2006, isn't it?



SUPPORT THE LEBANESE CIVILIANS
User currently offline787engineer From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 572 posts, RR: 15
Reply 6, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 9448 times:

Quoting MBJ2000 (Reply 2):
Did you read that?
"The A380 superjumbo..."
Some people here in the forum should finally acknowledge that term...

Boeing plans superjumbo to battle Airbus
http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/11/15/business/boeing.php

I guess the 747-8 is a superjumbo too!  Yeah sure. Note that in most cases "superjumbo" is lower case which means it isn't directly linked (as part of a proper noun) to the A380 in particular. The "JumboJet" however is usually upper case because the 747 has clearly been "the JumboJet" for decades. Please can we get off this petty stuff that the A380 IS the SuperJumbo. Just because it is mentioned here doesn't mean it's fact. Superjumbo now simply refers to any giant plane bigger than the JumboJet.


User currently offlineOkelleynyc From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 219 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 9347 times:

Quoting Leelaw (Thread starter):
James Wallace's pre-Farnborough rundown is a good read; hopefully, it sparks some good discussion. If "humility" is the watchword this year, perhaps John Leahy's role at Farnborough will be muted, he doesn't seem to do "humble" well?

Hey LeeLaw, I suspect that Boeing will be minding their Ps and Qs next week and won't use the opportunity to cast dispersions on Airbus. As far as Airbus? I imagine Leahy's aware of the scrutiny placed on him and will perform well. Hopefully they will have some good news to share.

As for the whole WhaleJet/SuperJumbo distraction, will the A380 lovers please tell us what name they want us to use and we (at least me) will happily comply. SupremeLiner? BigDaddy? King Kamehamea? The One? You choose. I really don't mind.

It's such an non-issue for me, but do want to be sensitive since it clearly is worrisome to many.

Just for the record, I have always have called it by its given name the "A380".



Just give me my Vario, my Ozone Mojo and a gorgeous day of soaring.
User currently offlineRedFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4376 posts, RR: 28
Reply 8, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 9275 times:

Quoting Okelleynyc (Reply 7):
I imagine Leahy's aware of the scrutiny placed on him and will perform well.

You mean he will be his usual big mouth?

I imagine Leahy will continue to make outlandish statements. It's his style. Besides, psychologically, the more outrageous the statement the more some people will believe it assuming if it's so unbelievable then there must be some truth to it.

Anyone remember last year's famous words..."If production slots for the 380 weren't booked solid for the next few years I could sell another 30 right now."



My other home is a Piper Cherokee 180C
User currently offlineOkelleynyc From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 219 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 9222 times:

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 8):
You mean he will be his usual big mouth?

 optimist  You may be right RedFlyer. I was only speculating since he has shown a few moments of lucidity recently.

Quote:
"The facts speak for themselves. This is a major screwup. It's an embarrassment, the worst I can remember in 22 years" with the company. - Leahy

But time will tell....



Just give me my Vario, my Ozone Mojo and a gorgeous day of soaring.
User currently offlineManni From South Korea, joined Nov 2001, 4221 posts, RR: 22
Reply 10, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 9108 times:

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 8):
Anyone remember last year's famous words..."If production slots for the 380 weren't booked solid for the next few years I could sell another 30 right now."

Certainly, I do remember these words. Tell me, do you have any prove of the contrary? In comparison to when he made that statement, production slots have become even more scares in the next 4 years.

Deliveries have been postponed again, and despite all the moaning, airlines have put up with this additional delay, commenting it's a 'superb' aircraft.

Remember Tony Tyler of CX, expressing his hope that a certain Middle Eastern Airline would not take delivery of all the A380's it ordered? So, if the need arises he could snap up a few of those, rather than waiting for the next available production slots.



SUPPORT THE LEBANESE CIVILIANS
User currently offlineRedFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4376 posts, RR: 28
Reply 11, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 8940 times:

Quoting Manni (Reply 10):
Tell me, do you have any prove of the contrary?

Sure I do. The A380 hasn't sold a single copy in over a year. Logic would dictate that if there's pent-up demand for a one-of-a-kind model then airlines would order some to ensure they get the first available slot. Airlines also buy and sell production slots when demand outstrips availability. To my knowledge, I don't believe any airlines have sold or bought 380 production slots.

Quoting Manni (Reply 10):
airlines have put up with this additional delay,

First of all, it's been barely a month since the additional delays were announced. Second, when it's a one-of-a-kind product, you really have no choice but to put up with the delay. Nevertheless, let's see where the existing 16 customers are in another month or two. Better yet, let's wait and see where the existing 16 customers are once the 380 takes flight in revenue service.

Quoting Manni (Reply 10):
Remember Tony Tyler of CX, expressing his hope that a certain Middle Eastern Airline would not take delivery of all the A380's it ordered?

Um, no, I don't remember when Tony Tyler expressed such hope. When exactly was that? Was it recently?

Quoting Manni (Reply 10):
So, if the need arises he could snap up a few of those, rather than waiting for the next available production slots.

Why doesn't he just buy some slots from that "certain Middle Eastern airline"? Given the low price that "certain Middle Eastern airline" paid for the A380 as one of its launch customers, not to mention the financial compensation they have no doubt received for the incessant delays, they could sell a couple of production slots really cheap and still make a hefty profit. With 43 copies on order, I'm sure that "certain Middle Eastern airline" could relinquish a couple of slots without too much pain, especially since deliveries are spread out over the next decade.



My other home is a Piper Cherokee 180C
User currently offlineBoeingFever777 From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 409 posts, RR: 53
Reply 12, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 8905 times:

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 4):
On the other hand, here's an article (Reuters) that says Boeing will have a few surprises at the show:

I also have read that in several publications and articles... Only time will tell.



Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre.
User currently offlineDAYflyer From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 3807 posts, RR: 3
Reply 13, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 8716 times:

Here is an interesting link. This one talks about how Boeing is poised to stick it to Airbus with large orders at thsi years airshow:

http://today.reuters.com/news/newsar...003_RTRIDST_0_TRANSPORT-BOEING.XML

Exerpt:

NEW YORK, July 13 (Reuters) - Boeing Co. (BA.N: Quote, Profile, Research) could twist the knife into struggling European rival Airbus next week.

The U.S. planemaker is set to dominate Britain's Farnborough air show with a stream of new orders for its 787 Dreamliner and other jets, which are already outselling its main competitor four-to-one.

The timing could not be worse for Airbus, whose five-year reign as the world's leading commercial jet builder looks likely to end after slow sales of its delayed A380 superjumbo and indecision over its mid-sized A350.


This is a 3 page article with some nice little tidbits.



One Nation Under God
User currently offlineBoeingFever777 From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 409 posts, RR: 53
Reply 14, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 8454 times:

How badly is the A380 program hurting Airbus right now is what I want to know? I know the A350/370 is under fire now as well... How long will it take Airbus to recover and get back to the days of glory and winning/competing in major orders?

Hope its not all a lose for them at Farnborough.



Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre.
User currently offlinePavlin From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 8426 times:

Quoting MBJ2000 (Reply 2):
Did you read that?
"The A380 superjumbo..."
Some people here in the forum should finally acknowledge that term... Wink

It is sure time to acknowledge SuperJumbo and dumb that stupid W....jet

Quoting 787engineer (Reply 6):

I guess the 747-8 is a superjumbo too! Yeah sure. Note that in most cases "superjumbo" is lower case which means it isn't directly linked (as part of a proper noun) to the A380 in particular. The "JumboJet" however is usually upper case because the 747 has clearly been "the JumboJet" for

747 will be jumbojet forever no questions asked


User currently offlineJMBWEEBOY From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 266 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 8048 times:

Short and sweet, as a fellow American, I'm pretty embarassed by the cavalier attitude of our American Boeing friends regarding Airbus's current woes.

Its just a matter of time. You've heard the phrase, "What goes around comes around." That works both ways!

JMBWEEBOY


User currently offline777STL From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 3746 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 8020 times:

Quoting Pavlin (Reply 15):
It is sure time to acknowledge SuperJumbo and dumb that stupid W....jet

"Superjumbo", capitalized or not, isn't indicative of anything. It's an adjective the author of that column used to describe the 380.

The aircraft industry is largely cyclical and prone to "spurts". Airbus will be fine in a few years.



PHX based
User currently offlineBoomBoom From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 8020 times:

And here's an article from the Everett Herald with ample quotes from the 'Great Satan' Richard Aboulafia:

Quote:
There's only a 5 percent chance Airbus will come out on top at Farnborough, Aboulafia said, while there's about a 45 percent chance Boeing will seriously wound Airbus next week.

Maybe A350 customer Qatar Airways will bolt to Boeing and buy 787s. Maybe Emirates will finally snub Airbus and place a 50- to 100-jet order that would include the first 787-10s. And maybe someone will step up and order the first 747-8 passenger jets.

All those would be "major kicks" to Airbus, he said.

http://www.heraldnet.com/stories/06/07/12/100bus_corliss001.cfm


User currently offlineWINGS From Portugal, joined May 2005, 2831 posts, RR: 68
Reply 19, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 7918 times:

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 18):
And here's an article from the Everett Herald with ample quotes from the 'Great Satan' Richard Aboulafia:

Quote:
There's only a 5 percent chance Airbus will come out on top at Farnborough, Aboulafia said, while there's about a 45 percent chance Boeing will seriously wound Airbus next week.

Maybe A350 customer Qatar Airways will bolt to Boeing and buy 787s. Maybe Emirates will finally snub Airbus and place a 50- to 100-jet order that would include the first 787-10s. And maybe someone will step up and order the first 747-8 passenger jets.

All those would be "major kicks" to Airbus, he said.

http://www.heraldnet.com/stories/06/07/12/100bus_corliss001.cfm

After reading this remark from the good old Aboulafia, I am more than eager to see if he will in fact be eating his words. How biased can this man actually be.

How can this man be considered as a professional analyst with such biased remarks.

Regards,
Wings



Aviation Is A Passion.
User currently offlineKatekebo From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 704 posts, RR: 6
Reply 20, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 7866 times:

Airbus will NOT be humble at Farnborough for many reasons. They don't have to. Although their sales may not be too strong in the first six months of the year, they have enough success stories in hand to exploit and make them look as the leader. For one thing, their backlog is still bigger than Boeing, so they can claim that their competition is "just catching up", but not leading. Also, their deliveries are still higher than Boeing. Second, they will exploit A32x success, including re-announcing the A320E. Although in practical terms the sales of A32x and B737 over the last three years are nearly identical, they will exploit the fact that they sold a record number last year and can say that the category market leader will get even better, increasing the gap vs. the "inferior" Boeing product. Third they will exploit to the maximum the technical progress of A380 fly test program. It may be late, but they will still present it as "the gratest thing under the Sun". Last, they for sure keep a healthy number of orders that will be announced at the show. It is almost certain that they will move earth, sea and mountains to beat Boeing in terms of total number of orders at Farnborough, even if it implies turning a trick like last year's China orders.

Humility is not part of European character and Airbus will certainly not give us an example of being humble in front of the competition.


User currently offlineBoomBoom From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 7762 times:

Quoting Katekebo (Reply 20):
lthough in practical terms the sales of A32x and B737 over the last three years are nearly identical, they will exploit the fact that they sold a record number last year and can say that the category market leader will get even better, increasing the gap vs. the "inferior" Boeing product. Third they will exploit to the maximum the technical progress of A380 fly test program. It may be late, but they will still present it as "the gratest thing under the Sun". Last, they for sure keep a healthy number of orders that will be announced at the show. It is almost certain that they will move earth, sea and mountains to beat Boeing in terms of total number of orders at Farnborough, even if it implies turning a trick like last year's China orders.

Problem is, who will believe all this bull****? The airlines? Industry analysts? No, only a few die hard Airbus fans on a.net.

And as you say, they'll have to resort to "tricks" like last year's China orders.


User currently offlineHighFlyer9790 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 1241 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 7611 times:

Quoting MBJ2000 (Reply 2):
Did you read that?
"The A380 superjumbo..."
Some people here in the forum should finally acknowledge that term...

never, ever, ever, in my life will i aknowledge the A380 as a superj****. the 747 will always be the queen of the skies and no incompetent news source can take that away.

as far as annoucements at the airshow, i hope Boeing will be prosperous.



121
User currently offlineLeelaw From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 7587 times:

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 11):
Airlines also buy and sell production slots when demand outstrips availability.

Purchase contracts generally provide that customers cannot transfer/assign production slots to third-parties without the permission of the OEM. As a general matter, OEM's will withhold such consent as they prefer to profit themselves when they've got a hot product on their hands. Knowledgeable people in the industry knew that Mr. Leahy's boast last year that he could sell thirty more A380's immediately but for the lack of production/delivery slots was likely a canard, just not for the reason you've cited. Allegedly, holding slots open for option holders was the fly in Mr. Leahy's ointment. However, in modern practice option holders rarely have an absolute right to production/delivery slots in the face of competing firm orders for the slots in question, but rather a right of first refusal. Either the option holder firms its order in response to a bonafide alternative offer to secure the slot, or it declines to act and accepts a later slot.


User currently offlineBCBHokie From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 121 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 7505 times:

Quoting WINGS (Reply 19):
How biased can this man actually be.

How can this man be considered as a professional analyst with such biased remarks.

I normally don't post snippy corrections here, but really. How hard is it to post questions that end in a question mark.

How hard is it to realize that it's an analysts job to make biased remarks, because the analysts' customers pay them to have an opinion. How hard is it to understand the difference between an analyst and a news source, and respect the value of both.

Sigh.

Ben

[Edited 2006-07-13 21:14:20]

25 YULWinterSkies : I think the balance between A fans and B fans among a.netters is even more leaning towards B than it is in the real world in which concerns A orders
26 BoomBoom : And your point is? If Boeing used a cheap trick like last year's A320 China orders, you wouldn't find me cheering about it. I'd be embarrassed.
27 Floridaflyboy : I'm guessing that Airbus will be a little shorter than usual on widebody orders at Farnorough, but the A320 family is still a very competitivie aircra
28 Breiz : The A380 hasn't got an official name. Airbus decided against giving one. So all journalists and e-netters can choose the nickname they like. It will
29 YULWinterSkies : Maybe you are not the die hard B fan as I previously thought! This is what my new point is.
30 BoomBoom : I'am a die hard Boeing fan. I've never pretend to be anything else. It's just that I won't take negatives about Boeing and try to spin them into posi
31 Post contains images MBJ2000 : So what? calm down dude! I'm afraid you and a couple of other lonely knights around here behave like Don Quijote against the windmills. 99.9% percent
32 HZ747300 : Come off it - seriously, when someone brags about how great they are and then starts to unravel, they deserve to be ridiculed. Absolutely - and Airbu
33 BigB : Some of you guys should have been in here around 2002-2004 when Airbus was on top of its game, This website had a lot more A-fans. I think once Airbus
34 Kanebear : Oh, I don't know, if you go back and look at his blog in 2000/1/2/3 you wouldn't think he's so biased. He rips on Boeing as warranted.
35 Post contains images RAPCON : ...speaking for myself, the best news that I would love to get from EADS at Farnborough is that the A340 line will be expedited so as to close it as s
36 N844AA : This is seriously one of the most sensible posts I've ever seen on this site. Well said.
37 Post contains images Maersk737 : Back to basics Why does any manufacturer have to be humble at an Airshow ? Full speed ahead, please...It's showtime Cheers Peter
38 Chiad : Leelaw ... my gosh. What a topic. I think some Boeing fans really got their pride hurt during Airbus' ascent. I rest my case!
39 Nudelhirsch : Excrement of a bull!!! The plane is fine, the backlog is there, and it as much a niche product as the 748. Just that the backlog is bigger... At the
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