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Finnair's B757s Get Winglets  
User currently offlineLordHowe From Finland, joined Jan 2003, 728 posts, RR: 1
Posted (8 years 3 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 4824 times:

Finnair announced today that they will install winglets to all their seven Boeing 757-200s. According to AY this will reduce fuel consumption and also make these aircrafts more environment friendly.

The istallations start in the beginning of autumn.

I guess this means that AY is going to keep these aircrafts for a long time ...

Regards,
LordHowe


Lord Howe Island - The Last Paradise
47 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCHRISBA777ER From UK - England, joined Mar 2001, 5964 posts, RR: 62
Reply 1, posted (8 years 3 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 4793 times:

Also means they have a more capable Long Haul bird if need be - although the PW's on there wont help.


What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
User currently offlineEnginesrus From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 82 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (8 years 3 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 4720 times:

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 1):
Also means they have a more capable Long Haul bird if need be - although the PW's on there wont help.

Now why would you say that?


User currently offlineOHLBU From Finland, joined Jan 2005, 226 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (8 years 3 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 4563 times:

I was wondering when will they install them, as AY's 752s do mostly long legs during the winter the winglets must save a nice amount of fuel on yearly basis. OH-LBV and BX will look great with the new wings, I just hope they would paint the others in the fleet to the new Finnair colours.

Quoting LordHowe (Thread starter):
I guess this means that AY is going to keep these aircrafts for a long time ...

Winglets will probably also add to their residual, but then again they are all leased to Finnair. The future of Finnair's leisure operations depends on what kind of deal they can make with the unions, with current costs AY can't compete with other carriers in the charter market. If it wasn't for AY's own tour operator Aurinkomatkat the leisure flight ops would have been long gone. Now that the MD-80s have left the fleet some charters are flown with A320-family aircraft, which have all too high operating costs as they have the spacey AY scheduled pitch.

IMO it wouldn't be a bad idea to transfer a couple of the 752s to scheduled traffic with a two-class cabin, to operate HEL-JFK and maybe some other Trans-Atlantic routes. Some European routes could also every now and then use a bigger capacity than the A321 .


User currently offlineLordHowe From Finland, joined Jan 2003, 728 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (8 years 3 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 4426 times:

Quoting OHLBU (Reply 3):
IMO it wouldn't be a bad idea to transfer a couple of the 752s to scheduled traffic with a two-class cabin, to operate HEL-JFK and maybe some other Trans-Atlantic routes.

That is exactly what I was thinking too - and my guess is that is what they are going to do as soon as it is possible.

Regards,
LordHowe



Lord Howe Island - The Last Paradise
User currently offlineAirplaneBoy From United States of America, joined May 2004, 566 posts, RR: 10
Reply 5, posted (8 years 3 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 4403 times:

Wow! Another 757 winglet operator, or 'to be' operator. I really do think the winglets look great on the 757. Does anyone have a list of all carriers who have ordered them?

Cheers!


User currently offlineCHRISBA777ER From UK - England, joined Mar 2001, 5964 posts, RR: 62
Reply 6, posted (8 years 3 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 4312 times:

Quoting Enginesrus (Reply 2):
Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 1):
Also means they have a more capable Long Haul bird if need be - although the PW's on there wont help.


Now why would you say that?

Generally, the PW birds burn more fuel than the Rolls-powered birds - hence will have less range. A wingletted PW bird will have less range than a wingletted Rolls-powered bird.

B757 Engines: LCC Differences PW And RR (by Tangowhisky Jul 25 2006 in Civil Aviation)



What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
User currently offlineWSOY From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (8 years 3 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 4214 times:

Quoting OHLBU (Reply 3):
I was wondering when will they install them, as AY's 752s do mostly long legs during the winter the winglets must save a nice amount of fuel on yearly basis.

"757-200 Blended Winglet Production Currently Sold Out to Q2 2007

SEATTLE, July 17 /PRNewswire/ -- Finnair has placed 7 firm orders, plus 2 options, for Aviation Partners Boeing Blended Winglet Systems. Installations, which are likely to be performed by Finnair Technical Services in Helsinki, will begin in October 2006 and complete August 2007."
http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/060717/sfm030.html?.v=58

Note the "2 options".


User currently offlineWSOY From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (8 years 3 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 4173 times:

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 6):
Generally, the PW birds burn more fuel than the Rolls-powered birds - hence will have less range. A wingletted PW bird will have less range than a wingletted Rolls-powered bird.

B757 Engines: LCC Differences PW And RR (by Tangowhisky Jul 25 2006 in Civil Aviation)

I didn't find any hard data in that thread. On the contrary, I was able to locate some quite contrary info. Where did you find the wingletted comparative data?


"Why so much lower fuel burn of the PW2037 series vs. the RB211-535.
How is this so? The PW2037 is the first commercial engine with single crystal turbine blades! Sometimes it hurts to be first.

http://www.alair.com/Commercial/pw2000.html
http://www.alair.com/Commercial/rb535.html

The RR gets a fairly poor cruise TSFC of 0.607. Good thing the 757 is very aerodynamic! The Pratt? Cruise TSFC of 0.563. Yes, a ~7% advantage to Pratt! That's huge! "

from: http://www.airdisaster.com/forums/showpost.php?p=419194&postcount=373


User currently offlineSNATH From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 3247 posts, RR: 22
Reply 9, posted (8 years 3 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 4114 times:

Quoting WSOY (Reply 7):
Finnair has placed 7 firm orders, plus 2 options

I thought Finnair had 5 B757-200s. www.airfleets.net indicates they have 6. Why are they ordering 7 + 2?

Tony



Nikon: we don't want more pixels, we want better pixels.
User currently offlineWSOY From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (8 years 3 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 4082 times:

Quoting SNATH (Reply 9):
thought Finnair had 5 B757-200s. www.airfleets.net indicates they have 6. Why are they ordering 7 + 2?

They have indeed 7. http://www.finnairgroup.com/konserni/konserni_9_9.html
One has been leased to various British charter operators flying out of MAN for some years (or seasons) though.

[Edited 2006-07-26 14:32:32]

User currently offlineOHLBU From Finland, joined Jan 2005, 226 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (8 years 3 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 3991 times:

Quoting WSOY (Reply 7):
Note the "2 options".

Interesting, so they have something up their sleeve regarding the 752 ops.


User currently offlineLTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 13864 posts, RR: 50
Reply 12, posted (8 years 3 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 3989 times:

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 1):
Also means they have a more capable Long Haul bird if need be - although the PW's on there wont help.

I believe AY actually has the PW2040, and not the PW2037, which means they can be -certified for full 757-200 MTOW and could pretty much fly the same routes CO's wingletted 757s fly.

Great news for AY! About time they put some winglets on their 752s.


User currently offlineLordHowe From Finland, joined Jan 2003, 728 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (8 years 3 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 3947 times:

Quoting WSOY (Reply 10):
They have indeed 7. http://www.finnairgroup.com/konserni....html

Interesting ...

The list is dated July 4th 2006! Yet there is no mention of Airbus 340-300 which started taraffic on June 19th and they still list MD80s which flew their last flight on July 3rd 2006!

Wake up Finnair!

Regards,
LordHowe



Lord Howe Island - The Last Paradise
User currently offlineSkymonster From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (8 years 3 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 3927 times:

Quoting AirplaneBoy (Reply 5):
Does anyone have a list of all carriers who have ordered them?

I believe so far its:

* American Airlines
* Continental Airlines
* Finnair
* Icelandair
* Sun Express
* plus exec N770BB

Andy


User currently offlineWSOY From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (8 years 3 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 3920 times:

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 12):
I believe AY actually has the PW2040, and not the PW2037, which means they can be -certified for full 757-200 MTOW and could pretty much fly the same routes CO's wingletted 757s fly.

True, that seems to be the case: Link

-LBV and -LBX have an MTOW of 115892 kgs, the others 115666 kgs.
http://www.ilmailuhallinto.fi/files/...kaisusarja_L/Rekisteriote_2006.pdf


User currently offlineSNATH From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 3247 posts, RR: 22
Reply 16, posted (8 years 3 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 3900 times:

Quoting WSOY (Reply 10):

Ah, thanks for the clarification!

Tony



Nikon: we don't want more pixels, we want better pixels.
User currently offlineKilljoy From Finland, joined Dec 1999, 646 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (8 years 3 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 3861 times:

Quoting LordHowe (Reply 13):
Wake up Finnair!

Come on, someone probably just accidentally pasted an old version onto that page. The main fleet page shows pictures of the correct aircraft.


User currently offlineDLBOIFIN From Finland, joined Jun 2006, 166 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (8 years 3 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 3791 times:

Quoting OHLBU (Reply 3):
IMO it wouldn't be a bad idea to transfer a couple of the 752s to scheduled traffic with a two-class cabin, to operate HEL-JFK and maybe some other Trans-Atlantic routes. Some European routes could also every now and then use a bigger capacity than the A321 .

Yes, that has crossed my mind aswell. Would make sence to config few 757 for scheduled flights and start HEL-JFK on those. It would free one M11 to Asian expansion. What about the range issue, I am not sure if wingletted 757 can make HEL-JFK nonstop during the heavy winter headwinds...? This same issue is discussed also in regards with CO possible entry to HEL. At the moment CO's longest 757 flight is EWR-TXL and EWR-HEL is about 100 nm longer.


User currently offlineWSOY From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (8 years 3 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 3753 times:

Quoting LordHowe (Reply 13):
still list MD80s which flew their last flight on July 3rd 2006!

On the page, 8 out of 10 have been correctly asterisked as belonging to Air Scandic. Of the two remaining, we read in the news that one has been standing in readiness for evacuation flights to the Middle East, so their story is not quite over yet. Traditionally, ex-AY a/c have sold quickly.


User currently offlineGkirk From UK - Scotland, joined Jun 2000, 24947 posts, RR: 56
Reply 20, posted (8 years 3 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 3725 times:

Quoting WSOY (Reply 10):
They have indeed 7. http://www.finnairgroup.com/konserni/konserni_9_9.html
One has been leased to various British charter operators flying out of MAN for some years (or seasons) though

2 are currently operating out of Newcastle (NCL) for Excel Airways, OH-LBS in particular has been having a few problems recently also.



When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
User currently offlineN801DM From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 103 posts, RR: 3
Reply 21, posted (8 years 3 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 3606 times:

Hi everyone,

N801DM is now flying with winglets. On her first international trip in EGPK. See pic below of the aircraft after install!

Regards,

N801DM
Big version: Width: 2288 Height: 1712 File size: 796kb


User currently offlineAirplaneBoy From United States of America, joined May 2004, 566 posts, RR: 10
Reply 22, posted (8 years 3 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 3580 times:

Quoting Skymonster (Reply 14):
I believe so far its:

* American Airlines
* Continental Airlines
* Finnair
* Icelandair
* Sun Express
* plus exec N770BB

Andy

Thank you for the list Andy!  Smile


User currently offlineLordHowe From Finland, joined Jan 2003, 728 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (8 years 3 months 8 hours ago) and read 3451 times:

Quoting WSOY (Reply 19):
belonging to Air Scandic. Of the two remaining, we read in the news that one has been standing in readiness for evacuation flights to the Middle East, so their story is not quite over yet. Traditionally, ex-AY a/c have sold quickly.

With all due respect: Actually it is "flynordic" ... but anyway the scheduled trafic for AY's MD80s is over now. The last scheduled flight was in the beginning of July HEL-ARN.

But - tell me how is it really possible to just add winglets to an aircarft? The wing is really the most important part of an aircraft - isn't it? - so how can you just take something out of it and then put something else instead?

And that Finnair technics can do this job? - and not the manufacturer? ...

Regards,
LordHowe



Lord Howe Island - The Last Paradise
User currently offlineLordHowe From Finland, joined Jan 2003, 728 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (8 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 3302 times:

Sorry for repeating myself but, I'd really wish that someone could answer this...

"But - tell me how is it possible to just add winglets to an aircarft? The wing is really the most important part of an aircraft - isn't it? - so how can you just take something out of it and then put something else instead?

And that Finnair technics can do this job? - and not the manufacturer? ...

Regards,
LordHowe"



Lord Howe Island - The Last Paradise
25 Gigneil : That's only partly right. The lower range is generally because of lower thrust and lower MTOW. The PW2000 is more fuel efficient, but also slightly w
26 LTU932 : Well, I believe AA does the retrofits on their 738s and 752s themselves at TUL. AFAIK, the manufacturer only installs the winglets when the aircraft
27 Wjcandee : If you look at the Boeing web site at the technical data graphs, this seems to be exactly opposite. The RB211-535C aircraft have the worst range. The
28 Post contains links OHLBU : Finnair's technical department is a complete maintenance, overhaul and repair shop, so they can basically do anything to a plane. Remember, they just
29 LTU932 : That was the very first RB211-535 Series engine for the 757 and is rated at more or less the same thrust as the PW2037. Once the -535E4 was available
30 WSOY : Well, it was a normal C4 check that was made almost a year before it was actually due. Although it took about twice the time of an routine C4 check,
31 Post contains images A340600 : Will look lovely. One of their birds in the not so nice old colours has been flying around LGW lately for EZY mostly doing the ATH flights, Sam
32 Jetset7E7 : This will be OH-LBS operating for Excel Airways based at NCL. Mark
33 AC320tech : Finnair flies into YHZ on a charter run between YHZ, HEL and Santo Domingo in the winter season, so if they come back next year I will have to get a p
34 LTU932 : I can't tell you where because I don't know, but in this case it's an issue discussed frequently here in Tech/Ops.
35 MAH4546 : Last year it was HEL-YHZ-MIA, with no traffic rights into/out of YHZ. No word on this year, though.
36 AC320tech : Sorry, I should have put MIA. Wasnt it a tech stop? I heard they picked up pax.[Edited 2006-07-31 01:58:44]
37 WSOY : So I'd gather no true comparative data on the present on-wing time and reliability (whatever we mean by it) on the RR/PWs is not readily available? Y
38 LTU932 : I don't think so. You could only get those from mechanics, pilots or from directly from the manufacturers, but I never found any such information ava
39 MCOflyer : I think they leased 2 other PW2040 757's that were prevously with Mexicana. So thats where 9 comes from. Someone correct me if im wrong. MCOflyer[Edit
40 WSOY : I feel that it should be clearly indicated as non-verified information, or even good ole hearsay, or even the potential flamebating "RR beat the Yank
41 Post contains images Jetset7E7 : The companion is OH-LBO Mark
42 Post contains images Gkirk : Until September 3rd(?), when OH-LBO returns to HEL, and G-FJEB returns to NCL
43 Lhrmaccoll : Fabulous. I think the 757 with winglets is one of the best looking commercial airliners in operation today. Especially when landing. Looks like a bird
44 Barbro : I think cargo-capacity is of concern also with Finnair. The MD-11 sure beats the B757 on that department.... Even if the seats are not filling up, th
45 Post contains images Gkirk : Should have added, OH-LBS is suffering quite a lot of technical delays recently
46 Post contains links WSOY : A lot? I saw one 23 hour delay around Jun 24 mentioned, but the delays will no doubt lag over the next few days. I'm somewhat surprised of the news b
47 Jetset7E7 : It suffered an anti skid failure so had to divert to MAN and nightstop, that was a few weeks back tho. mark
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