Incitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 3777 posts, RR: 14 Posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 5375 times:
DTW seems to be the stronger hub for NW with much more international service. As for domestic hubs there is a great overlap between MSP and DTW. It seems like DTW has more business traffic as well, but I could be wrong. If NW and US merge, which hub would have the greatest chance of thriving - based on geographic position and local traffic - at the expense of the other? Which one would be the best combination with Phoenix, Philadelphia and Charlotte?
RwSEA From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 3014 posts, RR: 2 Reply 1, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 5302 times:
I think they both work just fine - MSP pulls in quite a bit of traffic from the plains states in addition to being a healthy O&D market. DTW obviously has healthy O&D plus lots of connecting opportunities.
I think in the event of a merger, PIT would be reduced to a spoke, and MEM would get cut way back.
Zsx81 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 301 posts, RR: 0 Reply 2, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 5283 times:
Did I miss something? Why is there a talk of NW/US merger so much all the sudden? Some sort of rumor floating around or are you guys just doing this so you can imagine 747s in US livery?
Braniff727 From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 686 posts, RR: 1 Reply 3, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 5265 times:
I would bet that if there was a merger the new airline would be named Northwest as they have far more name recognition outside the US, especially Asia.
I think the NW hubs would remain as is. They are way, way too dominant to cut back. When you have a monopoly, you hold on to it!
Gregarious119 From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 523 posts, RR: 0 Reply 4, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 5208 times:
I am a fan of NW, and yet the location of MSP has always baffled me as a hub. It seems to far north to be useful for the Great Plains, too far west to be useful for the Midwest, and too far east to be useful as a West Coast hub. Plus you have to overfly half of Canada to get to either ocean.
Just seems like a lot of extra flying to have a hub out between the Dakotas and Wisconsin.
On the other hand, having a combination of DTW (brand new facility, good capacity, not crowded airspace) and CLT would be a great choice - it sure would give them great positioning for most "east of the mississippi" destinations.
MalpensaSFO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 6, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 5168 times:
In the case of a merger between US/NW it would be safe to say that the end would finally come to the long suffering Pittsburgh saga. Minneapolis would take a hit, as would Ft. Lauderdale. The foucused airline would operate three primary hubs and two secondary hubs and those being.
Primary
PHL or CLT
DTW
PHX
Secondary
LAS
CLT or PHL
Focus
MEM
MSP
IND
HNL
Charlotte or Philadelphia would have a loss of importance as PHL/DTW would be two hubs and the proximity would force one of the existing East Coast hubs of PHL, CLT, DTW to be terminated. The catch 22 is that CLT is perfect for North South connections on the East Cost, while PHL has the O/D for more international feed from East to West vv. It would also be safe to say that DCA, LGA, and BOS would all see a reduction in flights. Fleet synergy would not be a problem as both airlines have common types with the A330, A319, A320, 757 products. The existing 767's, 733's, 734's, DC-9's will be phased out over the next 2-10 years respectively as more A319, A320, A330, and the A350(if and when) come into play.
One other question would be what alliance this would fall into? SkyTeam has no true West Coast Hub, and Phoenix/Las Vegas could be the golden chance they have needed. Salt Lake City is much to inconvenient and involves and enormous amount of backtracking from say SFO to LAS or PHX to LAX. Safe to say that Phoenix and Las Vegas would gain the NRT frequencies that were once twice daily MSP-NRT service. PHX/LAS would also likely gain each one daily frequency to Amsterdam that was one the 2x daily MSP-AMS service.
This is one of the more interesting rumors to dawn its head. This will shape up in a very hot topic over the next few years if any of the talk is true.
RwSEA From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 3014 posts, RR: 2 Reply 7, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 5154 times:
Quoting Zsx81 (Reply 2): Did I miss something? Why is there a talk of NW/US merger so much all the sudden? Some sort of rumor floating around or are you guys just doing this so you can imagine 747s in US livery?
Well ... US has stated that they'd like to talk to NW about merging when they come out of bankruptcy.
It actually makes a lot of sense - the fleets are very complimentary with the 319/320/757/333 as common types. US has a routemap that looks like a barbell - hubs on either side of the country with a great big gap in the middle. They have a strong European and Latin America/Caribbean operation. Meanwhile, NW is strongest in the center of the country, is a bit weaker to Europe (other than AMS), but is extremely strong in Asia. The route map is a perfect overlap.
The stickiest issues would be integrating the corporate cultures (NW's management doesn't exactly have a stellar relationship with employees). Additionally, the new airline might have to exit Star Alliance because UA and NW would virtually dominate all US-Asia traffic other than a few odd flights to NRT and China. Finally, the new airline would need to come up with a plan to phase out those pesky DC9's and reinvest in the domestic fleet.
Saab2000 From Switzerland, joined Jun 2001, 1605 posts, RR: 12 Reply 8, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 5114 times:
Quoting RwSEA (Reply 7): Finally, the new airline would need to come up with a plan to phase out those pesky DC9's and reinvest in the domestic fleet.
US Airways and I think NWA both have significant orders out for EMB-190s. That would be a good replacement aircraft for the DC-9s when the time comes in about 25 years or so that the DC-9s start to get old.
KYAir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 362 posts, RR: 3 Reply 9, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 5014 times:
Quoting RwSEA (Reply 7): They have a strong European and Latin America/Caribbean operation
I don't consider what US has to be a "strong" European operation. They do have several flights to the big cities, but nothing in comparison to DL or CO. They are increasing service with the ex-ATA 752s, but still not what I'd consider strong. They are stronger in the Caribbean, but are still beat there by AA.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened - Dr. Seuss
SESGDL From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3384 posts, RR: 11 Reply 10, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 4941 times:
As the larger O&D market as well as NW's largest O&D market and headquarters, MSP wouldn't go anywhere and neither would DTW. There's no overlap with MSP, DTW, PHL, and CLT. NW's Midwest presence combined with the large East/West presence of US would make a perfect airline. MEM would likely be consolidated, but the hubs would come out looking like this:
ERJ170 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 6626 posts, RR: 19 Reply 11, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 4919 times:
Quoting SESGDL (Reply 10): but the hubs would come out looking like this:
MSP
DTW
PHL
CLT
PHX
LAS
I don't know if I would agree.. I think it would probably look like this..
Hubs:
PHX #4
CLT #1
PHL #2
DTW #3
Focus Cities:
DCA #7
LGA #8
LAS #5
MSP #6
Thought Cities (not quite a focus on but with decent # of flights):
PIT #12
BOS #10
LAX#9
Gigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16215 posts, RR: 88 Reply 12, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 4910 times:
Quoting MalpensaSFO (Reply 6): Minneapolis would take a hit, as would Ft. Lauderdale.
Usairways85 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 3097 posts, RR: 8 Reply 13, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 4899 times:
Well, FLL is already in the process in being dropped; PDX isn't really a focus city with flts to hubs and HNL, NRT; SEA just about the same, a few non hub flts, i honestly think PIT should be dropped, LAX is just some non hub flts to Hawaii but not really a focus city.
SESGDL From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3384 posts, RR: 11 Reply 14, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 4879 times:
Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 11): I don't know if I would agree.. I think it would probably look like this..
Hubs:
PHX #4
CLT #1
PHL #2
DTW #3
Focus Cities:
DCA #7
LGA #8
LAS #5
MSP #6
Why would one of the true "fortress" hubs in America (MSP) (which also has some of the highest fares) which is also NW's hub with the largest O&D numbers become a focus city? MSP has more O&D than DTW with a lot less competition. That just doesn't make sense at all to me.
SonOfACaptain From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1747 posts, RR: 5 Reply 15, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 4859 times:
Quoting RwSEA (Reply 7): The stickiest issues would be integrating the corporate cultures (NW's management doesn't exactly have a stellar relationship with employees).
Actually, I don't see this as a the major problem. NW employee's would kill to have a different management, and Parker and co. without-a-doubt will be at the healm when the dust settles.
I liken it to the US/HP merger. Two very different cultures, with the US side losing all its trust in its management, but coming together under the new rulers. Of course, this doesn't mean the cultures haven't clashed....because they have.
RwSEA From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 3014 posts, RR: 2 Reply 16, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 4772 times:
Quoting Usairways85 (Reply 13): Well, FLL is already in the process in being dropped; PDX isn't really a focus city with flts to hubs and HNL, NRT; SEA just about the same, a few non hub flts, i honestly think PIT should be dropped, LAX is just some non hub flts to Hawaii but not really a focus city.
Why would they dump their flights from SEA-AMS or SEA-NRT? These flights are very profitable and contribute to NW's strong presence in the area. It would be foolish to dump them. If it's making money, don't mess with it. Same with HNL.
PlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4537 posts, RR: 28 Reply 17, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 4756 times:
Quoting SESGDL (Reply 14): Why would one of the true "fortress" hubs in America (MSP) (which also has some of the highest fares) which is also NW's hub with the largest O&D numbers become a focus city? MSP has more O&D than DTW with a lot less competition. That just doesn't make sense at all to me.
I'm aging, but if you were around when the Brady Bunch was on, you might remember the time when Greg was chosen to be the new "Johnny Bravo". As it turns out, he was chosen because "he fit the suit."
I guess MSP doesn't "fit the suit". In other words: the route map is prettier without it.
SESGDL From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3384 posts, RR: 11 Reply 18, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 4736 times:
Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 17): I guess MSP doesn't "fit the suit". In other words: the route map is prettier without it. Smile
That was a joke right? This thread asks what would become of MSP and DTW in the case of a US/NW merger.
In all seriousness though, I want to know why people think MSP would be reduced to a focus city when it is currently the largest O&D market, largest hub by passengers carried, largest by destinations served, and the headquarters of NW.
PlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4537 posts, RR: 28 Reply 19, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 4718 times:
Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 17): I guess MSP doesn't "fit the suit". In other words: the route map is prettier without it.
Quoting SESGDL (Reply 18): In all seriousness though, I want to know why people think MSP would be reduced to a focus city when it is currently the largest O&D market, largest hub by passengers carried, largest by destinations served, and the headquarters of NW.
I was starting to reply earlier in this thread with the same question, but just moved on instead. I agree, from everything I've heard MSP is a great market, regardless of it's hub status. Lots of O&D, nice terminal, etc. DTW from the sound of it has less O&D, which has always surprised me.
My "joke" above was tongue-in-cheek: I think people look at the combined hub map and think that you can only have certain numbers of hubs or certain geometric patterns (i.e. triangles) in order to be successful. I was merely poking fun at that.
United777ORD From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 261 posts, RR: 1 Reply 20, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 4698 times:
If US/NW merge, MSP and DTW are two hubs in the midwest that will greatly improve the efficiency and reach of the US route network. Both DTW and MSP should be kept as hubs because PHL is congested and diverting DTW traffic into PHL is stupid when DTW has a brand new terminal and efficient parallel runways. IMO some PHL traffic should be moved to DTW until PHL builds a new airport or builds more runways. The delays are costing US.
Domestic European Gateways:
CLT-all current european gateways+ CDG
DTW-all current european gateways
PHL-all current european gateways
PHX-FRA, LGW, CDG,
LAS-FRA, CDG, LGW
MSP-all current european gateways
PIT-LGW
*The B733/734 and D9S/D94/D95 would be retired if the two carriers were to merge.
I hope this happens and hopefully US will still remain in the Star Alliance. NW/US merger would kick some..lol....but United will always be my airline.
FCYTravis From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 1191 posts, RR: 6 Reply 21, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 4694 times:
Quoting MalpensaSFO (Reply 6): It would also be safe to say that DCA, LGA, and BOS would all see a reduction in flights.
Um, why is it safe to say that US would get rid of what has to be one of the brightest jewels in the tarnished Northeast crown - that is, their focus city operations at an extremely-slot-restricted Washington National Airport? DCA is *growing* under the new US management, not shrinking. Controlling 26 percent of the traffic in and out of DCA is not something one just throws away. Remember, the shutdown of National post-9/11 was one of the major factors in driving US into bankruptcy.
USAir A321 service now departing for SFO with fuel stops in CAK, COS and RNO. Enjoy your flight.
PlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4537 posts, RR: 28 Reply 22, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 4652 times:
Quoting FCYTravis (Reply 21): Um, why is it safe to say that US would get rid of what has to be one of the brightest jewels in the tarnished Northeast crown - that is, their focus city operations at an extremely-slot-restricted Washington National Airport?
Exactly. With control over so many of the slots, they can "right size" the aircraft to the route and focus on holding on to as much O&D as possible. Throw some of the new E-jets onto the routes too light for an A319 or 733 and both make money and keep a competitor from adding one more flight.
Quoting United777ORD (Reply 20): IMO some PHL traffic should be moved to DTW until PHL builds a new airport or builds more runways.
Seems logical to push some of the non-critical connecting traffic out to DTW, though this is a similar role to PIT and that didn't get them very far. I guess with the scale of the operation at DTW, and perhaps with a little more O&D, it can do what PIT ultimately couldn't: Compliment, rather than compete with, PHL and CLT.
Usairways85 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 3097 posts, RR: 8 Reply 23, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 4600 times:
Quoting RwSEA (Reply 16): Why would they dump their flights from SEA-AMS or SEA-NRT? These flights are very profitable and contribute to NW's strong presence in the area. It would be foolish to dump them. If it's making money, don't mess with it. Same with HNL.
Did I ever say they should get rid of these flts. I was merely stating that these cities are not focus cites (PDX, SEA). They are simply cities with some non-hub flts.
Quoting United777ORD (Reply 20): PHL is congested and diverting DTW traffic into PHL is stupid
I agree and disagree. Some domestic connections that go through PHL now should be moved to DTW which does have a much better location for connections, at least east-west. However, PHL is in a much better location for European connections and so while MSP and DTW would probably retain some European Ops, PHL would ultimately become the major transatlantic gateway.
Quoting United777ORD (Reply 20): DTW has a brand new terminal and efficient parallel runways. IMO some PHL traffic should be moved to DTW until PHL builds a new airport or builds more runways. The delays are costing US.
Terminals are not a huge factor. While DTW does have a very nice facility, PHL does have two new terminals as well although probably not as easy to navigate. Also don't throw statements around that the delays are costing US unless you can back it up. It has been said that PHL US' number one money generating hub. The delays certainly don't help and if they are ever reduced US would probably make more money, but you talk of the delays as if it is a main problem and is causing US to lose money hand over fist. If it were that big of a problem and not even PHL's O&D market could overcome it then they would have choose PIT not PHL.
RwSEA From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 3014 posts, RR: 2 Reply 24, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 4513 times:
Quoting Usairways85 (Reply 23): I was merely stating that these cities are not focus cites (PDX, SEA). They are simply cities with some non-hub flts.
PDX certainly is not a focus city. SEA is debatable - flights to AMS/NRT/HNL/OGG/IND in addition to the hubs. Maintenance base and FA base. Additionally, high frequencies to the hubs (ex. SEA-MSP is 10x daily, entirely with a mix of 752/753). Quite a few connecting pax to Hawaii and Asia, as well as persistent rumors of increased frequencies to NRT, and potentially flights to KIX or CDG. That's a pretty significant operation.
25 United777ORD: Thank you for your comment. IMO At PIT, I think the new US needs to continue operating the routes that are profitable for them. If NW/US merge, the n
26 FCYTravis: Umm... that would be +75 dailies at PHX, -75 at PHL, and I don't see that at all. PHL's huge O&D market, the strong transatlantic base and the overal
27 Centrair: What happened to the 744s? As for MSP...HUB. DTW has the automakers and suppliers, but MSP is 8th when it comes to Fortune 500 HQ. (Cities with five
28 Usairways85: I don't know, but with all these major cities wouldn't it make sense that getting from pt A to pt B would be even more efficient on one airline with m
29 United777ORD: I disagree. US currently has 522 flights out of CLT so 575 after the NW/US merge is a reasonable number. Charlotte is growing and since US significan
30 KarlB737: And in your opinion what would become of Pinnacle and Mesaba?
31 CIDflyer: Question: which name would remain: US or NW?
32 D L X: United has IAD and ORD. The two hubs DTW and PHL would serve different purposes. (And it's a lot better than having PHL and PIT.) I'd bet that a merg
33 United777ORD: IMO I think Pinnacle and Mesaba would merge and become Mesaba-Pinnacle Airlines. So for the new NW/US the regional airlines would be: Air Wisconsin C
34 FCYTravis: CLT would grow because it would pick up the slack from the pulldown of MEM, and it's a strong SE connecting hubsite to begin with. Weather-free, no op
35 Centrair: I guess it would depend on the direction of the merger. If US merges with NW, then they become NW. If NW merges with US, then they become US. But mer
36 FCYTravis: Er, US already owns PSA and Piedmont. No airline is going to buy up all their regional carriers. That would eliminate the whipsaw effect.
37 Gregarious119: So how's about one of these livery guru's around here throw's together something that fits that? Keep most of the US basic livery but switch the tail
38 Jdwfloyd: The name would be USAirways. Parker likes the feel of a non-regional name such as NW or HP. Its very important to them to project a feeling of a world
39 HPRamper: I say US. It is an all-encompassing name, while Northwest has regional tones, just like America West had. What I want to know is what would happen wi
40 Usairways85: CLT is already the focus for Latin America and the Caribbean and US serves just about every destination they can from CLT. Some of the FLL routes wer
41 Centrair: I believe the agreement between NW and KL is up soon. KL merged with AF and AF had better relations with DL which they would like to continue, but la
42 Jdwfloyd: I would like to see US stay in Star. I think a combined US/NW would fit better into star due to the increased pressence at NRT and the EU routes that
43 N908AW: Then wouldn't that make it perfect to tap into all three regions if it was "just beyond reach" of the three? We don't have very many Midwestern hubs
44 Centrair: Though it would be nice...Increased pressence at NRT? Star already has NH and UA. UA has 5th freedom and NH is a hometown airline. T1's new wing does
45 D L X: You'd have severe antitrust problems with US staying in Star after buying NW. Japan rights would be the most obvious example.
46 N908AW: Of course, a US/NW combination would basically offer about as much as an alliance anyway.
47 Malexander131: Are any of NW's NRT slots transferrable? If US were to acquire NW, I would think they'd try and move the Tokyko frequencies to PHL and/or CLT along wi
48 PHLBOS: Would NW's BOS-AMS route survive a US merger?
49 MalpensaSFO: If SkyTeam was the alliance of choice..
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