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DL Makes ATL-VCE Year Round  
User currently offlineNycfly75 From Italy, joined Aug 2005, 766 posts, RR: 9
Posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 4243 times:

The press release is from June, but i just noticed that DL is making ATL-VCE year round.
http://news.delta.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=10270 (Italian)

IS JFK-VCE a prime candidate for a 757 ETOPS during the off season?

22 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineRwSEA From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 3135 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 4217 times:

While I don't speak Italian, I'll have to take you for your word  Smile. However, this is surprising - alot of people thought ATL-VCE wouldn't even return next year at all, let alone go year-round.

Can a 757 fly JFK-VCE reliably without restrictions?


User currently offlineDAL767400ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 4217 times:

Quoting Nycfly75 (Thread starter):
IS JFK-VCE a prime candidate for a 757 ETOPS during the off season?

Doubtful. CO is already pushing the 757's boundaries with EWR-TXL at 3458nm. JFK-VCE would be 152nm longer, and even with winglets, I don't think it could be possible.

Edit: Can confirm that the flight continues during winter, appearantly operates TuThSa.

[Edited 2006-07-24 21:33:42]

User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 56
Reply 3, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 4191 times:

Its interesting that Delta feels that it can make Atlanta-Venice work year-round.....Italy is a tough market in the winter (most of southern Europe is) and even flights to "stronger" Italian cities such as Rome and Milan struggle during the winter months. Venice has a greater percentage of leisure traffic, and I also believe that the route has a good amount of cruise ship passengers using the Venice route to get to their cruise or to return to the US - leisure traffic between the US and Southern Europe drops off significantly during the Winter and almost all of those cruise ships operating in the Med move to the Caribbean for the Winter. I think that the article says that the winter service will operate 4 times per week. While I trust that Detla did its research, I have my doubts.

Interesting....this is certainly one to watch.

Quoting Nycfly75 (Thread starter):
IS JFK-VCE a prime candidate for a 757 ETOPS during the off season?

JFK-VCE is probably just beyond the scope of "comfortable" 757 operations, the route is just a bit too long and with winter winds, its would probably be an operational headache for Delta.....having to operate the route with 757s taking lots of restricitons would likely result in losses. If DL determines that JFK-VCE is also suitable for year round ops, it will stay with the 763ER and operate on a reduced frequency similiar to the ATL flight. My guess, anyway.


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33289 posts, RR: 71
Reply 4, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 4178 times:

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 1):
While I don't speak Italian, I'll have to take you for your word Smile. However, this is surprising - alot of people thought ATL-VCE wouldn't even return next year at all, let alone go year-round.

The article doesn't mention anything about it going year-round, but it is in res systems.

I'm very surprised, but nice have seen them do well on the route. Yield is pretty good to Venice. They are simply going to operate one daily flights to VCE this summer, 3 flights to ATL and 4 to JFK.



a.
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17829 posts, RR: 46
Reply 5, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 4178 times:

Are ATL-ATH/BCN/NCE all remaining seasonal?


E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineDAL767400ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 4145 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 6):
Are ATL-ATH/BCN/NCE all remaining seasonal?

Yup, indeed, no flights can be found on either route in the winter time.


User currently offlineNycfly75 From Italy, joined Aug 2005, 766 posts, RR: 9
Reply 7, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 4145 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 4):
The article doesn't mention anything about it going year-round, but it is in res systems.

I apologize for the article being in Italian, but there is one sentence in the article that says "the flight...which will also operate during the winter seaon..."


User currently offlineAirMailer From United States of America, joined May 2006, 481 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 4131 times:

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 3):
Its interesting that Delta feels that it can make Atlanta-Venice work year-round.....Italy is a tough market in the winter (most of southern Europe is) and even flights to "stronger" Italian cities such as Rome and Milan struggle during the winter months. Venice has a greater percentage of leisure traffic

Dutch,
Not that I have ever been there personally, but several of my friends tell me that winter time in Venice is more enjoyable; they all say that they prefer the lesser amount of tourists, and several of them mentioned that the city smells better in the winter.
I don't know about the smell thing, but a couple of them have mentioned it.

Based on it's Lattitude, wouldn't Venice also be a nice place during sping and fall, not just summer?


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33289 posts, RR: 71
Reply 9, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 4067 times:

Quoting Nycfly75 (Reply 8):
I apologize for the article being in Italian, but there is one sentence in the article that says "the flight...which will also operate during the winter seaon..."

True, I missed that. It is in the first paragraph. Interesting they announced it so long ago, but only recently put it in the GDS.



a.
User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 56
Reply 10, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 4058 times:

Quoting AirMailer (Reply 9):

Dutch,
Not that I have ever been there personally, but several of my friends tell me that winter time in Venice is more enjoyable; they all say that they prefer the lesser amount of tourists, and several of them mentioned that the city smells better in the winter.
I don't know about the smell thing, but a couple of them have mentioned it.

Based on it's Lattitude, wouldn't Venice also be a nice place during sping and fall, not just summer?

Venice is beautiful in the off-season, most places are, who likes crowds?

I think that you answered your own question......you say that there are less tourists in Venice during the Winter....if there are less tourists, then less airline seats are needed. Thus, can Delta keep this route running during the Winter and make a profit?

As I said above, Venice will be an interesting one to watch......I trust that Delta did do it homework and research, but Americans head to Venice during the Summer months, when the weather is warm and Americans take their annual holiday which could include Venice or a Med Cruise, Are they going in the Winter? I dont think so....so this is one to watch.


User currently offlineNycfly75 From Italy, joined Aug 2005, 766 posts, RR: 9
Reply 11, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 4028 times:

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 11):
I trust that Delta did do it homework and research, but Americans head to Venice during the Summer months, when the weather is warm and Americans take their annual holiday which could include Venice or a Med Cruise, Are they going in the Winter? I dont think so....so this is one to watch.

Remember, Italians go on holiday too  Wink


User currently offlineAirMailer From United States of America, joined May 2006, 481 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 4000 times:

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 11):
when the weather is warm and Americans take their annual holiday

Dutch,
We don't have an annual holliday.
We have the big 6.
I personally am able to do the most travelling during December, January, February, and late July/ early August thanks to my workload cycle.

I guess that the closest thing that I would consider to an annual holiday would be the week between Christmas and New Years; half the country (or so it seems) takes off during that time.
After that, the months of August and December tend to be pretty slow from a work perspective at most companies that I have worked at.

One thing to note is that DL is starting this route in early December which I think is brilliant.
We have this wonderful little thing here called 'Use It or Loose It'. The short description of it is that at alot of companies you are allowed to bank about 2 weeks of vacation per year to use later on, however most places that I have worked only allow you to carry over a max of 2 vacation weeks from one year to the next (or continue retaining the 2 weeks that you already have). This causes a lot of employees to realize suddenly in late November / early December that they are about to loose some of their vacation weeks, and some of those people then decide to go on a vacation in December... Perfect timing on DL's part I think.

Quoting Nycfly75 (Reply 12):
Remember, Italians go on holiday too

Good Point!


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33289 posts, RR: 71
Reply 13, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 3981 times:

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 3):
Its interesting that Delta feels that it can make Atlanta-Venice work year-round.....Italy is a tough market in the winter (most of southern Europe is) and even flights to "stronger" Italian cities such as Rome and Milan struggle during the winter months.

They are going to rely on Italy-originating traffic for this, which could work. Airlines often ignore the large market between Italy and the US during the winter of Italians coming to the US, to areas like NYC and Miami, as well as connecting to the Caribbean (Merida is the big Italian destination in the Caribbean region).

I fly AZ's MIA-MXP flights often, and you can always tell the composition of the flight based on the season. October through May, all Italians (and a more comfortable, larger 772). June through September, full of Americans going on vacations on a stuffy 767. What says even more is that it is impossible to get an upgrade to Magnifica during the winter months, but not that difficult during the summer. They will be able to get a lot of VCE-MIA/FLL/MID (if the route connects to MID) traffic, and that isn't bad yielding traffic either.

[Edited 2006-07-24 22:50:47]


a.
User currently offlinePanamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4977 posts, RR: 25
Reply 14, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 3965 times:
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Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 3):
Its interesting that Delta feels that it can make Atlanta-Venice work year-round.....Italy is a tough market in the winter (most of southern Europe is) and even flights to "stronger" Italian cities such as Rome and Milan struggle during the winter months. Venice has a greater percentage of leisure traffic, and I also believe that the route has a good amount of cruise ship passengers using the Venice route to get to their cruise or to return to the US - leisure traffic between the US and Southern Europe drops off significantly during the Winter and almost all of those cruise ships operating in the Med move to the Caribbean for the Winter

Actually, IIRC, isn't the VCE region one of the most prosperous in Italy with significant industry and businesses, as well as higher per capita income than most? High-yield business traffic tends to be consistently better on VCE and MXP than on FCO during most of the year; FCO is the big tourist destination of the three that cannot have enough seats in the summer. With regard to MXP, DL always has had trouble making JFK-MXP work well year-round but ATL-MXP fares quite well...


User currently offlineDAL767400ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 3926 times:

Quoting Panamair (Reply 14):
Actually, IIRC, isn't the VCE region one of the most prosperous in Italy with significant industry and businesses, as well as higher per capita income than most?

Well, according to this month's article on VCE in German "Aero International", the area around Venice is one of the top 3 economic regions in Italy, after the larger Milan area and another one I can't remember, and indeed has seen some strong industry growth. Though I'd guess most of that industry is primarily Italy- and EU-focused, not so much US and beyond.


User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 3904 times:

Remember that AZ codes on this flight so DL gets help not only selling the flight but also w/ connections.

User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 56
Reply 17, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 3837 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 13):
They are going to rely on Italy-originating traffic for this, which could work.

Good point.....I hope it works.

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 15):
the area around Venice is one of the top 3 economic regions in Italy, after the larger Milan area

Another good point......it will be interesting to see if DL can fill the airplanes up with Italian lesiure travellers headed to the US....maybe? There is more biz traffic in/out of Milan, keep that in mind.

Quoting Panamair (Reply 14):
With regard to MXP, DL always has had trouble making JFK-MXP work well year-round but ATL-MXP fares quite well...

And thats not unique to DL, most airlines have trouble with Italian routes in the winter....Rome is very difficult and even Milan, which is more business oriented, is a tough route in the winter (there is a reason why AA and NW fly seaonally to Italy). Thats what makes this Venice route so interesting.

I hope it does well......I love when "thinking outside of the box works"....as I said, this is cetainly a route to watch.


User currently offlineRamerinianair From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 1486 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 3816 times:

No biz cabin, no flight! I know over at AA, a lot of European flights go out pretty empty in Y, it's the F and C traffic that keeps the flight worthwhile. DL will not reconfig the aircraft fast enough.
SR



W N = my Worst Nightmare!!!!!
User currently offlineAirdolomiti From Germany, joined May 2003, 694 posts, RR: 9
Reply 19, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 3799 times:

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 3):
If DL determines that JFK-VCE is also suitable for year round ops, it will stay with the 763ER and operate on a reduced frequency similiar to the ATL flight.

JFK-VCE is already year-round (has been for a few years now), it operates 5 times weekly in the winter schedule  Smile

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 15):
Though I'd guess most of that industry is primarily Italy- and EU-focused, not so much US and beyond.

The local industry also has many ties with eastern Europe (Romania especially), but there are more than a few (mostly relatively small) companies which focus more on the US.


User currently offlineENCRJ From Italy, joined Nov 2004, 99 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 3771 times:

I think this thread reflects what most people think about the area around Venice (namely Veneto, Friuli and Trentino). I think the only one catching the
point was Panamair:

Quoting Panamair (Reply 14):
Actually, IIRC, isn't the VCE region one of the most prosperous in Italy with significant industry and businesses, as well as higher per capita income than most? High-yield business traffic tends to be consistently better on VCE and MXP than on FCO during most of the year; FCO is the big tourist destination of the three that cannot have enough seats in the summer. With regard to MXP, DL always has had trouble making JFK-MXP work well year-round but ATL-MXP fares quite well...

It's true. Please go and check how many flights there are from VCE (and VRN, TSF,...) to FCO,MUC,CDG,LGW,AMS,MAD and, more generally, to european hubs. This cannot only be "Italy to Europe" traffic. A bunch of people from Veneto and Friuli is "used" by LH,AF,KL,BA,etc. to feed their longhaul flights. I once heard that roughly 50% of passengers going to China from MUC with LH originated in Italy. I think that some similar figures can happen in the US traffic.

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 15):
Well, according to this month's article on VCE in German "Aero International", the area around Venice is one of the top 3 economic regions in Italy, after the larger Milan area and another one I can't remember, and indeed has seen some strong industry growth. Though I'd guess most of that industry is primarily Italy- and EU-focused, not so much US and beyond

This is not true. Many firms from Veneto are outsourcing to countries like China and Brasil, just to name a few. And outsourcing means lot of business travellers.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 13):
They are going to rely on Italy-originating traffic for this, which could work. Airlines often ignore the large market between Italy and the US during the winter of Italians coming to the US, to areas like NYC and Miami, as well as connecting to the Caribbean (Merida is the big Italian destination in the Caribbean region).

I agree. But this is not the real reason. The point is that business traffic from Veneto to US is really strong. Believe me  Wink


User currently offlineRdwootty From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2005, 905 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 3603 times:

Just a point about winter. The Ski areas are very near and easily accessible from Venice, not only Italy but Montenegro.....Dolomites etc....Also Southern Switzerland,,

User currently offlineRobertS975 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 955 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 3531 times:
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Quoting Rdwootty (Reply 21):
Just a point about winter. The Ski areas are very near and easily accessible from Venice, not only Italy but Montenegro.....Dolomites etc....Also Southern Switzerland,,

You can get there from Venice, but MXP is a far easier destination for a ski vacation.


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