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DL Seeks MCO/SLC-MEX; NK Gives Up On FLL-MEX  
User currently offlinePVD757 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3418 posts, RR: 16
Posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 5445 times:

here is the DL letter:

http://dmses.dot.gov/docimages/p86/405614.pdf

here is NK throwing in the towel on the long talked about FLL-MEX route:

http://dmses.dot.gov/docimages/pdf97/405523_web.pdf

46 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDAL767400ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 5419 times:

Well, an application for SLC-MEX has long been overdue, however I am somewhat surprised by their application for MCO-MEX. We'll see how well that could work out. No other carriers applying, so should only be a matter of time till the DOT gives them those routes.

User currently offlineMSYtristar From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 5419 times:

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 1):
We'll see how well that could work out

DL used to fly this route with a daily 757 back in the day. I'd say a 738 this time around.


User currently offlineSLCUT2777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 4126 posts, RR: 9
Reply 3, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 5334 times:

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 1):
Well, an application for SLC-MEX has long been overdue,

Not the least bit surprised by this one since it has as pointed out long been anticipated. DL at SLC has flights to Puerto Vallarta, Cabo San Lucas, Manzallio, Mazatlan as well as Cancun all of the major resort areas popular with folks in the western USA/Canada, whereas MEX is more of a business and family to family type of destination. Question is, can this type of a flight work from SLC?



DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
User currently offlineTinPusher007 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 982 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 5206 times:

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 3):
Not the least bit surprised by this one since it has as pointed out long been anticipated. DL at SLC has flights to Puerto Vallarta, Cabo San Lucas, Manzallio, Mazatlan as well as Cancun all of the major resort areas popular with folks in the western USA/Canada, whereas MEX is more of a business and family to family type of destination. Question is, can this type of a flight work from SLC?

Being a DL hub, I wouldn't think there would be any problems making this work. Im more surprised that they couldn't make LAX-MEX work and are now applying for MCO-MEX.



"Flying isn't inherently dangerous...but very unforgiving of carelessness, incapacity or neglect."
User currently offlineAnthsaun From Mexico, joined Apr 2004, 544 posts, RR: 3
Reply 5, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 5183 times:

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 3):
MEX is more of a business and family to family type of destination. Question is, can this type of a flight work from SLC?

Indeed, it will work. AM was doing the route, but the lack of aircrafts made it drop it. Another strong issue to drop it was because the only time AM could fly it the arrival time at SLC was too late for the immigration officers.

Do you happen to know how many Mexicans live in the Salt Lake City valley? Tons of them!!!

Besides that, I do MEX-SLC-MEX twice a year. And several of my friends go at least once a year. There are over 100,000 mormons in Mexico City and over a million mormons in the country.



Over 80 years in business say a lot about success
User currently offlineRCS763AV From Colombia, joined Jun 2004, 4395 posts, RR: 12
Reply 6, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 5154 times:

Two airlines have given up on FLL-MEX, i wonder if a carrier with lower costs could do it, i mean if BOG-FLL is highly succesful and CCS-FLL was too, why cant the flight work from a city 3 times the size and 5 times richer?

User currently offlineGarri767 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 5145 times:

maybe a stopover in AMA on the way! i can see SLC-AMA-MEX. AND we have customs offices!  Wink)

(jk, we do have customs offices but a route like that would NEVER happen Big grin)


in all seriousness, i was hoping NK would get the route, but easy come easy go!


Garri767


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33195 posts, RR: 71
Reply 8, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 5105 times:

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 6):
Two airlines have given up on FLL-MEX, i wonder if a carrier with lower costs could do it, i mean if BOG-FLL is highly succesful and CCS-FLL was too, why cant the flight work from a city 3 times the size and 5 times richer?

There is no larger Mexican community in Florida. Miami is Mexico City's single largest O&D market in the US (yes, larger than LAX, because LAX' Mexico traffic is heavily disperssed throughout the country), but it is because it is such a huge business route. FLL has always had trouble luring business passengers.
'



a.
User currently offlineLaxintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26026 posts, RR: 50
Reply 9, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 5096 times:

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 1):
MCO-MEX.

MCO-MEX has been flown on/off going back to Pan Am, United and Delta.

I find it interesting they are going for the route now after the MCO operation has been scaled back. Would have taught the route would have a better chance during the times MCO was hub for DL.

Quoting TinPusher007 (Reply 4):
Im more surprised that they couldn't make LAX-MEX work

Yes I agree with you on that one. Opened the door wide open for Alaska whom is running it twice daily with good results from what I hear.

The only remaining non-beach LA-Mexico destination is Guadalajara with a single daily flight. A weak presence going against 12 daily flights run by Mexicana, AeroMexico and Alaska.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineDeltaSFO From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 2488 posts, RR: 22
Reply 10, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 5068 times:

Quoting TinPusher007 (Reply 4):
Im more surprised that they couldn't make LAX-MEX work and are now applying for MCO-MEX.

LAX-MEX made money until the very last day Delta flew it. I understand they made a gentleman's agreement with AM, swapping LAX-MEX for ATL-MEX.

But I agree that dropping LAX-MEX was a mistake, especially now that Delta has apparently decided to build up LAX. Another old Western route bites the dust.



It's a new day. Every moment matters. Now, more than ever.
User currently offlineBigGSFO From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2940 posts, RR: 6
Reply 11, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 5043 times:

Mexico City isn't always a guaranteed success. TWA had problems filling STL-MEX and MSY-MEX. I am a little skeptical of SLC-MEX, but more power to DL if they can make it work.

User currently offlineSLCUT2777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 4126 posts, RR: 9
Reply 12, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 5004 times:

Quoting Anthsaun (Reply 5):
Do you happen to know how many Mexicans live in the Salt Lake City valley? Tons of them!!!

Besides that, I do MEX-SLC-MEX twice a year. And several of my friends go at least once a year. There are over 100,000 mormons in Mexico City and over a million mormons in the country.

There is little doubt that the size of the LDS Faith in Mexico has contributed to a large Hispanic population in Salt Lake City. Yes, the LDS Faith is probably #2 in Mexico now behind the Roman Catholics. Mexico is likewise #2 behind the USA for LDS Church membership numbers. But many of these people are here working temporary/day laborer type jobs, can they afford such air-fare? Many also come here undocumented, won't they be afraid to deal with the Customs & Border Protection Officers in the E gates upon returning?
It sounds as if you work in a lay/leadership role for the LDS Faith in Mexico (Bishop or Stake President coming here twice a year for Conference in April & October). In your estimation does the LDS Church send down some official on a daily basis? What I think I'm trying to say and what BigGSFO above is trying to say, is there realistically enough business going on between Mexico City and Salt Lake City O&D (granted, a sizable chunk of this can come from Delta's massive feed into SLC from the hub) wise to justify this?



DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
User currently offlineGhost77 From Mexico, joined Mar 2000, 5226 posts, RR: 51
Reply 13, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 4966 times:

Quoting DeltaSFO (Reply 10):
LAX-MEX made money until the very last day Delta flew it. I understand they made a gentleman's agreement with AM, swapping LAX-MEX for ATL-MEX.

More than a gentleman's agreement, DL was loosing pax at LAX, during high season, route was making money but competition with MX/AM/JR/AS was tough!!! DL is now focusing on ATL-Mexico runs by opening thousands of new routes!!! Before that, AM was connecting a lot of pax thru MEX, which make DL restructure its bussiness plan to Mexico. DL decides to invade Mexico and AM simply lost the reason to fly to ATL. As for a SLC-MEX application, AM dropped the route because of their aircraft shortage and they had POOR schedule times, as route was doing ok.

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 11):
Mexico City isn't always a guaranteed success. TWA had problems filling STL-MEX and MSY-MEX. I am a little skeptical of SLC-MEX, but more power to DL if they can make it work.

Hmm this is weird! AFAIK, STL-MEX last flown with MD80s was a good route they even upgrade to daily B757-200s, then TW started to have problems and they started cutting routes but I think the route could work!!! MX might probably open it... as well as MSY... MSY was served by TW and MX for several continous years!!! Expect MX opening the route... they are going for 06 new airports in the US from July06-07.

ghooost77 APM



Ricardo Morales - flyAPM - ¡No es que maneje rapido, solo estoy volando lento!
User currently offlineBigGSFO From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2940 posts, RR: 6
Reply 14, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 4956 times:

STL-MEX was always with a MD80 IIRC. Also MSY-MEX had a tag to JFK and that flight was pulled before STL-MEX was. I also think at one point they added an intermediate stop between STL and MEX somewhere in Texas, although I could be wrong.

User currently offlineDeltaSFO From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 2488 posts, RR: 22
Reply 15, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 4898 times:

Quoting Ghost77 (Reply 13):
More than a gentleman's agreement, DL was loosing pax at LAX, during high season, route was making money but competition with MX/AM/JR/AS was tough!!!

I'm sure DL's declining presence at LAX did affect the numbers, especially during the low season, but with a little foresight, they could have hung on to the route and would now be competing in the market with a better cost structure.

If the U.S. and Mexico can agree on liberalization of MEX route authorities, as they have with the coastal markets, I wouldn't be surprised to see DL re-enter the market. However, I don't know how likely that is. I imagine the Mexican government will want to protect MX and AM's position in the Mexico City-U.S. market.



It's a new day. Every moment matters. Now, more than ever.
User currently offlineEddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7619 posts, RR: 42
Reply 16, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 4871 times:

Quoting DeltaSFO (Reply 15):
If the U.S. and Mexico can agree on liberalization of MEX route authorities, as they have with the coastal markets, I wouldn't be surprised to see DL re-enter the market. However, I don't know how likely that is. I imagine the Mexican government will want to protect MX and AM's position in the Mexico City-U.S. market.

Well, going from 2 to 3 carriers per country per city pair is far from liberalization, but point taken.

I think SLC-MEX should work well for DL. Timing should be the aspect around which this route is built so as to allow for connecting opportunities.



Next flights: MEX-GRU (AM 77E), GRU-GIG (JJ A320), SDU-CGH (G3 73H), GRU-MEX (JJ A332).
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17786 posts, RR: 46
Reply 17, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 4814 times:

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 11):
Mexico City isn't always a guaranteed success.

MX never seems to make DEN/MEX work, even when they had the UA codeshare on the DEN end. I think it's mostly a timing issue and/or revenue management on MX's end. The average fare is high but that still doesn't make a load factor that starts with a 5 appealing. UA seems to be having a better run at it but it's only seasonal. I suspect SLC is very much the same, especially since DL and AM have fewer daily seats/departures than UA and MX at the respective airports. It could work but I'm not convinced by the prospects.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 18, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 4810 times:

Firstly, I think that the ethnic connections between two cities are overplayed here at a.net.....while ethnic VFR traffic can help a route, the VFR traffic is not the high yeild traffic that airlines need and want to make a route work and be profitable. If SLC-MEX is to work, DL needs a good amont of business passengers and higher-yeilding leisure passengers travelling in both directions; the VFR crowd will help fill seats during the holiday and summer periods when business travel decreases.

SLC-MEX should be a winner for Delta, its long overdue. SLC is well positioned as a hub to distribute passengers travelling between the Pacific Northwest & the Mountain States and Mexico City. I would think that DL could keep the airplanes filled simply with passengers who would like to avoid connecting at LAX: PDX-SLC-MEX sound better to me than PDX-LAX-MEX for example. As for MCO-MEX......as pointed out above, this route has been attempted by several airlines including DL itself in the past and for whatever reason airlines dropped service; Orlando has matured into a huge year-round destination: my guess is that with DL's new emphasis on international services, it will find success on this route this time around as well. Even if MEX-MCO is filled with primarily leisure travellers, its certainly not the $79 crowd so the yeild should be more than adquate.


User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17786 posts, RR: 46
Reply 19, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 4780 times:

AM also operated MEX/SLC twice a week from December 2001 through December 2004, and then thrice weekly through June 2005 where it was pulled down and out of the schedule by September 2005.


E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlinePVD757 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3418 posts, RR: 16
Reply 20, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 4764 times:

I'm wondering if NK will open places like SXM and/or the eastern coast of Central America instead. The FLL-MEX application has quite a history of twists and turns for them to just all of a sudden not want to do it at all...

User currently offlineDAL767400ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 4726 times:

What I find interesting is that DL is proposing daily service to MCO, but only 4x weekly service to SLC. If anything, one would expect to be just the other way around. Planes used will be 738s of course, just like around 90% of all their other Mexico routes  Silly .

User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25570 posts, RR: 86
Reply 22, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 4708 times:
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Quoting DeltaSFO (Reply 10):
I understand they made a gentleman's agreement with AM, swapping LAX-MEX for ATL-MEX.

I'm not sure what you mean. The DOT controls the authorities on a use it or lose it basis.

Delta had ATL-MEX and LAX-MEX and - in effect - they gave one away. I'm not sure what value any "gentleman's agreement" would have?

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 18):
SLC-MEX should be a winner for Delta, its long overdue.

It's interesting that United keeps DEN-MEX as seasonal (skiers?) and without the subsidy from DIA it is unlikely that Mexicana would have started that route. Frontier jumped for GDL as their first "non-resort" destination in Mexico, not MEX.

And maybe I'm wrong, but didn't one airline cancel DFW-MEX recently?

So DAL767400ER makes an interesting statement:

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 21):
DL is proposing daily service to MCO, but only 4x weekly service to SLC.

Question: Is MEX the honey pot that everyone thinks?

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineDeltaSFO From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 2488 posts, RR: 22
Reply 23, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 4685 times:

Quoting Mariner (Reply 22):
I'm not sure what you mean. The DOT controls the authorities on a use it or lose it basis.

Delta had ATL-MEX and LAX-MEX and - in effect - they gave one away. I'm not sure what value any "gentleman's agreement" would have?

Delta agreed to drop LAX-MEX, ceding all Skyteam traffic on the route to Aeromexico. AM agreed to drop ATL-MEX, ceding all Skyteam traffic on the route to DL. Previously, both carriers operated both routes.



It's a new day. Every moment matters. Now, more than ever.
User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 24, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 4670 times:

Quoting Mariner (Reply 22):
Delta had ATL-MEX and LAX-MEX and - in effect - they gave one away. I'm not sure what value any "gentleman's agreement" would have?

Excellent Point......DL simply lost the valuable LAX-MEX authority when it stopped flying LAX-MEX with its own equipment, not a wise move.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 22):
Question: Is MEX the honey pot that everyone thinks?

Another excellent question......while I was taught never to answer a question with a question: how can it not be?


25 MCOflyer : If they do MCO-MEX, im on that flt. MCOflyer
26 Mariner : I understand that part of the equation. It doesn't seem to fit in with Delta's present "route grab" from Los Angeles to Mexico, though. You have to t
27 DeltaSFO : I agree completely, which is why I think it was a huge mistake.
28 Laxintl : Its pretty obvious DL did not try hard to keep LAX-MEX. After all service operated with B757s, and could have been reduced to 738s or even down to on
29 Post contains images Mariner : For what it is worth, I think there was a massive U turn in thinking about Mexico at Delta, and it seems - stress "seems" - to date from around the t
30 MaverickM11 : I don't know how that would be possible since if DL relinquished the LAX/MEX authority it would instantly be requested by a US competitor. Before the
31 EddieDude : I did not know about MX. I knew AM did MEX-CUN-MSY (I flew it in C with my parents once and it was a great experience). I'd love to see AM go back to
32 MAH4546 : There isn't a market for such a long thin route. I never understood why they entered it in the first place.
33 WorldTraveler : While many of DL's route changes such as dropping LAX-MEX were pretty recent, the change in DL's network strategy has been nothing short of dramatic.
34 Post contains images Ghost77 : STL-MEX service was started with MD80s, during the high seasons it was upgraded to B757s and later downgraded with MD80s and then TW started having s
35 MSYtristar : MX never flew into MSY on a scheduled basis. AM started MSY flying in 1992 with a daily M80 to both CUN and MEX. They left in '00 or '01 I believe...
36 Post contains links DAL767400ER : Well, the DOT worked rather fast this time, as they have already granted both routes to Delta: http://dmses.dot.gov/docimages/pdf97/406700_web.pdf
37 Post contains links and images Mariner : It's Delta monopoly time again, folks. Delta is at it again, locking out any possibility of competition between SLC-GDL. http://dms.dot.gov/search/doc
38 Panamair : Well, it's not exactly like other carriers are knocking down the DOT's door to serve GDL from SLC!
39 DAL767400ER : That, and as the docket states, a third carrier slot will become available in late 2007.
40 Post contains images Mariner : Delta had no interest in the Mexican resorts from SLC until Frontier started SLC-CUN and Delta didn't apply for SLC-PVR until after Frontier did. The
41 Laxintl : I also wonder where the promised and awarded LAX-CZM service is?
42 Post contains images FlyPNS1 : I guess DL applying for MCO-MEX must be because of Frontier too. I guess DL flying CVG-SJD must be because of Frontier too. I guess DL flying JFK-PVR
43 Post contains images Mariner : Why? I don't think Frontier has any interest in that route. Why? I don't think that Frontier has any interest in that route - or in CVG. Why? I don't
44 Post contains images DAL767400ER : Because it's only desirable for a carrier that has a hub at one end . Delta playing games with DOT? In what way exactly? And really, if you want to c
45 Post contains images Mariner : You mean like - oh, I dunno - F9's SLC-CUN? Just for starters - one of the Delta Connection airlines applying for LAX-GDL - for which no authority wa
46 Post contains images DAL767400ER : There was a major appeal by Delta, but the DOT didn't give a f*ck, stating that they carefully examined the applications and that after all it would
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