Vega From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 8770 times:
Right now it's a "paper" airplane. It's anyone's guess who the launch customer will be 6 years from now when it's said to be available. By that time, US Airways will possibly be indisguishable from today. Parker said recently that he will stick with the 350, but that was before the 2012 date was announced. My guess is that as long as AB offers US some sort of a stop gap deal for something like additional 330-200s and/or some 340s (for East Coast-Asia, etc.), they will remain the "launch" customer.
D L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 11486 posts, RR: 52
Reply 2, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 8694 times:
I'd be surprised if the new 350 shows up in US's fleet, even in 2012. I don't think US will want anything larger than a 333 for a long time to come, unless they start planning flights from the major west coast cities other than PHX to Asia and Europe. But I don't see that happening either.
But then again, 6 years ago, US Airways had just turned from USAir, their fleet was over 400 planes, they were allied with AA (sorta), and their largest plane was a 762. A lot can change in 6 years.
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Aviator27 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 8408 times:
The US A350 deal was part of a loan package Airbus gave to US Airways to help them transition out of bankruptcy and with their merger with America West Airlines. That is why they are so indifferent to the airplane.
Centrair From Japan, joined Jan 2005, 3598 posts, RR: 20
Reply 5, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 8370 times:
Quoting Scbriml (Reply 3): Isn't the A350X-800 very comparable in capacity to the A333?
A350 XWB-800 = 270 pax in three classes,
A350 XWB-900 = 314 pax in three classes
A350 XWB-1000 = 350 pax in three classes
Range of 8500nm. (basic model)
A330-300 = 335 pax in two classes
A330-300 = 295 pax in three classes
Range of 5650nm
A330-200 = 253 pax in three classes
A330-200 = 293 pax in two classes
Range of 6400nm
Answer: The A350 XWB-800 carries 25 passengers less than the A330-300 but flies 2850nm more. For US the A350-800 would allow them to do PHX-Europe and PHI-Asia. But could also be abused for the East Coast - Europe market...after all some fly 777-200ER East Coast to Europe and it has a range of 7730nm.
Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
John From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 1374 posts, RR: 5
Reply 6, posted (8 years 4 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 8091 times:
There are still 10 A330-200 orders on the books. Look for that order to be moved up....I highly doubt US would pick up any A340s, even as an interim aircraft. I do however believe that more 757-ER will be acquired, along with the possibility of a few used 767-300s. This all depends of course on future international expansion plans. With the price of fuel continuing to skyrocket and tensions now escalating further in the Middle East and North Korea...we'll just have to wait and see.
Or even better the 787! (Just jabbing ya) They didn't order full out though, it was part of BK exit financing. Once they pay Airbus back, they actually can cancel their order. Something tells me that they might actually do that. There have been statements from airbus that they may have some cancelations. I think US is one of them. Though I think the US colors on the A350 will look awsome and on approach to NGO they would look even better.
Quoting D L X (Reply 7): US Airways fits its 333s with 266 seats in 3 classes.
That is even better. Only 4 seat difference based on Airbus' numbers.
Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
Manni From South Korea, joined Nov 2001, 4221 posts, RR: 22
Reply 11, posted (8 years 4 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 7807 times:
Quoting Centrair (Reply 9): They didn't order full out though, it was part of BK exit financing. Once they pay Airbus back, they actually can cancel their order.
1) US Airways being in chapter 11 is saved by Airbus providing exit financing (in the form of a loan), in return US Airways promises to buy aircraft from Airbus.
2) US Airways leaves chapter 11 (thanks to Airbus exit financing?) and starts to become profitable again, it can now pay back the loan.
3) A. US keeps their promise and orders the aircraft (whenever they are in need of the aircraft).
3) B. US tells Airbus to get lost and buys aircraft from the competition.
I have no clue what the agreement is between A and US, but it does look like US current better situation is (partially) because of Airbus exit financing. If anything, US should be greatfull and return the favor to Airbus. Dont slap the hand that feeds you, who knows it might need to feed you again some day...
WorldXplorer From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 381 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (8 years 4 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 7643 times:
Quoting Manni (Reply 11): Dont slap the hand that feeds you, who knows it might need to feed you again some day...
I agree with that statement Manni. I think that is exactly the scenario here.
Let's take a look at some numbers. The US A330 have an average age of 5.9 years. In 2012, when the A350 enters into service that be roughly 12 years or even less if they do take delivery of any A330's in the meantime. If we use history as a guide, US has an average age of 17 years for their fleet of 767's. So that shows us that they are not of the philosophy of turning over their fleet in an SQ type manner. So although US may be planning to replace their A330's with A350's, I doubt it. So all of this info begs the question, does US see that much expansion possible from the merger with HP? They must, or at least their hoping.
If we put ourselves in the shoes of US we can see they had no other choice but to buy the A350 IF they are adopting the "Dont slap the hand that feeds you" philosophy. Take a look at A's product catalog from US Airways perspective and see what they had to choose from:
- A300/A310 - yesterdays news
- A320 Family - The us legacies are having an epiphany that international routes are where the money is. The int'l destinations that the A32X can serve for US are currently fairly well covered. And let us not forget that US still has A320's and A321's on order.
- A330 - The A350 was already being touted as the next big thing and US has 10 on order still. Why order more of these?
- A340 - Without already being the US fleet and the A350 on the horizon, it would have made no sense for US to pick up any A340's.
- A380 - I do not think anyone here thinks US has routes that necessitate the A380.
- A350 - This is the only logical choice for US from the Airbus product catalog.
Airbus does them favor. US reciprocates by buying Airbus jets. The best bet for US was and still is the A350. Whether or not they can expand enough to fill those birds has yet to be seen, but it will be an interesting situation to watch.
Flyboyaz From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (8 years 4 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 7634 times:
Quoting DrupyUSE (Reply 13): We actually operate in a two class configuration (Envoy & Coach)on the A333. Not sure where you got your three class facts.?
Yes that's how it's marketed, since we no longer sell the First Class seats in the front of the cabin as First Class. They just included them in the new upgrade program...as lay-flat seats for a premium.
Quoting Centrair (Reply 9): Or even better the 787! (Just jabbing ya) They didn't order full out though, it was part of BK exit financing. Once they pay Airbus back, they actually can cancel their order. Something tells me that they might actually do that. There have been statements from airbus that they may have some cancelations. I think US is one of them. Though I think the US colors on the A350 will look awsome and on approach to NGO they would look even better.
Quoting Manni (Reply 11): US should be greatfull and return the favor to Airbus. Dont slap the hand that feeds you, who knows it might need to feed you again some day...
Manni said it right and there is nothing much to add.
Indeed US can be thankful to Airbus that they were giving them a loan.
Of course you have to consider it was a self-serving deal for Airbus and they had no real choice but doing so. If US would have gone bankrupt there would have been plenty of used A319, A320 and A321 as well as some A330 around that would have ruined the market price for Airbus. They also have now a loyal customer in the US that buys their products - which is an important factor if you know that two other major carriers have a "gentleman agreement" with Boeing as their house-supplier.
I really can not agree with you here. This has nothing to do that I am pro-Airbus or Anti Boeing which I am definitely not, if you read my posts here you know that I am one of the guys who hope for a big Boeing order from Lufthansa. It has to do with variety on our airports. I am not a spotter but when I am at the airport and I have seen the twentieth A32x family aircraft landing I am happy for every 737 I see and the other way around. Okay the A350 and 787 are very identical looking but seeing another aircraft once in a while would be good thing. Only Boeings or Airbuses would be boring airports.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
US should accelerate the delivery of the 10 332s on order and completely redo the 762 interiors. US would also be wise to see what the 350 has become, then decide between it and the 787 for long range fleet planning. The 332s, 333s and 762s will suffice for the next few years.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened - Dr. Seuss
Atmx2000 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4576 posts, RR: 37
Reply 19, posted (8 years 4 months 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 7290 times:
Quoting Columba (Reply 16): They also have now a loyal customer in the US that buys their products - which is an important factor if you know that two other major carriers have a "gentleman agreement" with Boeing as their house-supplier.
Of course US had signed a deal with Airbus prior to Boeing's signing deals with DL and AA.
ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
Dutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 20, posted (8 years 4 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 7233 times:
Quoting Manni (Reply 11): If anything, US should be greatfull and return the favor to Airbus. Dont slap the hand that feeds you, who knows it might need to feed you again some day...
Airbus made the loan to protect its interests as well......aside from helping out US, Airbus wanted to be very sure that all of those A32X airplanes operated by both US and HP would stay in the air and not end up parked in the desert. If US would have failed, all of those nearly new A32X airplanes would have ended up in the second hand market and essentially killed A32X demand in the coming years. There are two sides to every story....the loan was not a favor and no one needs to be grateful, Airbus and US are not friends, they do business together.
As for the A350 order, US/HP will take their time and determine whether the new-new A350 makes sense for them in the coming years. The A350 was always considered a growth airplane (say routes from PHX to Europe or PHL to Asia) and US/HP must re-examine what is on offer and decide if its the airplane that they want or need. Only then will we hear a decision.
Dutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 23, posted (8 years 4 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 7053 times:
Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 22): but I seriously doubt that US would be one of them. They are happy with the A-330 and will wait for the new bird.
US is happy with their A333s and will also be happy with their to-be-delivered A332s.......but they very well could be one of the customers that will back out of their commitment to the A350; US/HP management has already said that they will review their commitment to the A350 only after its clear what Airbus has on offer. US many not need or want the wide-sized A350 since its a bigger airplane: the A350s were all about expansion and new routes (as mentioned above). When it comes to US, I dont think that they delay is a big deal, its the airplane itself.....US now must re-determine if the wide A350 is the right airplane for their network, if it is, the order will go forward, if its not, there will be a cancellation. And I dont think that the fully repaid loan is going to influence US/HP's decision on the matter.