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Quad Approaches/departs.  
User currently offlineBOE773 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (8 years 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 1974 times:

For an airport such as DFW with quad approach/depart capability, are there pull-out procedures established for such scenarios? By pull-out, I mean, if an approach is called off or a serious incident happens during a departure.

Thanks.

13 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineBoeing7E7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (8 years 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 1933 times:

Quoting BOE773 (Thread starter):
For an airport such as DFW with quad approach/depart capability, are there pull-out procedures established for such scenarios? By pull-out, I mean, if an approach is called off or a serious incident happens during a departure.

DFW is only triples, the inner runways are close parallels and considered a single runway for arrivals. In VFR they permit quad departures for Group III and smaller aircraft with a slight departure offset (one starts and once rolling another can start). The procedure is to climb straight out. Denver long term will be able to provide quads as would DFW with a new East runway but that'll be years from now. ORD modernization is supposed to support quads from day one of completion.


User currently offlineMDorBust From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (8 years 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 1931 times:

DFW ILS RWY 18R

MISSED APPROACH
Climb to 5000 via TTT R-176 to JASPA INT/TTT 35 DME


User currently offlineBOE773 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (8 years 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 1880 times:

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 1):

It was my understanding that DFW had approval for quad approaches/departs.


User currently offlineApodino From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 4234 posts, RR: 6
Reply 4, posted (8 years 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 1794 times:

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 1):
DFW is only triples, the inner runways are close parallels and considered a single runway for arrivals. In VFR they permit quad departures for Group III and smaller aircraft with a slight departure offset (one starts and once rolling another can start). The procedure is to climb straight out. Denver long term will be able to provide quads as would DFW with a new East runway but that'll be years from now. ORD modernization is supposed to support quads from day one of completion.

But in the south config, you have 13R, 18R, 17C and 17L and in the North Config, you have 31R, 35R, 35C and 36L. That sounds like quads in either direction to me.


User currently offlineBoeing7E7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (8 years 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 1685 times:

Quoting Apodino (Reply 4):
But in the south config, you have 13R, 18R, 17C and 17L and in the North Config, you have 31R, 35R, 35C and 36L. That sounds like quads in either direction to me.

The runways are too close together for quads. These arrivals are therefore offset even through all four runways can be used for arrivals. For them to be completely independent you need 1,200' of runway separation for VFR, 2,500' for wake turbulence, 3,000' for IFR with rapid update radar and 4,300' standard IFR. This is why DFW is triples for arrivals. For quad departures the separation is 750' in VFR so technically DFW can do 5 independent departures in VFR.

Quoting BOE773 (Reply 3):
It was my understanding that DFW had approval for quad approaches/departs.

Nope. They are dependent arrivals, but not independent arrivals to the close parallels.


User currently offlineApodino From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 4234 posts, RR: 6
Reply 6, posted (8 years 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 1613 times:

I just measured the distances on a to scale airport diagram. Runways 35C and 35R are over 5000' apart, 35C and 36L are about 2 miles apart. Obviously in a south configuration 13R is independent and they would use a converging ILS in all but the worst weather which would mean you have seperation on a missed from 18L departures.

A north configuration could be a bit trickier since the missed approach path of 35R takes you over the midfield point of 31R and a converging procedure would almost have to be a turn to 140 to avoid traffic approaching that runway.

But if the runways are that far apart, and by your own admission the minimum you need is 4300', where do you get that they still can't do quads? Assuming of course 13R is the fourth runway? Also the Jeppesen plates do indicate similtaneous approaches are authorized.


While I have you, on an similar but unrelated note, I noticed on the ATL plates that came out after 10-28 opened something strange. Lets take the east config for example. The ILS to 10 says that Similtaneous approaches are authorized with either of the 8's or 9L, but 9R is not mentioned. Does this mean that if the need to use 10, that they have to use 9L for arrival and 9R for departure, meaning landing on an inboard, and departing on an outboard? This isn;t the norm in ATL and its not the norm in most places that use a parallel setup.


User currently offlineBOE773 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (8 years 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 1529 times:

What's the FAA's min. separation distance for parallel rwy. ops?
Thks.


User currently offlinePHLapproach From Philippines, joined Mar 2004, 1240 posts, RR: 20
Reply 8, posted (8 years 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 1500 times:

4,300' for simultaneous and thats all conditions no PRM. 1,200 for 1.5NM staggered separation.

User currently offlineBOE773 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (8 years 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 1494 times:

Quoting PHLapproach (Reply 8):

Thanks for that info, PHLapproach.


User currently offlineBHMNONREV From Australia, joined Aug 2003, 1368 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (8 years 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 1485 times:

Quoting Apodino (Reply 4):
and in the North Config, you have 31R, 35R, 35C and 36L.

I'm not sure how often it occurs, but I flew into DFW several years ago and this was taking place. It looked like 36L, 35C and 35R were being used pretty heavily for arrivals, while my AA MD-80 dropped in on 31R. It looked like for every four to five arrivals on the other three they would put one on 31R. However, the weather was clear, with unlimited visibility.

I have never seen a quad departure from DFW...


User currently offlineBoeing7E7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (8 years 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 1445 times:

Quoting Apodino (Reply 6):
But if the runways are that far apart, and by your own admission the minimum you need is 4300', where do you get that they still can't do quads? Assuming of course 13R is the fourth runway? Also the Jeppesen plates do indicate similtaneous approaches are authorized.



Quoting Apodino (Reply 6):
just measured the distances on a to scale airport diagram. Runways 35C and 35R are over 5000' apart, 35C and 36L are about 2 miles apart. Obviously in a south configuration 13R is independent and they would use a converging ILS in all but the worst weather which would mean you have seperation on a missed from 18L departures.

A north configuration could be a bit trickier since the missed approach path of 35R takes you over the midfield point of 31R and a converging procedure would almost have to be a turn to 140 to avoid traffic approaching that runway.

But if the runways are that far apart, and by your own admission the minimum you need is 4300', where do you get that they still can't do quads? Assuming of course 13R is the fourth runway? Also the Jeppesen plates do indicate similtaneous approaches are authorized.


While I have you, on an similar but unrelated note, I noticed on the ATL plates that came out after 10-28 opened something strange. Lets take the east config for example. The ILS to 10 says that Similtaneous approaches are authorized with either of the 8's or 9L, but 9R is not mentioned. Does this mean that if the need to use 10, that they have to use 9L for arrival and 9R for departure, meaning landing on an inboard, and departing on an outboard? This isn;t the norm in ATL and its not the norm in most places that use a parallel setup.

1. Any cross runway where the runway surface or the approach and departure surfaces intersect are "dependent" runways. Thus:

a. 13R is a "dependent" runway on all five north/south parallels.
b. 13L is a "dependent" runway on all five north/south parallels.
c. All north/south parallels are dependent on 13/31 RL.

Cross runways are "always" dependent.

Arrivals/Departures must be offset in any configuration using these runways.

2. 18RL/36RL are "dependent" pairs. As such, simultaneous arrivals and departures must be offset. However, an arrival to one runway and departure on the close parallel are "independent"; meaning a plane could be landing on 18R/36L and another could be departing on 18L/36R. Under VFR conditions "only" can departures be permitted simultaneously on these runways for aircraft that do not produce wake turbulence, but not arrivals. Arrivals require 1,200' for 737 and down sized aircraft, heavies require 2500' of separation in VFR conditions. In IFR its 3,000' minimum with rapid update radar, 4,300' without.

3. 17RC/35LC are dependent pairs. As such, simultaneous arrivals/departures must be offset. Same operational mode as Item #2.

4. 17L/35R is an independent runway from the close parallels, but it's operations are "dependent" on the operations of 13/31 RL.

DFW does not support Quad simultaneous "independent" operations in any configuration. ORD when complete will have a sixth parallel runway that will allow Quads. The location equivalent to the layout of DFW would be west of the 18/36 pairs. This will allow Quad Independent Arrivals or Quad Independent Departures, mixed with dual departures. Or, Quad Independent departures and dual arrivals. Or a mix of those modes.


User currently offlineBHMNONREV From Australia, joined Aug 2003, 1368 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (8 years 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 1412 times:

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 11):
The location equivalent to the layout of DFW would be west of the 18/36 pairs. This will allow Quad Independent Arrivals or Quad Independent Departures, mixed with dual departures. Or, Quad Independent departures and dual arrivals. Or a mix of those modes.

Is this the long rumored 8th runway for DFW? If this ever comes online, will it spell the end of 13R/31L, probably the least used runway at DFW?


User currently offlineBoeing7E7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (8 years 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 1385 times:

Quoting BHMNONREV (Reply 12):
Is this the long rumored 8th runway for DFW? If this ever comes online, will it spell the end of 13R/31L, probably the least used runway at DFW?

No. It's the new ORD layout. ORD will look like DFW turned 90 degrees with the 8th runway.


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