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Southwest 737-300s To Get Winglets  
User currently offlineDrerx7 From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5065 posts, RR: 8
Posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 7141 times:

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/060719/sfw034.html?.v=65

Another interesting site to spot at WN heavy airports.


Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
59 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineKFLLCFII From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 3288 posts, RR: 31
Reply 1, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 7055 times:

Which then leaves only the -500s wingletless...


"About the only way to look at it, just a pity you are not POTUS KFLLCFII, seems as if we would all be better off."
User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 915 posts, RR: 51
Reply 2, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 7024 times:

According to the article:

SEATTLE, July 19 /PRNewswire/ -- Southwest Airlines has taken another step separating themselves from their competition by committing to install Aviation Partners Boeing Blended Winglets on up to 90 of their 737-300 aircraft. The order of 59 firm systems and 31 options follows Southwest's commitment in June of 2003 to install Blended Winglets on all of their 737-700 aircraft. Installations are planned to begin in early 2007.

So that's 59 firm orders for a fleet that consist of about 194 733.

I suppose WN will do an evaluation of these 59 aircraft before proceeding to upgrade the rest of the fleet. Not to mention, some of the first 733 were expected to be retired in 2008 and 2009, so it makes sense that some of the older aircraft will never recieve the upgrade.


User currently offlineDacman From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 444 posts, RR: 9
Reply 3, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 7024 times:

WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This is big news for our airline................last I heard it had been decided not to add them.

I look forward to seeing this new addition to our -300s....awseome!

Mike
dacman
LGB/LAX Local



"Airliner Photography is not a crime"
User currently offlineAA777223 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 1219 posts, RR: 7
Reply 4, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 6871 times:

I didn't know they could do that to the 733. This is somewhat sad, because it means they are planning on keeping them for the forseeable future. Why would they do that with so many 737-700s on order?


Sic 'em bears
User currently offlinePlanespotting From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 3512 posts, RR: 5
Reply 5, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 6846 times:

Quoting Dacman (Reply 3):
This is big news for our airline................last I heard it had been decided not to add them.

I thought so too! That something with the 737-300 precluded them from getting the same kind of fuel efficiencies with the winglets that the other a/c had been able to get. Apparently Aviation Partners has found a way!



Do you like movies about gladiators?
User currently offlinePHLBOS From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 7482 posts, RR: 24
Reply 6, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 6846 times:

Quoting AA777223 (Reply 4):
Why would they do that with so many 737-700s on order?

Probably because those 737-700s that are on order will be used for service expansion and not merely replacing older equipment. Also, it probably takes longer for WN (or any airline for that matter) to receive a new plane than to have an existing plane retro-fitted.



"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
User currently offlinePVD757 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3406 posts, RR: 17
Reply 7, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 6821 times:

Quoting AA777223 (Reply 4):
Why would they do that with so many 737-700s on order?

I think its pretty simple - as long as the cost savings from the better fuel burn the winglets provide over the sum of the number of years the aircraft will remain in service is greater than the cost of installing the winglets - it's worth it. Add in the cost savings from extending the payload range of the 733 and any others I haven't thought of, and it becomes even more of a no-brainer.


User currently offlineScottB From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 6579 posts, RR: 32
Reply 8, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 6724 times:

Quoting Planespotting (Reply 5):
That something with the 737-300 precluded them from getting the same kind of fuel efficiencies with the winglets that the other a/c had been able to get.

I suspect the issue was more that the -300's are generally used on shorter hops than the -700's owing to their somewhat shorter range; as a result, the savings from installing the Blended Winglets are not as dramatic. However, the equation also changes pretty significantly when oil is at $50-80 for the foreseeable future, rather than below $30 when the winglets were originally ordered for the -700 fleet.

Certain of the -300's are likely to be in service for close to 15 more years, since the last were delivered in 1997. Only the very oldest -300's should be reaching retirement age near the end of this decade. My guess is that the winglets will be installed on the newest -300's in the fleet for now.

Quoting AA777223 (Reply 4):
Why would they do that with so many 737-700s on order?

Again, because a significant portion of the -300 fleet (69 of 195) are under 15 years old and are unlikely to be retired any time soon; the owned frames are fully paid-for, the Classic 737's are efficient and reliable, and Southwest needs the planes to maintain service and continue growing.


User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 6662 times:

Quoting AA777223 (Reply 4):
I didn't know they could do that to the 733. This is somewhat sad, because it means they are planning on keeping them for the forseeable future. Why would they do that with so many 737-700s on order?

Southwest took delivery of its first -300 (N300SW) in 11/1984, and the last one (the newest one) was N656SW on 09/26/1997. The 737-700s started coming shortly after that.

As has been explained to be by some friends over on the MX side, the winglet installations cost more and take longer (due to the internal differences between the -300's wing and the -700's wing). It previously didn't make economic sense to retrofit the -300s, but apparently the price of fuel has since risen to the point where it now makes economic sense to do so.

In previous posts on the subject, I had opined that not all -300s would get them, just the newest half of the fleet. With 59 orders and 31 options (90) that's a little over half of the 194 aircraft in the -300 fleet. It certainly makes no sense to spend the $$$ on retrofitting N300SW (22 years old) since its remaining service life won't recover the winglet costs as far as return on investment (ROI) goes. Likewise to whatever point the fleet age versus the ROI scale tips. If fuel prices continue their insane climb, it's certainly possible that the ROI changes, and another batch of older aircraft could get modified.

[Edited 2006-07-19 18:12:34]

User currently offlineDLCnxgptjax From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 353 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 6609 times:

Why would they go and do a thing like that..hehehe? Now I won't be able to immediately tell the difference between a 300 and a 700 unless I see the landing lights or until it gets closer....  hissyfit 

User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26196 posts, RR: 76
Reply 11, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 6572 times:

Quoting AA777223 (Reply 4):
This is somewhat sad, because it means they are planning on keeping them for the forseeable future. Why would they do that with so many 737-700s on order?

What is wrong with keeping them? They are excellent aircraft and are still quite efficient. Further, it allows WN to use the -700s to expand long haul while keeping the lighter -300s on shorter hops.

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 9):
With 59 orders and 31 options (90) that's a little over half of the 194 aircraft in the -300 fleet.

Just under half is what I think you mean  Wink

Quoting DLCnxgptjax (Reply 10):
Now I won't be able to immediately tell the difference between a 300 and a 700 unless I see the landing lights or until it gets closer....

Just look for the little bits of orange on the pylons



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineERAUgrad02 From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 1227 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 6554 times:

Quoting DLCnxgptjax (Reply 10):
Why would they go and do a thing like that..hehehe? Now I won't be able to immediately tell the difference between a 300 and a 700 unless I see the landing lights or until it gets closer....

Um yes you can the wings are totally different. And on the ground the -300s sit lower than the NG's



Desmond MacRae in ILM
User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 6554 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 11):
Just under half is what I think you mean

Note to self: get fully awake before posting...  Wink


User currently offlineBA787 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2006, 2596 posts, RR: 7
Reply 14, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 6554 times:

Quoting AA777223 (Reply 4):
didn't know they could do that to the 733. This is somewhat sad, because it means they are planning on keeping them for the forseeable future. Why would they do that with so many 737-700s on order?

They will be used for service expansion and WN have 194 733's which would take a lot to replace and expand


User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26196 posts, RR: 76
Reply 15, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 6554 times:

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 13):
Note to self: get fully awake before posting...

Don't worry about posting. Just make sure you are fully awake before dispatching.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 6516 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 15):
Don't worry about posting. Just make sure you are fully awake before dispatching.

Precisely why I work 1-9, 2-10, or 3-11...  Wink


User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26196 posts, RR: 76
Reply 17, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 6489 times:

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 16):
Precisely why I work 1-9, 2-10, or 3-11...

I want your job



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 6472 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 17):
I want your job

After the pounding some of our California desk folks took last night, I know a couple that might have been tempted to give them to you...  Wink


User currently offlineWe're Nuts From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5722 posts, RR: 20
Reply 19, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 6436 times:

Very cool, can't wait to see them. Good to hear the -300's will be around for a while too. I wish the -500's would stay longer!

[Edited 2006-07-19 18:49:12]


Dear moderators: No.
User currently offlineScottB From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 6579 posts, RR: 32
Reply 20, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 6376 times:

Quoting ScottB (Reply 8):
Only the very oldest -300's should be reaching retirement age near the end of this decade.

Just as confirmation of this, Laura Wright (Southwest's CFO) said today that there should be a modest number of retirements of older aircraft (i.e. the oldest -300's) commencing in 2009 or 2010.


User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 6366 times:

Quoting ScottB (Reply 20):
Just as confirmation of this, Laura Wright (Southwest's CFO) said today that there should be a modest number of retirements of older aircraft (i.e. the oldest -300's) commencing in 2009 or 2010.

That would make N300SW about 25 or 26, so that sounds about right...


User currently offlineSteeler83 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 9112 posts, RR: 18
Reply 22, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 6204 times:

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 21):
That would make N300SW about 25 or 26, so that sounds about right...

Didn't WN take first delivery of the 733, as well as USAir? IIRC, they both were the first operators of the 737-300... US took delivery in November, 1984, and I guess WN took delivery shortly after that. I guess they weren't the launch customer of the -300 then...



Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
User currently offlineAtrude777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5686 posts, RR: 52
Reply 23, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 6171 times:

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 22):
I guess they weren't the launch customer of the -300 then...

Good statement, Southwest was considered the launch customer for the 733 because WN flew the 733 first in revenue service, even though US Air received the 733 first.

So in thinking it is defined as the person/business/airline to officially launch them into service, and that goes to Southwest Airlines for first launching the 737-300 into revenue service, again even though, US Air bought and received them first!

Alex



Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
User currently offlineTom in NO From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 7194 posts, RR: 35
Reply 24, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 6147 times:

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 22):
Didn't WN take first delivery of the 733, as well as USAir?

Doing a little research here:

USAir took delivery of N353AU on 11/28/84
Southwest took delivery of N300SW on 11/30/84

A quick aside to OPNLguy or others from WN.....is WN considering transferring the CA-1, AZ-1, Triple Crown, etc -300 theme plane liveries over to -700 series aircraft?

Tom at MSY



"The criminal ineptitude makes you furious"-Bruce Springsteen, after seeing firsthand the damage from Hurricane Katrina
25 Post contains links and images Capital146 : Here's a -300 already fitted with winglets: View Large View MediumPhoto © Harri Koskinen View Large View MediumPhoto © Sergio Morchon – Ib
26 Atrude777 : Oh boy that would be wicked! Just like they did with Shamu! Alex
27 OPNLguy : I haven't heard of any specific plans to do so, but it wouldn't surprise me if we did at some point, most likely to coincide with a scheduled paint j
28 Post contains images PanAm330 : Now if we can only get US to get some of these for their -300s...
29 Post contains images LV : Man, I would love that shift. I used to have that shift, now I am working overnights 11 PM to 8 AM.... think you could talk my boss into move me
30 Post contains images Socal : Good news, those -300's will look very good with winglets.
31 Thering : Nice! This goes in line with what WN's CEO said, that the -300s will fly at least till 2012.... They are very good and capable airplanes, and will be
32 Post contains images Silver1SWA : That is something I have often wondered myself. However, I believe all of the themed -300s have been repainted within the past 2-3 years so I'm sure
33 SCXmechanic : Because it's in the contracted price that SWA has agreed to pay Boeing for each delivery. Any changes to that contract must be agreed upon and in pla
34 OPNLguy : We were doing some at ROW but I haven't seen any there lately...
35 SCXmechanic : OPNL, Thanks... I'll be at HDQ Aug 8th 9th and 10th for some training. I'll ask around and see whats up with the painting.
36 Silver1SWA : Thanks, that makes sense. I figured it dealt with costs. Does that mean MD 1 and Slam Dunk 1 have been in the works for a couple or years? Or did som
37 SCXmechanic : That's something I can't answer... Its above my pay grade.. lol I can only attest to what I read in the 10k's /Annual Reports.
38 Thering : Do they still operates the -500 series? How many of them? They can't get winglets right?
39 DfwRevolution : Yes, WN opperates 25 737-500. I suppose they could fit winglets to the 735 if they wanted to at some point?
40 OPNLguy : Still have all 25. Winglets could be installed, theoretically, but I don't think FAA has approved a STC for the -500s winglets yet. Not that many -50
41 AirTranTUS : That's what I was thinking! BTW..How do the landing light differentiate a -300 from a -700? I know that the engine exhaust design is different and th
42 Atrude777 : Using Reg's. N3XX, N6XX are -300 N2XX, N4XX and N7XX are -700's N5XX are -500's Exhaust is different yes, -700's have red canoes under the wings, top
43 Da man : Yes, the -300s have grey flap canoes.
44 Post contains images Silver1SWA : Too many...do a search. The differences have been spelled out many, MANY times before. Too tired to go through them all again. All I will say is the
45 Post contains links and images American777 : Here is a WN 737-300 with winglets: Modified Airliner Photos:Design © Bobby CatoneTemplate © Zachary Chelsky JOE.
46 Post contains images OPNLguy : Unforetunately, N303SW sure really won't be one of the ones getting winglets...
47 Steeler83 : yeah, like range of aircraft, cabin length, and even looking at individual routes that airlines run using specific aircraft depending on pax loads, r
48 OPNLguy : Probably. We took delivery of them all in the 1990-1992 timeframe, so based purely on projected -300 retirements, the -500s would be around until at
49 Post contains images American777 : I never said N303SW was going to get winglets! That is just a fake picture that was made by a WN fan a long time ago. And how the heck do you know is
50 Post contains images OPNLguy : Yes, I know. Note the at the end of my message (and lighten up) Common sense, and a knowledge of our fleet. The announced winglet order was for 59 sh
51 Post contains images Seanp11 : Unfortunately, I doubt we will ever see a WN 733 with both winglets and eyebrow windows.
52 Post contains images American777 : Answer: JOE.
53 Silver1SWA : Ok sorry. Allow me to rephrase that...There are plenty of distinct PHYSICAL differences that are not airline specific! At the rate they are plugging
54 AK : No kidding! Not only the themed a/c but it seems that almost all of our re-liveried a/c are fading at the top of the fuselage (canyon blue) and the f
55 Post contains images OPNLguy : Beats me; I'm OPNLguy, not MXguy... I wouldn't bet on it. Out of the 59 (if not 90) -300s to get winglets, at least some of them will get their eyebr
56 Grantcv : I hope these winglets will have patches and rivets all over them to match the fuselages on many Southwest B733s.
57 Post contains images OPNLguy : I doubt that you'd see those on the 90 newest -300s...
58 AirTranTUS : Does plugging the windows really result in that much of a fuel savings? And are there any pics of planes with only one side plugged?
59 Silver1SWA : I don't think it has anything to do with fuel savings. It's a maintenance issue. Plugging them eliminates the cost of maintaining them. I have not se
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