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DL To Start JAX-PNS  
User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6606 posts, RR: 24
Posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 4960 times:

Beginning September 11th, 2006, DL will launch a 1x daily nonstop flight from JAX to PNS. The flight will be operated by a Comair CRJ.

This route has potential as there is a good deal of traffic moving between PNS and JAX. DL's big competitor on this route won't be other airlines, but rather the automobile. It's only about a five hour drive down I-10, so DL's prices will have to be competitive.

It may also be difficult to get people to think about flying this route versus driving. Right now, most people just assume that the only way to go is to drive...since flying right now would require connecting through places like ATL or CLT.

This route has been flown before. Continental had a 1x daily 737-500 that flew this route for about a year or two in 1999-2000. The plane was typically routed IAH-PNS-JAX-EWR. USAirways Express also had a 2-3x daily flights that were routed PNS-TLH-JAX using the BE1900.

51 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDAL767400ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 4941 times:

Interesting move. Would certainly be an interesting alternative to the "Route of Boredom" that is I-10.

User currently offlineRL757PVD From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 4663 posts, RR: 11
Reply 2, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 4932 times:

Gee I wonder who they are going for on this route...could it be the.... NAVY!


Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
User currently offlineAvConsultant From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 1360 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 4932 times:

This will be successful as long as it's priced correctly. DL seems to focus on PNS, it's been a good amrket for them and rightfully so.

User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6606 posts, RR: 24
Reply 4, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 4851 times:

Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 2):
Gee I wonder who they are going for on this route...could it be the.... NAVY!

Of course. I almost thought they should have the plane continue on to ORF. However, the ORF-JAX segment would go head to head with WN which would be a problem.

Quoting AvConsultant (Reply 3):
This will be successful as long as it's priced correctly. DL seems to focus on PNS, it's been a good amrket for them and rightfully so.

Pricing will be key. It'll be a purely O+D route, so yields should be higher. However, if DL pushes too high, people will simply drive.

DL has been dominant at PNS for a long time. Cuts made by DL last fall/winter caused DL's marketshare to slide. Airtran also saw DL's cuts as a signal and beefed up to 5x daily on the ATL-PNS run. In recent months though, DL has come back strong adding capacity back to ATL and re-instating CVG.

This fall DL will have 19 daily flights from PNS:
8x ATL (1x757, 6xMD88, 1xCRJ)
4x MCO (ERJ)
3x TPA (ERJ)
2x FLL (ERJ)
1x CVG (CRJ)
1x JAX (CRJ)


User currently offlineTheLUREnyc From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 4771 times:

With just one frequency a day, it doesn't sound like some exciting new market they're developing .. it sounds almost more like an aircraft re-positioning or a tag on to another route. In order to be attractive or useful to business travellers, one freq per day aint gonna cut it!

User currently offlineJbmitt From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 547 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 4765 times:

I disagree. How much business really goes on between JAX and PNS. If anything this flight allows for people from say ATL to fly to PNS for business, connect to JAX for more business and then fly home to ATL from JAX.

I flight a day is fine for this. Its only 50 seats, and Florida has plenty of leisure traffic.


User currently offlineAirCop From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 4743 times:

Quoting TheLUREnyc (Reply 5):
With just one frequency a day, it doesn't sound like some exciting new market they're developing .. it sounds almost more like an aircraft re-positioning or a tag on to another route.

 champagne   checkmark  With 14 passengers a day between the two cities I really don't see it very successful has a stand alone route. Aside from the Navy PNS and JAX have zero in common.


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32736 posts, RR: 72
Reply 8, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 4717 times:

Quoting AirCop (Reply 7):

champagne checkmark With 14 passengers a day between the two cities I really don't see it very successful has a stand alone route. Aside from the Navy PNS and JAX have zero in common.

This is a situation where you can't really use that figure. There is no reasonable flight route between Jacksonville at Pensacola. The quickest way involves connecting in Orlando, and that still is probably slower than driving.

FLL-PNS O&D was similarly non-existant when Delta launched the route in winter 2004. Now, Delta has created a significant market on the route, which is one of only two Delta RJ route from FLL launched in 2004 that still is flying.



a.
User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6606 posts, RR: 24
Reply 9, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 4635 times:

Quoting AirCop (Reply 7):
With 14 passengers a day between the two cities I really don't see it very successful has a stand alone route. Aside from the Navy PNS and JAX have zero in common.

As MAH4546 points out, you can't use the existing traffic data. Most people going between JAX and PNS drive today, so they won't show up in DOT data.

Previous analysis I've seen done, estimates there could be as many as 200 people moving daily between JAX and PNS. Most are by car, though a few go by Greyhound or Amtrak. So I think the market is there, the question is really on pricing. Can DL charge a high enough fare to make money on an RJ while not charging so much that people are turned off and keep driving??


User currently offlineOttoPylit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 4501 times:

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Thread starter):
USAirways Express also had a 2-3x daily flights that were routed PNS-TLH-JAX using the BE1900.

Actually, that aircraft's routing was the same day after day, starting as an originator in JAX. JAX-TLH-PNS-MSY-PNS-TLH-JAX. At the time, US Express(Piedmont, IIRC) had a maintenance base and hangar in JAX, but has since been vacated after US Airways two bankruptcies.

Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 2):
Gee I wonder who they are going for on this route...could it be the.... NAVY!



Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 9):
So I think the market is there, the question is really on pricing. Can DL charge a high enough fare to make money on an RJ while not charging so much that people are turned off and keep driving??

Very possible, but unlikely from my research. I think DL is hoping for the Navy to jump on it. Being that the military pays full Y government fares, it wouldn't take too much to turn the aircraft into a moneymaker. But the question is, is there enough traffic between the two cities to warrant it? Of course, it is ONLY 50 seats once a day and we know all 200 will not choose to fly, but I just don't see there being that much of a market for that flight. I predict the route probably won't last past 6 months.

Even more surprising is that it will be an OH flight. I thought DL told OH that they would get no more planes or routes until the FA's ponied up the dough? Only this morning did Comair get the blessing of the judge to void the FA's contract if they so desired, even though negotiations are still taking place. So why is this route being flown by OH? Seems RP would be a much more logical choice, and flown with a smaller 37 seat ERJ would make even more sense and have a better chance at profitability.



OttoPylit


User currently offlinePensacolaguy From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 546 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 4440 times:

Well, This route/news is a complete shocker! I would expect Continental Connection/Gulfstream Airlines, to start PNS-TLH-JAX(Or just PNS-JAX).But Delta/Comair with a CRJ?

Schedule as follows:
PNS 7:00am JAX 9:13am DL5050 1H 13M
JAX 7:00am PNS 7:17am DL5119 1H 17M

Operated by Delta Connection Carrier, Comair

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 8):
FLL-PNS O&D was similarly non-existant when Delta launched the route in winter 2004. Now, Delta has created a significant market on the route, which is one of only two Delta RJ route from FLL launched in 2004 that still is flying.

Good Point/Thanks! Surprised DL hasn't jumped on PNS-MIA...

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 9):
Can DL charge a high enough fare to make money on an RJ while not charging so much that people are turned off and keep driving??

Checking the airfare for PNS-JAX-PNS departing some 9/11 returning on 9/12, I got $297 RT. No Thanks...

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 10):
I predict the route probably won't last past 6 months.

Such negativity..

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 9):
200 people moving daily between JAX and PNS. Most are by car, though a few go by Greyhound or Amtrak.

Shortest time on Greyhound going to JAX is 8H 30M...Return is 9H 30M..With 7-Day Advance Purchase the total roundtrip fare is $90.00. And Amtrak service has been suspended, into/out of Pensacola, for a while now.  Sad


User currently offlineMSYtristar From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 6564 posts, RR: 51
Reply 12, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 4385 times:

Quoting Pensacolaguy (Reply 11):
And Amtrak service has been suspended, into/out of Pensacola, for a while now.

And don't look for it to come back anytime soon, if ever....basically a 99% chance that the Sunset won't be extended East of New Orleans anymore.


User currently offlineJmhluv2fly From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 559 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 4318 times:

Im not sure about PNS-JAX market, I remember Delta sending me an email survey not too long ago, asking me questions about how likely I would be to purchase a ticket out of the PNS market to various Florida markets, if memory serves I think they asked about PBI, RSW, and JAX as a matter of fact, I answered pretty much neither likely or not likely to purchase such a ticket in that market I would likely drive I suppose, but we shall see how it goes..
One thing I will add, I work for a company thats supports ramp services for Delta in Pensacola, and I have noticed on the baggage tags and passenger traffic, that one thing Delta has very cleverly done in a way to work around the competition and fill airplanes out of competitive markets like PNS, I see passengers traveling to LAX, connecting through MCO and TPA, passengers going to BOS and LAS connecting in MCO, very intresting way to avoid the competive ATL market and fill those seats. I have also seen some down right strange passenger routing, I saw a few bags today that were tagged to
BUR (Burbank CA.) began in MCO flew to PNS xfered to ATL flight then flew on BUR, whats the point there, why fly those passnegers to the PNS market, just to fill some seats? I also saw a bag a few months back, that was tagged to HSV, Hunstville, AL, they had this poor guy flying TPA-PNS-MCO-ATL-HSV
I kid you not, that is awful, I would almost drive first.
Delta also operates PNS-CVG flight once a da. On every day except Saturday the flight terminates in PNS at 2130 on Saturday it comes in at the hour of 1930, when I noticed such a schedule on Saturday, I thought this has to be in some way related to AirTran operations, so I checked it out, sure enough, on Saturdays, AirTran's last DAY-ATL departs at 5pm I think, and the 7pm does not operate, no evening competition on Saturday, it comes in earlier.
Will be interesting to see how things play out.
JMH-Pensacola, Florida.


User currently offlineARGinLON From Vatican City, joined Jun 2005, 614 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 4312 times:

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Thread starter):
This route has been flown before. Continental had a 1x daily 737-500 that flew this route for about a year or two in 1999-2000

That route does not seem too bad but certainly a 735 is probably too much for this.

Didn't CO operate the B737 IAH-PNS-AH until a year ago or so?


User currently offlineJmhLUV2fly From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 559 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 4306 times:

For Continental, PNS has unofficially been an express station for a couple years now. Every once in a really long while a 737 will come in.
All PNS sees by way of CO are ERJ's serving IAH and B1900's serving TPA, but they keep those birds coming in, it was interesting yesterday at one point CO had three ERJ's and a B1900 on the ground, very unusual, I think one airplane was a diversion and the other two ERJ's delayed traffic out if IAH, not really sure, but for about 30 minutes or so it almost looked like a slice of IAH, Continental land.

JMH-PNS


User currently offlineOttoPylit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 4284 times:

Quoting Pensacolaguy (Reply 11):
Such negativity..

LOL Negativity? No. Realistic? Yes. Don't get me wrong, I would love for this route to work. But as of right now, I don't see it lasting or having much of a purpose with 1 flight a day and planning for year round. I would expect JAX-TLH to be more likely than this route.



OttoPylit


User currently offlineJetpixx From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 851 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 4277 times:

Quoting Jmhluv2fly (Reply 13):
I also saw a bag a few months back, that was tagged to HSV, Hunstville, AL, they had this poor guy flying TPA-PNS-MCO-ATL-HSV
I kid you not, that is awful, I would almost drive first.

I've done stuff like that before - in fact, I'll look for flights like that for extra SkyMiles, assuming it is not much more than the more direct routing.

I've gone FLL-DAY on RP, DAY-DTW-CAK on NW
I've gone FLL-CMH on RP, CMH-CVG on OH and CVG-CLE on DL
I've gone FLL-ORF on RP, ORF-CVG-CAK on OH
I've gone FLL-BNA on RP, BNA-CVG-CLE on DL
I've gone PBI-TLH on RP, TLH-ATL-SEA on DL
etc. etc.

If I do not have to be somewhere in a hurry and can spare the extra time - it is worth it to add some extra FF miles to the journey. In fact, it also gives you a better chance of flying on an oversold flight and getting compensated. I know airline people hate to say something like that, but I volunteer for that every time!

Just my  twocents 


User currently offlineDTWAGENT From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1283 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 4271 times:

I would pay that price. I hate driving anything over 2 hours. I think in time the DL PNS-JAX will be doing some nice business for them. Besides DL does not just jump into a market without doing some market research and number crunching first. If they move into a new market, they must see some type of money being had for the taking....

Go DL keep up the good work...

Chuck


User currently offlineJohnClipper From Hong Kong, joined Aug 2005, 844 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 4260 times:

I flew CO in 1998/1999 IAH-PNS-JAX and it was an MD-80.

User currently offlineTWAL1011727 From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 626 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 4223 times:

Quoting Jmhluv2fly (Reply 13):
BUR (Burbank CA.) began in MCO flew to PNS xfered to ATL flight then flew on BUR, whats the point there

Try getting on an DL MCO-ATL flt on less than a 2 week advance.
DL still manages to fill up their wide body flts to ATL so if you have to go thru PNS to get to ATL - so be it. Do what ya gotta do to get there I guess.

KD


User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6606 posts, RR: 24
Reply 21, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 4191 times:

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 10):
Actually, that aircraft's routing was the same day after day, starting as an originator in JAX. JAX-TLH-PNS-MSY-PNS-TLH-JAX.

Actually, some of the planes continued on from MSY to SHV, so the entire leg was JAX-TLH-PNS-MSY-SHV.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 10):
I think DL is hoping for the Navy to jump on it. Being that the military pays full Y government fares, it wouldn't take too much to turn the aircraft into a moneymaker.

I agree. If this route is to survive, DL will need some of those lucrative government Y fares.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 10):
I thought DL told OH that they would get no more planes or routes until the FA's ponied up the dough? Only this morning did Comair get the blessing of the judge to void the FA's contract if they so desired, even though negotiations are still taking place. So why is this route being flown by OH?

I'm not sure why OH got the route, however OH is allowed to pick up new routes (but no new planes). My guess is OH got the route because they had aircraft available. RP has been moved out of Florida to CVG and Freedom has taken over, so there are no ER3's around.

Quoting Pensacolaguy (Reply 11):
And Amtrak service has been suspended, into/out of Pensacola, for a while now.

Yeah, I forgot about that. The study about traffic between PNS and JAX was done before Katrina when Amtrak was still running.


User currently offlineClearedDirect From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 271 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 4160 times:

Quoting TWAL1011727 (Reply 20):
Try getting on an DL MCO-ATL flt on less than a 2 week advance.

With our corporate headquarters in ATL - i have found this challenge many times. Between AirTran and DL there are plenty of flights but they are always near capacity and they rightly charge for it.

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 1):
Interesting move. Would certainly be an interesting alternative to the "Route of Boredom" that is I-10.

Couldnt agree more! If you have seen one mile of I-10, you have seen ALL of I-10.

Hope the route works, I often fly MCO-TLH to avoid the 4 hour drive.


User currently offlineOttoPylit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 4145 times:

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 21):
Actually, some of the planes continued on from MSY to SHV, so the entire leg was JAX-TLH-PNS-MSY-SHV.

Must have only been on weekends or whenever they needed to substitute aircraft, as that is another 500 mile roundtrip that the plane(and usually was the same crew) would have to make up to arrive at the same time back in those cities. Otherwise, there is no way that could happen daily with the same ship.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 4):
Pricing will be key. It'll be a purely O+D route, so yields should be higher. However, if DL pushes too high, people will simply drive.



Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 21):
I agree. If this route is to survive, DL will need some of those lucrative government Y fares.

I thought you were already so sure about the yields being positive. Now you sound somewhat hesitant.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 21):
My guess is OH got the route because they had aircraft available.

Well, of course they have airframes available. Fly through CVG sometime and you can usually see about 10 birds sitting parked near the DHL ops, but with nowhere to go. Even a Freedom 50 seater would be better and more cost effective, given Comair's wages compared to Freedom's. Much lower, actually.

Quoting ClearedDirect (Reply 22):
Couldnt agree more! If you have seen one mile of I-10, you have seen ALL of I-10.

 rotfl  Isn't that the truth. When I was in the Air Force, I once chose to drive to Sheppard AFB at SPS from where I lived in JAX. Being that I-10 starts in JAX, imagine that drive. Nearly 2/3rd's of the trip was I-10, and then the rest of that was boring, brown Texas. So that quote is extremely accurate.



OttoPylit


User currently offlineMSYtristar From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 6564 posts, RR: 51
Reply 24, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 4137 times:

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 23):
Nearly 2/3rd's of the trip was I-10, and then the rest of that was boring, brown Texas

So you're telling me you're not a fan of the oh-so-scenic drive on the 10 between Houston and El Paso?????


25 ExpressJet_ERJ : Wow this route is a shocker to me. Why doesnt Delta fly MCO or TPA-JAX or even bigger question TPA-MCO (perfect for a turbo prop). These routes i thin
26 Tinpusher007 : DL loves these intra-Florida routes with RJ's.
27 USPIT10L : TPA and MCO are so close it's faster to drive. No one has flown that route since DL Express back in 1998-99. Ditto with TPA-JAX, US dropped it as Air
28 AvConsultant : Not like they use too. There could be some marketing $$ from both airports. I flew into BQK last month. While checking in, a CSA recognized a FF and
29 Post contains images OttoPylit : It was such a boring drive, I had to keep the radio to earsplitting volume just to keep from falling asleep. For the next week, I had to keep asking
30 ExpressJet_ERJ : We have 15 ER3s for Delta Connection with 2 spare aircraft painted White with a blue tail.
31 FlyPNS1 : I think the yields will be higher because of the O+D nature of the traffic. However, to make this route really profitable, I think they will need the
32 AvConsultant : It's a very nice terminal. Get this, free parking. The TSA has or had weird procedures. They force everyone through security a good 30 minutes before
33 OttoPylit : Oh yea, BQK has always had that. Very nice. The first time I flew out of BQK, as soon as I stepped out of the car, there was a 6 person golf cart rig
34 FLAIRPORT : um...WN?
35 Post contains links FlyPNS1 : Here's the official press release from DL. http://biz.yahoo.com/pz/060724/102635.html What I can't figure out is where the plane that flies PNS-JAX is
36 Post contains images DAL767400ER : Interesting to see them also startin BOS-DAY and saturday-only DCA-SAV (since the DOT didn't grant them a slot at DCA to do so). The answer to all suc
37 MAH4546 : So smart of Delta to mention what airport the SAV flights goes to the in PR. No mention of Regan or Dulles.
38 DAL767400ER : Indeed, but a short look at delta.com confirms that it'll be DCA.
39 Humberside : With DL starting JAX-PNS, are they likely to consider bringing back another Point2Point route - RDU-MSY?
40 CasInterest : It would be interesting to see, but I think that a lot more convention traffic, and residential return would have to be seen in MSY. As to the topic
41 Post contains images AvConsultant : On my flight it would have been 49, my Glock was at home. If someone did attempt that, talk about having a bad day!!
42 DAL767400ER : Yes, you could do 80 most of the way, but within a 20-mile radius of TLH I'd avoid even going 5mph over the limit. I might not drive through TLH ofte
43 CasInterest : The FHP never seemed to bother me. They usually give you 10-15MPH. It was always those sherrifs around the Suwanee River that were pulling people and
44 73G : That my friends would be the Madison County Sherriff's Department. Its a rural county with a sub 50,000 population and some ridiculous amount of the
45 OttoPylit : Sounds very close to Waldo, FL, between GNV and JAX. A very rural county, and a well-known speed trap. The police knowingly placed speed limit signs
46 DAL767400ER : Damn, is that even legal? E.g. here in Germany we have regulations that prohibit multiple speed limit signs being put up within such a short distance
47 OttoPylit : Unfortunately yes. But there is many a driver who would like nothing more than to see Waldo police get their butts kicked in a legal dispute. OttoPyl
48 Post contains images Ha787 : go delta beat the atiomobile !
49 DAL767400ER : I can really understand that *note to self: Never drive US-301 through Waldo,FL*
50 Jmhluv2fly : Looks like Delta is offering an introductory fair of 99 bucks one way and ticket must be purchased by 15 Aug. This was stated on local news broadcast.
51 DeltaMIA : The flight PNS-JAX originates in PNS after arriving from CVG the night before. After 10SEP the CVG flight departs at 07:37 after arriving from JAX at
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