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Lion Air Order 30 More Boeing 737-900ER  
User currently offlinePanAm_DC10 From Australia, joined Aug 2000, 4165 posts, RR: 90
Posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 8069 times:
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FARNBOROUGH, England, July 17 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- The Boeing Company
(NYSE: BA) and Jakarta-based Lion Air today announced that the airline
exercised its purchase rights and ordered an additional 30 737-900ERs
(Extended Range). Valued at more than $2.2 billion at list prices, deliveries
of these additional 737-900ERs are scheduled to begin in early 2010 and
continue through 2012.

The agreement was announced by Boeing Commercial Airplanes President and
CEO Alan Mulally and Lion Air President Director Rusdi Kirana at the
Farnborough Air Show. Lion Air, the launch customer for the 737-900ER,
announced its first order for 30 737-900ERs and 30 purchase rights in July
2005. These two orders combined total 60 airplanes. Deliveries of the first
order are scheduled to begin in 2007.

http://www.boeing.com

The order is the 30 booked as UFO last week

Regards, PanAm_DC10


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55 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineFlying-Tiger From Germany, joined Aug 1999, 4161 posts, RR: 36
Reply 1, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 8058 times:

Two questions:

a) Who is financing this order? And is the first order already financed?
b) Where do they actually want to fly them? AFAIK the number of B737-capable airports in Indonesia isn't exactly high, and there is still competition out.



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User currently offlineHalibut From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 8030 times:

Cool !  cool 

The 737-900ER is starting to appear to be a hit !

Halibut


User currently offlineHB-IWC From Indonesia, joined Sep 2000, 4505 posts, RR: 72
Reply 3, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 7948 times:

Anyone even slightly acquainted with Indonesian aviation should now be puzzled about how this most mediocre of airlines has been able to secure financing for 60 B737-900ER airframes, and, even more interesting, what they are planning to do with them.

As said above, the number of domestic airports in Indonesia capable of handling this aircraft is restricted, and Lion Air hasn't exactly been the biggest of successes on the international scene. The airline is currently operating all of 2 (two) international routes, between Jakarta and Singapore and Kuala Lumpur respectively. The Singapore route was such a disaster that the initial frequency of 4 daily flights was quickly dropped to just one.

On the domestic front, the market has been so saturated for quite a while now, that various airlines, inclusing Lion Air itself, have been forced to park planes. And with no improvement in the buying power of the average Indonesian on the horizon, there is no market increase to be expected.

Lion Air, meanwhile, has not been able -or willing?- to gather sufficient financing to upkeep its fleet of ageing MD80s, and several frames have been withdrawn from use and are now being cannibalized to keep the remainder of the fleet airworthy.

Given the sorry state of this company and many, many other background details, I cannot believe that Lion Air has been able to secure the necessary financing for the deal currently being signed. Nor have I any clue what they are ever planning to do with 60 of these frames, for that matter...


User currently offlinePavlin From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 7927 times:

Is this thos UFO 30 737-900ER order?

User currently offlinePanAm_DC10 From Australia, joined Aug 2000, 4165 posts, RR: 90
Reply 5, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 7927 times:
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Quoting Flying-Tiger (Reply 1):
Who is financing this order?

The same financing is in place for this order as the first tranche they placed.

Quoting Flying-Tiger (Reply 1):
And is the first order already financed?

Yes via the Export-Import Bank, which is owned by the Government of the USA, whom have guaranteed the loans. The first orders financing, in addition to financing for this order, was finalised on the 30th of September 2005.

Also of note the President of Lion Air has stated that they intend to order the B787 in the future.  Wow!

Regards, PanAm_DC10



Ask the impossible to achieve the best possible
User currently offlineDAL767400ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 7927 times:

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 3):
Given the sorry state of this company and many, many other background details, I cannot believe that Lion Air has been able to secure the necessary financing for the deal currently being signed. Nor have I any clue what they are ever planning to do with 60 of these frames, for that matter...

Agreed, but as long as they pay Boeing for the planes, I couldn't care less what they'll do with the planes  Silly .

Quoting Pavlin (Reply 4):
Is this thos UFO 30 737-900ER order?



Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Thread starter):
The order is the 30 booked as UFO last week


User currently offlineHB-IWC From Indonesia, joined Sep 2000, 4505 posts, RR: 72
Reply 7, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 7848 times:

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 5):
Also of note the President of Lion Air has stated that they intend to order the B787 in the future.

The President of Lion Air has previously announced his company's intentions for so many mega projects, after which nothing was ever heard of them again, that these kinds of statements are to be taken with quite some grains of salt. Still, one has to give this company credit for closing this huge financing deal. I just can't see it happening...


User currently offlinePanAm_DC10 From Australia, joined Aug 2000, 4165 posts, RR: 90
Reply 8, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 7771 times:
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Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 7):
The President of Lion Air has previously announced his company's intentions for so many mega projects, after which nothing was ever heard of them again, that these kinds of statements are to be taken with quite some grains of salt. Still, one has to give this company credit for closing this huge financing deal. I just can't see it happening...

HB-IWC I most definately agree with your statement and over the years have thoroughly enjoyed your knowledgeable and in depth posts on the Indonesion aviation scene, for which I thank you.

I too was of the same opinion as you and took the initial B739ER announcement with a grain of salt. But when they got Ex-Im Bank financing that gave me no choice but to sit up and take notice. However I have only seen part of their business plan which secured the financing for the 739ERs and I have to admit that the comment on the 787 has taken me by surprise. In this case I feel you are correct and that they will need to build upon their operation with the 737s before they will be in a position to order the 787.

Regards, PanAm_DC10



Ask the impossible to achieve the best possible
User currently offlineHB-IWC From Indonesia, joined Sep 2000, 4505 posts, RR: 72
Reply 9, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 7677 times:

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 8):
I too was of the same opinion as you and took the initial B739ER announcement with a grain of salt. But when they got Ex-Im Bank financing that gave me no choice but to sit up and take notice.

I believe, like you, that the 737 order seems to be a done deal. But there is no way that they will ever be able to deploy such a massive fleet using the business concept they have been using so far. I have seen no indication at all as so what kind of future operation Lion Air has in mind.

I thoroughly believe that Lion Air and its President are blinded by the success of Air Asia, and that they are planning to do what Indonesians are best at: copying others. Nobody in in this country has had an innovative idea in the past decade or so and so Lion's aim is nothing else than to become a copycat of Air Asia.

Yet to do so, the airline will have to deal with some huge stumbling blocks: Lion Air lacks the human resources, the know how, and last but most certainly not least the professionalism to set up and run an operation like Air Asia. And most of all: the market is just not there; not in Indonesia -where even the local Air Asia branch is suffering- and not in the immediate vicinity, where other, far more professional outlets, like Air Asia, Tiger and Nok Air, have firmly established themselves and are holding a strong grip on the market.

I wish them good luck, though, and I wish even better luck to the American financers of this deal. Many financing companies have previously been burnt through mega deals with Indonesian companies and quite a few of them are currently lining up with International Arbitration panels trying to get their money back.


User currently offlineNitrohelper From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 469 posts, RR: 5
Reply 10, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 7641 times:

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 7):
after which nothing was ever heard of them again

During my five years in Indoland, We were involved in many dreams that were ego driven by rich guys ,with no real numbers to finance them.
We had a saying for their meetings, another NATO "no action talk only"


User currently offlineHB-IWC From Indonesia, joined Sep 2000, 4505 posts, RR: 72
Reply 11, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 7531 times:

Quoting Nitrohelper (Reply 10):
During my five years in Indoland, We were involved in many dreams that were ego driven by rich guys ,with no real numbers to finance them.

Here are some extracts of some of the multiple grandiose projects previously announced by Lion Air and its President:

- dedicated Lion Air Terminal 3 at Jakarta's Soekarno Hatta International Airport ;

- an own airport for all of Lion Air's flights, whereby Lion Air would take the lease of the entire Jakarta Halim Perdanakusuma International Airport ;

- a plethora of international destinations, including Amsterdam, Tokyo, Paris, Sydney, Perth, Beijing and others ;

- the acquisition of B747-400s and A330s for the previously mentioned international destinations ;

- and IPO on the Indonesian and selected international stock markets (Adam Air has similar plans) ;

and many, many more, apparently to be joined today by the annoucement of a future B787 order. None of the projects above, all of whcih were announced through formal press conferences, has even been heard of again. Most of it is no more than senseless grandstanding, with no numbers to back it up.

Today, though, apart from the out of touch B787 order intention, Lion Air seems to have secured international backing for what must be the largest order in Indonesian civial aviation history. The order, although seemingly signed and sealed, has not yet been delivered, and I will only believe that it is indeed reality when I indeed see 60 B737-900ER airframes up and running with Lion Air titles on them. My guess right now is that Lion will stop taking delivery after the first ten or so frames have been received...


User currently offlineLY777 From France, joined Nov 2005, 2688 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 7531 times:

Congrats!!!the 739ER is going to be a success!!!


אמא, אני מתגעגע לך
User currently offlinePanAm_DC10 From Australia, joined Aug 2000, 4165 posts, RR: 90
Reply 13, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 7517 times:
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Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 9):
I wish them good luck, though, and I wish even better luck to the American financers of this deal. Many financing companies have previously been burnt through mega deals with Indonesian companies and quite a few of them are currently lining up with International Arbitration panels trying to get their money back.

Thank you again HB-IWC for your insight and again I fully understand and accept your opinions and most valid input. It's just that in the case of LionAir the financiers are the taxpayers of the U.S.A. as the Ex-Im Bank is owned by the Government.

Regards, PanAm_DC10



Ask the impossible to achieve the best possible
User currently offlineKanebear From United States of America, joined May 2002, 953 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 7498 times:

Which means we the US taxpayers will own these aircraft. Big grin

User currently offlineHB-IWC From Indonesia, joined Sep 2000, 4505 posts, RR: 72
Reply 15, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 7474 times:

Quoting Kanebear (Reply 14):
Which means we the US taxpayers will own these aircraft.

Good luck having them repossessed when the airline keeps flying them on domestic stretches. Lufthansa can tell you a story or two about the time they were trying to get their hands back on the two B733s they leased to yet another Indonesian debacle: Indonesian Airlines. The companies can go to local courts, which in all their xenophobic wisdom these courts will rule invariably in favor of the Indonesian party in the dispute. There is no legal certainty whatsoever in Indonesia. That's why International Arbitration Panels are loaded with cases originating in the country.


User currently offlineAMSSFO From Netherlands, joined Feb 2005, 952 posts, RR: 10
Reply 16, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 7421 times:

Quoting LY777 (Reply 12):
Congrats!!!the 739ER is going to be a success!!!

with 60 of all 63 orders up to date originating from one customer, that apparently doesn't have a very bright future? I think it's a little too early to speak of a success.


User currently offlineClickhappy From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 9636 posts, RR: 68
Reply 17, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 7390 times:
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Hmmm, seems sketchy.

I would like to see the 739ER being ordered by some established carriers!


User currently offlineKanebear From United States of America, joined May 2002, 953 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 7374 times:

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 15):
Good luck having them repossessed when the airline keeps flying them on domestic stretches.

Oh I never thought we'd be able to repossess the things... but we'll own them from start to finish. Just think of it as our little gift to Indonesian commercial aviation.


User currently offlineHB-IWC From Indonesia, joined Sep 2000, 4505 posts, RR: 72
Reply 19, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 7339 times:

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 17):
I would like to see the 739ER being ordered by some established carriers!

Well, Lion Air is most certainly established by now, albeit for all the wrong reasons. It must be the rattiest of carriers on the not all that resplendent firmament of Indonesian aviation. The airline has come to stand symbol for shabbyness and lack of reliability, yet can dispose of a phenomal PR machine which seems to be able to put a positive spin on the most horrendous of stories. After one of their MD80s came down the wrong way in Solo in December of 2004, they managed to make one of key headlines in the local newspapers to be their immediate disbursement of 5 million Indonsian Rupiahs (USD500) to the families of the victims. I can't wait to see tomorrow morning's newspaper headlines. It'll be Lion Air all over.

Quoting Kanebear (Reply 18):
Just think of it as our little gift to Indonesian commercial aviation.

How thoughtful, but the money would be far better spent feeding children currently starving in Eastern Indonesia. Stuffing Indonesian tycoons' hands with American tax payer dollars isn't exactly the epitome of humanitarian munificence.


User currently offlinePanAm_DC10 From Australia, joined Aug 2000, 4165 posts, RR: 90
Reply 20, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 7217 times:
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Quoting AMSSFO (Reply 16):
with 60 of all 63 orders

Shouldn't that be 67 as Excel Airways are taking 4 on lease from Avion via GECAS.

To add it appears Lion Air have found the money to power them too;

FARNBOROUGH -- July 17, 2006 -- Indonesian carrier Lion Air today announced that it has firmed option orders for 30 additional CFM56-7B powered Boeing 737-900ER aircraft. The engine order is valued at $360 million at list price. The airline, which placed an initial order for 30 aircraft in July 2005, will begin taking delivery of the new 737s in the first half of 2007.

Regards, PanAm_DC10



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User currently offlineUnited787 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 2716 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 7178 times:

When is the 737-900Er scheduled for its first flight, certification, and delivery? Wasn't there discussion that Alaska would be an excellent fit for this aircraft?

User currently offlineClickhappy From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 9636 posts, RR: 68
Reply 22, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 7161 times:
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Rollout will be 8August, first flight is scheduled for late August, early September.

First frame will wear the Dreamliner house colors, with a Lion Air tail.


User currently offlineRobK From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2004, 3952 posts, RR: 18
Reply 23, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 7161 times:

Like others, I'm very sceptical of this. In fact, I've said right from the start of the first order of 30 that they would never happen but as the first one is built and soon ready to make its maiden flight then it looks like it is happening! It's still to be delivered yet though and I'll only believe it when that happens and I see it in their colours and operating routes in Indoland.

I'd wager money on them not getting all 60 though. Should be interesting to watch what happens over the next few years.

R


User currently offlineAMSSFO From Netherlands, joined Feb 2005, 952 posts, RR: 10
Reply 24, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 7044 times:

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 20):
Shouldn't that be 67 as Excel Airways are taking 4 on lease from Avion via GECAS.

GECAS/Avion is not listed at the Boeing website, so likely not firm (yet). Similarly, SpiceJet is not listed as well for 5.


25 PanAm_DC10 : True though GECAS has already ordered them as 738s which are convertible into the 739ER, so it will appear as a conversion at some stage. Spicejet, y
26 Oldeuropean : This reminds me on the 787 order of Primaris. Both were the launch commitments, (Primaris for the 787 and Lion Air for the 737-900ER) for a new type a
27 Clickhappy : While I don't think Lion Air is an ideal launch customer for a new model, comparing them to Primaris is way off base.
28 Oldeuropean : I didn`t compare Lion Air with Primaris. I had and have my doubts about the seriousness of their former commitments respectively the order. Axel[Edit
29 Kanebear : The money would be far better unspent, untaxed, and remaining where it belongs with the taxpayers that earned it.
30 Lutfi : My favourite Lion Air story. After the fatal crash in Jogja, JAMSOSTEK (the local national insurance/ Social Security) said so sorry, no life insuranc
31 Mandala499 : WHAT THE? Another 30 739ERs? Airports able to handle the 739ERs are: Jakarta, Medan, Batam, Banda Aceh, Padang, Pekanbaru, Palembang, Banjarmasin, Bal
32 Socal : I think this airframe is going to be a hot buy. Cant wait to see who else orders them.
33 Lutfi : "A sinister PR plan was discovered a few months ago regarding a "type replacement"... and a few more others... However, it is unethical to disclose th
34 Mandala499 : Cardig bought into Mandala using money from Bimantara group in the hope that Indigo would join.... however, nothing's concrete at the moment. Lutfi, I
35 Post contains images Lutfi : Gotcha Sneaky, especially with lease rates on B737-3/4/500's firming up at the moment. Actually my new favourite LCC in IDO is Sriwijaya. Seems a no b
36 TL925 : Not necessarily true that the Exim Bank is the financier of the aircraft. The financiers are in fact commercial banks who extend financing to the air
37 Mandala499 : Looks like JT is financed with a 4 year grace period with 10 yrs payback thereafter or extendable to 25 yrs... at dirt cheap rates! With the aircraft
38 Lutfi : SJY also have decent maintenance on those B732's, allegedly. Yes, MLG belongs to the air force still. It is a very cute airport, very fast and simple
39 Mandala499 : SJY's maintenance is done by AeroNusantara... we call them the wizards of the 732... Their foray into maintaining MDs flunked though... but with the 7
40 HB-IWC : What infrastructure improvements? Did I miss something? Most Indonesian airports are still ratholes, to put it lightly. I really wonder how Lion is e
41 Nitrohelper : Well said .we left over three million US dollars in Indoland after the '97 collapse, and before that we had much trouble collecting payments during t
42 Mandala499 : Not disagreeing with HB-IWC here... 30 is about the limit as far as I can see it... Those 739s into JOG will be a bit problem... Solo and Banjarmasin
43 CRJ900 : Has Lion Air disclosed how many seats they will put in the B739ER, and how many classes of travel?
44 HB-IWC : Lion Air does neither have the expertise nor the professionalism to operate routes of that caliber. As said, their product is ratty and a couple of s
45 Thering : The 737-900ER would fit perfectly for the US cariers! For high demand transcon flights, Mexico, Caribian, North of South América and even short high
46 TL925 : I agree completely that the B737-900ER looks like a great aircraft which hopefully more carriers will realize soon enough. Unlike the B737-900 which w
47 Lutfi : Even SUB-HKG is a stretch. CX have 1200 seats a week on the route, and the prices for the main SUB-HKG market (which is maids) is as low as JKT. On a
48 Mandala499 : 30m USD for Mandala? LOL that was an 8m USD discount from what I was offered... We valued it at 8m - 12m USD ! LOL Mandala499
49 Mandala499 : Just to add another twist... Yesterday in BisnisIndonesia... 15 - 20% financed internally by Lion (which is still US$780 million... God knows where it
50 Flying-Tiger : Now it's getting interesting. You don't get 3/4 of a billion like this. From what you are indicating so far it looks more like a money-laundering ope
51 Mandala499 : Interesting??? Indeed !!! I strongly suspect that the downpayment haven't been made but only contracted, hence it's not yet binding but will be once t
52 Lutfi : The money laundering suspicion has been raised before, especially as Lion Air bought an office building previously owned by Eddie Tanzil... Mandala499
53 Post contains images Mandala499 : Lutfi, Swap war stories or JT theories? *Any will do*. Check your instant message. Now, there are a few financing theories to JT, but yes, their "new"
54 HB-IWC : This is yet more proof of the fact that there should be at least very serious doubt over the commitment of Lion Air to this order. I mean, the good m
55 Mandala499 : Well HB-IWC... when looking at it that way... JT is the champion with KI coming to a close second. Perhaps we should collect "JT's best quotes"... Man
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