Boeing747_600 From United States of America, joined Oct 1999, 1259 posts, RR: 0 Posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 2978 times:
Well, now that NW pulled the plug on their AMS-BLR ops, how come KL hasnt picked it up? Surely they're in better shape than NW and could generate a profit on the route.
Or does this have something to do with th lack of India/Netherlands bilaterals?
BlrBird From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 577 posts, RR: 0 Reply 1, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 2969 times:
Zilch!
Netherlands carriers do not have bilateral right to BLR.
Unless NW can start this route, there won't be any non stop AMS-BLR route in near future.
Boeing747_600 From United States of America, joined Oct 1999, 1259 posts, RR: 0 Reply 2, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 2967 times:
Quoting BlrBird (Reply 1): Zilch!
Netherlands carriers do not have bilateral right to BLR.
Ha! Just after editing my post to ask if this was the case, Voila - your response!
Anyway I would bet $0.05 on NW starting a new service to any location on the planet.
HB-IWC From Greece, joined Sep 2000, 4416 posts, RR: 75 Reply 3, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 2898 times:
Quoting BlrBird (Reply 1): Netherlands carriers do not have bilateral right to BLR.
That and Air France will soon serve BLR daily, so unlikely that KLM would also start flying there in the first place. If KLM expands further in India, I'd expect them to beef up HYD flights, open an entirely new station or put their own metal on some BOM flights instead of using the NW codeshare, which will a rather small A332 for the upcoming winter season.
Boeing747_600 From United States of America, joined Oct 1999, 1259 posts, RR: 0 Reply 4, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 2794 times:
Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 3): That and Air France will soon serve BLR daily, so unlikely that KLM would also start flying there in the first place
AF has already been serving BLR for several months now and to the best of my knowledge, KL does not have a codeshare on that flight. DL does. So KL/NW are missing out on that market.
Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 3): or put their own metal on some BOM flights instead of using the NW codeshare
KL serve BOM with a B743. Its an early morning flight. I was forced to take it once when I missed my NW connection the night before.
HB-IWC From Greece, joined Sep 2000, 4416 posts, RR: 75 Reply 7, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 2735 times:
Quoting Boeing747_600 (Reply 4): KL serve BOM with a B743. Its an early morning flight.
KL neither operates the B743 nor do they operate their own metal into BOM. You are talking quite a couple of years ago...
Quoting Boeing747_600 (Reply 4): AF has already been serving BLR for several months now and to the best of my knowledge, KL does not have a codeshare on that flight. DL does. So KL/NW are missing out on that market.
AF and KL are the same company anyway. AF is not codesharing on KLM's AMS-HYD either. That does not necessarily mean that they do not both profit from the existence of such a service. Issues pertaining to bilateral agreements may prohibit AF or KL putting their code on each other's India flights.
Karan69 From India, joined Oct 2004, 2796 posts, RR: 19 Reply 9, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2671 times:
Quoting BlrBird (Reply 1): Zilch!
Netherlands carriers do not have bilateral right to BLR.
No mate it is not a bilateral issue, a fresh bilateral was signed just about the same time last year which upped the frequencies to 35 per week per country [need to conform the frequencies though]
I am sure it has been revised as prior to this Netherlands had only 7 allotments a week which were used up by KL to DEL, it is because of the bilateral they have upped the HYD service to DEL and will soon expand into other markets.
AI From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2005, 318 posts, RR: 0 Reply 10, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2667 times:
Quoting Boeing747_600 (Reply 4): KL serve BOM with a B743. Its an early morning flight. I was forced to take it once when I missed my NW connection the night before.
definitely not.
having to use NW on AMS - BOm sector is one of the reasons i prefer not to fly with KLM. I would definitely love it if KLM started AMS-BOM with their own metal.
AI
Behramjee From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 4476 posts, RR: 43 Reply 11, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 2641 times:
Quoting AI (Reply 10): definitely not.
having to use NW on AMS - BOm sector is one of the reasons i prefer not to fly with KLM. I would definitely love it if KLM started AMS-BOM with their own metal.
yes many ppl share your concern due to NWA flying their DC10s on that route but to your delight that will change from November when the A 333s are to be deployed by NW on the AMS-BOM-AMS sector.
HB-IWC From Greece, joined Sep 2000, 4416 posts, RR: 75 Reply 12, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 2612 times:
Quoting Behramjee (Reply 11): yes many ppl share your concern due to NWA flying their DC10s on that route but to your delight that will change from November when the A 333s are to be deployed by NW on the AMS-BOM-AMS sector.
Strangely enough, NW will actually deploy the smaller A332 on the AMS-BOM route, even over the busy year end period. Just a couple of years ago, a NW B744 would have been plying this route. But indeed, the era of NW's ratty DC10s is coming to a close.
Boeing747_600 From United States of America, joined Oct 1999, 1259 posts, RR: 0 Reply 13, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 2607 times:
Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 7): KL neither operates the B743 nor do they operate their own metal into BOM. You are talking quite a couple of years ago...
You are correct when you write operates, because at one point, KL operated 4 Boeing 747-300s. In fact KL was the launch customer for Boeing's initial SUD version of the 742 that evolved into the 743. The one I flew out of BOM on Jan 17th 2001 was named "Charles E. Kingsford-Smith" after the great Australlian aviation pioneer.
Boeing747_600 From United States of America, joined Oct 1999, 1259 posts, RR: 0 Reply 14, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 2601 times:
Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 6): What is BLR? Why isn't the acronym spelled out when you mouseover?
Bangalore, India
The airliners.net crew have some work to do! None of the Indian airports (not even the major ones') are in the "mouseover database" for want of a better phrase.
HB-IWC From Greece, joined Sep 2000, 4416 posts, RR: 75 Reply 15, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 2589 times:
Quoting Boeing747_600 (Reply 13): You are correct when you write operates, because at one point, KL operated 4 Boeing 747-300s.
That is why I said you were talking about a couple of years ago, when KLM operated its own metal into DEL (4 times weekly KL475 and KL477), BOM (KL479) and CCU (KL475, tag on to the AMS DEL flight). The early morning flight you were talking about was KL480, which left BOM around 7am.
In those days, the Indian-Dutch bilateral agreement allowed for only 7 weekly frequencies between the two countries. Also in those days, NW operated 2 daily services between AMS and India - a daily AMS-BOM, which still exists as well as a now defunct daily AMS-DEL service. KLM gave up on AMS-BOM and NW stopped AMS-DEL later as they started to each operate one daily service to DEL (KLM) and BOM (NW) respectively in 2001. At the same time, KLM dropped the once weekly CCU tag on.
It is only relatively recently that the Dutch-Indian bilateral agreement has been revised, first to 14 weekly flights for each party, allowing KLM to start operations to HYD (now 4 times weekly) and after that to an even greater number of frequencies. As such, KLM can now place its KL code on the daily NW AMS-BOM service, as well as operate 11 weekly services of its own.
I would expect KLM to add extra frequencies some time in the future, provided more longhaul equipment becomes available, either by reinforcing HYD service or by opening new stations, and I wouldn't be surprised at all to see a KLM-operated AMS-BOM service at some point in the not too distant future.
EHHO From Bulgaria, joined Dec 2005, 815 posts, RR: 8 Reply 16, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 2589 times:
Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 12): Strangely enough, NW will actually deploy the smaller A332 on the AMS-BOM route
Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 3): which will a rather small A332 for the upcoming winter season.
Strange indeed. That probably explains the steep fares and absence of discounted Y ones on AMS-BOM and AMS-DEL with KL. I have to be in BOM for a congress in late August and I booked a W fare with LX for just EUR 245 RT, which bring me to EUR 497 with taxes. Anyway I prefer an LX A332 to an NW one anytime.
Quoting Boeing747_600 (Reply 14): The airliners.net crew have some work to do! None of the Indian airports (not even the major ones') are in the "mouseover database" for want of a better phrase.
DEL seems to work actually, but BLR and BOM don't. It's strange indeed.
"Get your facts first. Then you may distort them as much as you please" -- Mark Twain
HB-IWC From Greece, joined Sep 2000, 4416 posts, RR: 75 Reply 17, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 2585 times:
Quoting EHHO (Reply 16): Strange indeed. That probably explains the steep fares and absence of discounted Y ones on AMS-BOM and AMS-DEL with KL.
AMS-BOM is currently still on the NW DC10, whereas AMS-DEL operates with a KL MD11 this summer. BOM will actually see a downgrade to an A332, as said, but DEL will get a capacity boost again when KLM redeploys the B772 for the winter season.
Boeing747_600 From United States of America, joined Oct 1999, 1259 posts, RR: 0 Reply 18, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 2567 times:
Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 17): BOM will actually see a downgrade to an A332
Going from a DC-10 to an A332 is a downgrade?!?!?!
HB-IWC From Greece, joined Sep 2000, 4416 posts, RR: 75 Reply 19, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2554 times:
Quoting Boeing747_600 (Reply 18): Going from a DC-10 to an A332 is a downgrade?!?!?!
... in the number of available seats, indeed it is. The NW DC10 seats 273 passengers, whereas the A332 seats only 243 or a decrease of about 11%, whereas the winter season covers the busiest period of the year for India-bound travel.
Many airlines actually upgrade their capacity to India during the winter months, and for a year or two not so long ago, the Government of India would allow for a restricted open-sky system during the busiest months of December until February too boost much needed capacity. Just two years ago, Northwest operated a twice daily AMS-BOM service during the winter months.
Boeing747_600 From United States of America, joined Oct 1999, 1259 posts, RR: 0 Reply 20, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 2514 times:
Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 19): The NW DC10 seats 273 passengers
Yikes!!! That would explain why I felt like John Glenn strapped in his Mercury capsule when I flew on a NW DC10 AMS BOM in 2001. The seat pitch was awful.
BOMboy From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 28 posts, RR: 0 Reply 21, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 2504 times:
Quoting EHHO (Reply 16): I would expect KLM to add extra frequencies some time in the future, provided more longhaul equipment becomes available, either by reinforcing HYD service or by opening new stations, and I wouldn't be surprised at all to see a KLM-operated AMS-BOM service at some point in the not too distant future.
Lets hope that with the NW A332 downgrade, KL fills in again sooner rather than later on the route
BlrBird From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 577 posts, RR: 0 Reply 22, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2369 times:
Quoting Karan69 (Reply 9): No mate it is not a bilateral issue,
Sorry Bro! it is still bilateral issue. Dutch carriers have rights to DEL,BOM,CCU and HYD or MAA.
KL choose HYD over MAA to start new service, that means now Dutch can only operate to DEL,BOM,CCU and HYD in India no other city. Future revised bilateral may change this.
May be AI might start this service once southern hub operations start from this city (what i dont know is, can the route work?).
Boeing747_600 From United States of America, joined Oct 1999, 1259 posts, RR: 0 Reply 23, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2340 times:
Quoting BlrBird (Reply 22): May be AI might start this service once southern hub operations start from this city (what i dont know is, can the route work?).
By "the route", if you mean BLR/MAA - AMS, then my guess would be probably not for AI, unless its part of an overall BLR/MAA-AMS-SFO/IAH type of India/US route, or unless AI and KL (or AI and NW) form a codeshare ex AMS.
At one point didn't AI and NW have a codeshare ex NRT? I remember it being something along the lines of LAX-NRT on NW and NRT-DEL on AI. Anybody else remember that? I'm fairly sure its defunct now.
Per the India/Netherlands bi-laterals, do Indian carriers have 5th Freedom rights ex AMS?
Karan69 From India, joined Oct 2004, 2796 posts, RR: 19 Reply 24, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 2272 times:
Quoting BlrBird (Reply 22): that means now Dutch can only operate to DEL,BOM,CCU and HYD in India no other city. Future revised bilateral may change this.
I am not sure i quite understand the bilateral bro......i thought when PP was on a spree of signing bilaterals with countries all over [The Netherlands being one of those] there was a mention of BLR in it for sure----but if u say its not, ill take your word for it----but what kind of a bilateral does not consider a popular south Indian station like BLR in it???
Quoting BlrBird (Reply 22): May be AI might start this service once southern hub operations start from this city (what i dont know is, can the route work?).
Nimish From India, joined Feb 2005, 3085 posts, RR: 9 Reply 25, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 2219 times:
Quoting EHHO (Reply 16):
DEL seems to work actually, but BLR and BOM don't. It's strange indeed.
I have requested for the update for over a month now Could Anyone Correct This Airline Code On A.net? (by LTU932 May 11 2006 in Site Related) , but I'm told the admins are on vacation/busy. Hopefully they'll get to it sooner rather than later.
Now, onto the Bilaterals - it's 21 pw but restricted to DEL, CCU, BOM, HYD, MAA only. No capacity caps (can operate 744s), but max of 7 frequencies per week to any point in India. And no 5th freedom via the gulf (except from CCU).
Code shares do not count against the capacity caps in the bilaterals.
So there's no chance of KL starting a BLR-AMS flight. The only possibility is for NW to take the plunge, but as a number of earlier posts have confirmed, it's not on NW's radar at the moment. That being said, there's always hope
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